You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

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Buddy Reads > When Christ and his Saints Slept

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message 1: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Myself and Sarah are going to be reading When Christ and His Saints Slept by Sharon Kay Penman in March. The start date is March 15th. All are welcome to join us :)


message 2: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments I enjoyed this a lot and can't wait to read it again and actually discuss it with others this time =]


message 3: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments This will be my first time reading it. I'm really looking forward to it. I loved our previous buddy read of The Sunne in Splendour - A Novel of Richard III


message 4: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Oh yes, that was a great read, and I loved that too. Sharon Penman is awesome =D


message 5: by Janice, Moderator (new)

Janice (jamasc) | 48041 comments It sounds really good. I've added it to my wishlist, but I'm not sure I'll be able to join in on the buddy read.


message 6: by Sarah (last edited Mar 15, 2016 09:30AM) (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Do you think you will join us Janice?

My version is quite an old one, my mom gave me one from her shelf published in 1995 this one: When Christ and His Saints Slept (Henry II & Eleanor of Aquitaine, #1) by Sharon Kay Penman It's crazy it was £6.99 at the time for a big chunky paperback at 909 pages =P

Which one do you have Lisa? I hope it has a map at the beginning, family tree and a section for Historical Characters. I defo needed that, it can get confusing with all the Henry's and William's lol.

I'll start soon.


message 7: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I have it on my kindle, it has a family tree and a map but I don't think there is a section for the historical characters. Unless it's at the end... Luckily, I know this period of history quite well and I have a couple of non fiction books on this period so I can always check those if I get confused (which I probably will, hehe).

I need to finish the last 20 or so pages in the book I am currently reading and then I will make a start on this. Probably won't get very far tonight but you never know :)


message 8: by Janice, Moderator (new)

Janice (jamasc) | 48041 comments I'm going to have to pass. I just started a chunkster and I have another book to read before I could even think of starting this one.


message 9: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Aww shame you can't join in Janice =[

Ooh I didn't know you had it on Kindle, how many pages does it have? Oh good glad you have at least the map and the family tree. Perhaps it could be at the end yes. I don't know so much about this part of history so I kow I'll have to keep referring to that section again and again but it is a good book. I can't wait to read it again and then continue with the series. My mom has lent me the 2nd one and I may be able to borrow the 3rd and 4th too and I got her the 5th which she already had so now I have it =]

I have about 70 or so pages to go in my current book but I may just start this now and read a chapter, if I remember correctly the chapters are quite lengthy.


message 10: by Lisa (last edited Mar 15, 2016 05:14PM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments It says it has 746 pages which seems quite a bit shorter than the paperback. I'm not sure why that's the case, unless the character lists in the paperback account for those extra pages? I hope this isn't a shortened version. I might buy a copy of the paperback, just in case.

I am up to the beginning of Chapter 2. From what I read in the prologue and Chapter 1, I think I am going to love it! The writing and the attention to detail is stunning! It literally feels as though you have been transported back to the 12th century.

Prologue & Chapter 1 - (view spoiler)


message 11: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I am up to Chapter 5.

(view spoiler)

I am really enjoying this so far. It's so good!


message 12: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments The Historical Charactersin this book is 2 pages long. Oh I'm not sure then, hopefully it's not the shortened version. How many chapters are in the book do you know?

I am up to Chapter 5 to haha =]

(view spoiler)

I'm glad you're enjoying it, I thought you would =] I'm actually ejoying it even more than before too, I rated it 4 stars before it may change this time round. I love how Sharron writes, it does come accross as very realistic and there is enough description to really set the scenes and the characters and it's not other the top, she's got that to a tee.


message 13: by Lisa (last edited Mar 17, 2016 08:54AM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Sarah wrote: "The Historical Charactersin this book is 2 pages long. Oh I'm not sure then, hopefully it's not the shortened version. How many chapters are in the book do you know?

I am up to Chapter 5 to haha ..."


I can't remember the exact number of chapters but I think it was at least 40.

Yes, (view spoiler)

I'm glad you are enjoying it even more this time around :) I agree, Sharon knows how to set a scene without info dumping. You can see everything and everyone really clearly but you never feel as though she has included something just to show off her knowledge. It always adds something to the story.


message 14: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Mine has 58 chapters. Woah!

(view spoiler)

Me too. It's even harder to put down, the story just grabs you and pulls you in. It really does take you back to that time, like you're living it and seeing it as if it's happening.


message 15: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I've just checked and mine has 58 chapters too, so it's not a shortened version. Yay!


message 16: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Oh good, glad yours has the same amount of chapters. Yippee =]

I'm up to Chapter 7 now, I had some time for reading this afternoon and I'll be having a lovely bubble bath soon and do some more reading in there too hehe.

Chapter 5: (view spoiler)

Chapter 6: (view spoiler)


message 17: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I'm up to Chapter 8 now. Only another 50 to go! Hehe.

Chapter 5 - (view spoiler)

Chapter 6 - (view spoiler)

(view spoiler)

I really like Matilda too. She seems to be coming more into her own now and she is a good match for Stephen.

(view spoiler)


message 18: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I am at the beginning of Chapter 12.

There are some seriously good female characters in this book! I think Matilda is my favourite so far. She is a rock to Stephen and I love how he depends upon her and looks to her for support. (view spoiler) I like Maude but I find her frustrating sometimes. I just wish she would listen to people a bit more than she does. I admire her strength and her iron will but her inability to heed advice is a major flaw.

(view spoiler)

(view spoiler)

I hate to say this but I actually quite like Geoffrey. (view spoiler)

(view spoiler)


message 19: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Defintely love the female characters in this book, they take their lives into their own hads, even the women at the beginning, Geoffrey's mistress and I can't remember her name now but the lady who woud have worn the nun's habit. I love Matilda, she reminds me of Anne in 'The Sunne in Splendour'. Eleanor will be fun to meet =D

(view spoiler)


message 20: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I am now at the beginning of Chapter 20, which is 40% of the way through.

I agree, Matilda definitely reminds me of Anne Neville. They have similar personalities and strengths.

(view spoiler)

(view spoiler)

(view spoiler)

(view spoiler)


message 21: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I am up to Chapter 39 now.

(view spoiler)

I was so sad when (view spoiler)

(view spoiler)

As much as I like Stephen and Matilda, the same cannot be said of their eldest son, Eustace. There is something about him that I really don't like. (view spoiler)

(view spoiler)


message 22: by Sarah (last edited Mar 27, 2016 06:18PM) (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments I'm at Chapter 23 now =]

I would love to read TSIS again. Maybe I will do so the beginning of next year perhaps. I haven't read my new copy yet the same was as you I think =D with a beautiful blue cover.

(view spoiler)

You're getting very close to the end now, do you wish to read the 2nd one soon?


message 23: by Lisa (last edited Mar 28, 2016 03:14PM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments (view spoiler)

I'm hoping to finish this in the next few days. Would it be okay if we read the second one in May? I have a couple of other buddy reads to do in April so it's looking a bit full at the moment. Would that be good for you? How about starting May 7th?


message 24: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments I thought William Marshall has been mentioned.. I think.. lol. Too many William's and sometimes people are referred to by teir last names or their Earldom, can get a bit confusing at times.

Yes May sounds good, I have 3 buddy reads myself one that started yesterday Red Queen if yoou're interested I think I saw that on your shelf. And then the Scarab one for the Egypt geocache site and Throne of Glass at the end of April. So May 7th sounds great. I get my hair dyed red that day too hehe =]


message 25: by Lisa (last edited Mar 28, 2016 03:14PM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments A William Marshal has been mentioned but I'm fairly certain it is a different William. The famous William Marshal was born around 1146 so he would only have been 8 or 9 when the war between Stephen and Maude ended.

Thanks for the heads up on the Red Queen buddy read. I think I will give it a miss though as I'm not really in the mood for reading it right now. I will be interested to know what you think of it, it seems to get mixed reviews. I am taking part in the The Clockwork Scarab buddy read too.

Okay, May 7th it is then for Time and Chance. It's quite a bit shorter than this book by the looks of it. My kindle edition has around 540 pages. That's exciting about the red hair! Are you having it done professionally or are you using a home colour? What shade are you going? I dye my hair red sometimes, I use Loreal Casting Creme Gloss in Cherry Red and it turns out really nice and lasts for quite a while too. However, I'm thinking I might treat myself later in the year and get it done professionally for my birthday.


message 26: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments I am up to Chapter 55 now.

(view spoiler)

I am loving the (view spoiler)

(view spoiler)

Going back a few chapters, I'm so pleased that (view spoiler)


message 27: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Ah okay. It can get a little confusing. I do refer to the beginning of the book at lot, with the historical characters.

Your welcome. Fair enough, it is on a lot of lists but maybe they either haven't seen the thread or not interested at this time. No worries though. Oh kewl =] I hope it'll be a good read.

Yes it is shorter. I have to find it though, I think I packed it, but I haven't sealed the boxes so shoudn't be too hard to find. I am having it done professionally yes. I've never had it red before, black, cosmic black that looked dark blue in the light and purple. The purple didn't look very purple though, I had darker brown hair at the time. I have seen that Cherry Red it looks nice. I think I liked the look of the Dark Cherry. But I don't want to do it myself, and I've ever had my hair coloured professionally. I can't remember the colour but it is Loreal too. That's good that it lasted quite a while. I don't actually know what you look like, what is your natural hair colour? That sounds nice to treat yoursel for your bday =D go for it. Have you dyed your hair other colours?


message 28: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments I'm up to Chapter 37 now.

(view spoiler)


message 29: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments My natural hair colour is a light brown but it does have a bit of natural red in it too which can only seen under certain light. I haven't dyed it red for a while but I have a box of colour at home so I might do it again soon. I am getting it cut next week so I will probably do it after that. I used to get highlights done when I was a teenager so my hair went quite blonde for a while from those but apart from that, I have either left it natural or dyed it red. I always wanted to dye it a really bright colour, like pink, but I never did. You will have to post a pic of your red hair once it's done. I reckon it will really suit you :)


message 30: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Ooh okay =] I've wanted to dye my hair bright colours too, green at one point but I really like this bright blue I keep seeing, I've have to bleache or lighten my hair for that though, but I have seriously considered it =D How long is your hair at the moment? I shall post a pic of my hair when it's done. I think it would suit me, I'm going for a dark red first and then if Ilike that I mght go brighter red later on.


message 31: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments I'm at Chapter 46 now, and I've read your spoilers for when you got to Chapter 39 Sorry some of what I said in my previous message you aready wrote about.. whoops.

(view spoiler)


message 32: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Sarah wrote: "Ooh okay =] I've wanted to dye my hair bright colours too, green at one point but I really like this bright blue I keep seeing, I've have to bleache or lighten my hair for that though, but I have s..."

I think that's what put me off dying my hair a bright colour like pink, I was worried about bleaching it. Hehe, you should definitely dye your hair bright blue one day ;) My hair is pretty long at the moment, it's about halfway down my back but I'm getting it cut shorter next week, probably up to my shoulders. It's lost condition pretty badly due to my illness and nothing seems to be working so the only option left is to chop a few inches off.


message 33: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Me too. I don't want to bleach my hair. I shall defo do so one day, maybe underneath or something. Ah kewl, I love long hair, I had my hair cut a few weeks ago and it reached the top of my bum lol. It was full of split ends and really fine, I hadn't had it cut in over a year, but since it's been cut it's lovely, It's still quite long, halfway down my back. But it feels thicker and the ends look nice now. Have you heard of the Tangle Teezer? My ahir used to get so knotty being long, and since I got one of them they get the knots out of my hair really well, although I think it work best on wet hair.

Aww it's a shame it's lost condition, what shampoo and conditioner do you use?


message 34: by Lisa (last edited Mar 30, 2016 08:29AM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Sarah wrote: "I'm at Chapter 46 now, and I've read your spoilers for when you got to Chapter 39 Sorry some of what I said in my previous message you aready wrote about.. whoops.

I loved her escape too. It was g..."


I'm really looking forward to reading the 'Welsh Princes' trilogy, particularly now I know that some characters from here will turn up in those :) Yes, I would love to read them over the summer if that's still okay for you? We should be able to get the last two books from this trilogy finished by then, I reckon.

(view spoiler)

I finished last night, as you know :) (view spoiler)

I found Stephen's death really sad. I liked him, I really did. He wasn't cut out to be a king but his heart was in the right place. It's a shame that his time as King brought him no pleasure. I thought it was a pity that Henry didn't get to spend more time with him before he died. They seemed to have gotten on pretty well, despite their differences. There was respect between them, I think.

I was glad that Ranulf turned down a potential English earldom and returned with his family to Wales. I hope we meet them again in the next book.

So, Henry is now King of England, Eleanor is his queen and his friendship with Thomas Becket has begun. Everything is in place for Book #2. I can't wait for our buddy read in May!


message 35: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Sarah wrote: "Me too. I don't want to bleach my hair. I shall defo do so one day, maybe underneath or something. Ah kewl, I love long hair, I had my hair cut a few weeks ago and it reached the top of my bum lol...."

Wow, your hair was really long! I have quite thick hair but the ends are looking stringy now and it's full of split ends and it just looks really dull and lifeless. I had it trimmed just before Christmas yet it now looks as though I haven't had it cut for years. I have tried just about every shampoo and conditioner you can imagine. At the moment, I am using Tresemme Moisture Rich and it's nice but it's not really helping. My hairdresser said that when you are ill, your hair and nails often suffer. Mine were okay initially but I think they are feeling the effects of it now. Hopefully a decent cut will make it feel a lot better. What shampoo/conditioner do you use? Yes, I have heard of the Tangle Teezer. I keep meaning to buy myself one.


message 36: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Oh goodie. I look forward to reading the Welsh Princes with you. I am going to continue reading the other 2 latest books that follow on in the 5 books series: Lionheart and The King's Ransom.

No the medieval ages were quite dangerous. I have wanted to go back there too, I'd not want to be a woman in those times that's for sure. Even Princesses and Queens back then had to marry who they were told pretty much. And anyone not of high-birth boy that had it really rough. Maybe go back in time and be a ghost and see it all, but maybe not live it.

I'll read your comments when I'm a bit closer to the end. But I really did think Rhiannon was great =] I liked it when Ranulf was (view spoiler)


message 37: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Lol yes it was super long. I've always grown my hair quite long. I don't think short hair above my shoulders suits me as I have a round face. I wish my hair was thicker, since I became depressed it defo went thinner. So I understand what your hairdresser told you. My nails do break easily, they seem very thin and fragile. I grow those long too haha. Although I just broke 2 today, I can pick things up and my nails can break so easily quite far down, it does hurt a bit. Your hair grows quite quickly then? Awww that's a shame the S&C aren't working so great. I've tried a fair amount, at the moent I'm using Garneir the honey one for damaged hair. I quite like Dove and Pantene but this one was advertised on the TV last year sometime and it actually really helps my hair. Before loads of hair would come out on my hairbrush, so I switched S&C and started using the Tangle Teezer, hardly ny hair comes out now. Phew.. The Tangle Teezer is very good on wet hair. their is a other brand Tangle Angel that works well on dry hair and those one's have long handles, the Teezers are just palm size.


message 38: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Yes, short hair can be difficult on round faces. I have a round face too and when I was a lot younger, I had my hair cut into a bob and it didn't really suit me so I grew it out. That's the shortest I have ever had my hair. I usually have it mid-length or long. Apparently, there is a short hairstyle to suit every face shape, I read about it in a magazine once but I can't remember what suited round faces. I've got a feeling it may have been something super short like a pixie cut and there is no way I am brave enough to go that short. Have you ever tried any thickening or volume shampoos/conditioners? That Garnier shampoo sounds really nice. Hmmm, I think I will get myself a Tangle Teezer, I get quite a lot of hair coming out in my hairbrush too and it sounds as if switching has helped you :) My nails break all the time too, it's a real pain. I paint them sometimes with a Sally Hansen nail strengthener but again, it's not really helping. Yes, my hair grows pretty quickly, thank goodness. What about yours? Hehe, I love the little detour our book discussion has taken! :)


message 39: by Lisa (last edited Mar 30, 2016 10:57AM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Sarah wrote: "Oh goodie. I look forward to reading the Welsh Princes with you. I am going to continue reading the other 2 latest books that follow on in the 5 books series: Lionheart and The King's Ransom.

No t..."


Oh, I didn't realise those two books about Richard the Lionheart were part of this series. I thought they were separate. Whoops! I will probably read them too but I'm not sure when. When were you thinking of reading them? Straight after this series or are you going to wait a while?

Hehe, I think going back as a ghost would probably be the best way to visit the medieval period. At least you wouldn't get set upon by thieves or get caught up in a battle or catch the plague!


message 40: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Haha, how funny. When I was younger too I had a bob and it didn't look right on me at all either. I had a fringe whilst growing up and I grew that out too, I've contemplated having a fringe again but will wait a while, I'm ot sure that would suit my round face. Oh wow pixie, yeh I wouldn't be brave enough to do that. I've always loved long ahir and like you have always grown my hair long too. I think I used to try volume shampoos but haven't in some time, maybe I'll try one of those again. I'll have a look and see if I can find a Garnier one, if not Dove or Pantene. I like those as they are thick and creamy. I used to use Herbal Essences and Alberto Bassam but they are really liquid-y and they didn't do great on my hair.

My hair grows pretty quickly as well =] So if I did have a fringe I think I'd get annoyed with having to get it cut often.

lol me too =D hehe. I like to use Rimmel nail varnish. I have a pretty one at the moment brought as an xmas gift for me by French Connection it's a lovely blue/mauve colour and it glitters in the light. It lasts some time too. Do you paint your nails often?


message 41: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Yep those books continue the trilogy to make the series. Erm. I'm not sure. I think I would like to read them after but I would quite liek to read them with you, so I'll wait for you =]

Yeh don't want the plague.

I'm nearly done now, I was reading last night and fell asleep. I just got to the part when Eustace (view spoiler)

I should finish today. Would you like to set up the next thread for May or shall I?


message 42: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments How are you getting on, Sarah? Did you manage to finish yesterday?

I didn't like (view spoiler)

I agree, some of the food did sound disgusting! A lot of the desserts sounded nice though. I wouldn't have minded trying a few of them.

You can set up the next thread if you like :)


message 43: by Sarah (last edited Apr 06, 2016 07:11AM) (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Hello. Yes I did finish =]

Gave it 4 stars again. I can't wait to continue the series. Very exciting.

Oh I liked him when we got introduced to him and I really liked how he (view spoiler)

Bristol Castle doesn't really exist anymore, there is a place here called Castle Park and there are ruins of a castle left but it's very small. And there are also ruins of a church on Castle Park too. I had a look at what Bristol Castle used to look like, it's a shame it's gone, it looked pretty big and formidable.

Some desserts did sound lovely, like those cinnamon wafers? Yum =P

Oh man yes, I'm so glad Eustace never (view spoiler)

I liked her Afterward too. I didn't know that was her 5th book but then I realised TSIS came first then the Welsh Princes. Are you intrigued to read the de'Quincy mysteries she wrote?


message 44: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Yay! I'm glad you enjoyed it just as much the second time around :)

That's a shame that Bristol Castle is pretty much ruins now. I bet it would have been really impressive in its heyday. I have been past Corfe Castle in Dorset which was mentioned in this book a few times. It is also largely ruined now but it's still pretty impressive. It has a very dark, very brooding feel about it.

Yes, the cinnamon wafers did sound pretty nice. There was another dessert mentioned too that I thought sounded quite nice but I can't remember what it was now.

(view spoiler)

I really enjoyed her afterword too. I liked how she explained the reasons behind any changes she made and how she approached her research. I actually still cannot believe that 'The Sunne in Splendour' was her first novel! I bet there are many authors out there who can only dream of producing something that good as their debut! Tbh, I haven't really looked into the de'Quincy mysteries. I might check them out one day. Are you interested in reading them?


message 45: by Deborah (last edited Apr 09, 2016 03:55PM) (new)

Deborah Pickstone | 529 comments I love this whole series and have read the whole thing several times. I began with The Sunne in Splendour donkey's years ago and then went back and worked forward. SKP is a flawless researcher and the more she writes the better she gets - the Lionheart books (2) at the end are utterly superb!

As to this one - what a fascinating era of history! Poor Maud, I remember feeling outraged on her behalf as a child! Yet she seems to have lacked the people skills and that lost her the crown as much as anything. Had she been like Eleanor of Aquitaine I rather suspect Stephen would be a footnote, not a king and we'd remember her as Queen Maud, woman though she be.

SKP's afterwords are really good and add a lot to the book. I often read them first.

The de Quincy mysteries are good and worth a read.

NB: the cinnamon wafers may be a slight historical error: wafers were an important dessert from the late Middle Ages onwards, made on special wafer irons, often very elaborately patterned.

To Make Wafers

Take Rose-water or other water, the whites of two eggs and beat them and your water, then put in flower, and make them thick as you would do butter for fritters, then season them with salt, and put in so much sugar as will make them sweet, and so cast them upon your irons being hot, and roule them up upon a little pin of wood; if they cleave to your irons, put in more sugar to your butter, for that will make them turn.

You might add cinnamon to your mixture or you might make a cinnamon-flavoured sauce to dip them into :)


message 46: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahlou29) | 1302 comments Yes it is a shame. When we read the Welsh Princes books it's nice because I've visted some of the places in Wales that get mentioned which is always nice to see a castle in real life and can imagine what it may have been like back in the day.

Ah well, I gather from most stories, marriages didn't work out too well in the past, with most of them being arranged and the women being pawns most of the time to gain some lands =/

I know it's so amazing that TSIS was her first. I'm not sure, my mom didn't like them, but I do like a mystery, espeically historical ones. But they'll be put on the back burner for some time before I choose to read them.

I'm really looing forwrad to starting the next one with you =D

Thanks Deborah for the making of wafers =]

I'm glad you enjoyed her series too, she is an incredible author.


message 47: by Deborah (new)

Deborah Pickstone | 529 comments The Richard III mystery has more mysteries attached to it than you can throw a stick at! Who killed the Princes? Aside from Richard I can suggest at least 4 other contenders (and a few more less likely but not impossible). And that is just one of the mysteries. Since she wrote TSIS a lot of years have passed and thinking has changed. I wonder what she might write differently now?


message 48: by Lisa (last edited Apr 14, 2016 02:48AM) (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Deborah wrote: "The Richard III mystery has more mysteries attached to it than you can throw a stick at! Who killed the Princes? Aside from Richard I can suggest at least 4 other contenders (and a few more less li..."

Deborah, I agree, 'The Princes in the Tower' is one of the great mysteries of all time. Many people remain convinced that Richard III was the culprit and whilst it's true that he definitely had the means and the motive, there were plenty of others who stood to gain from their 'disappearance' too. Personally, I think Henry VII was a very likely suspect. The other big question is: were they actually killed? I watched a documentary about Richard III on tv last year and they mentioned in it that the Princes physician was called to the Tower to see Edward (the older of the two) only a few days before they disappeared. Physicians didn't visit people unless they were ill so this visit has led to some people wondering if Edward died of an illness and Richard was then secretly released (or escaped) and went into exile abroad. I guess we will never know but it's certainly plausible.

Thanks for the wafer recipe!


message 49: by Deborah (new)

Deborah Pickstone | 529 comments Exactly! Were they ever killed? I think it entirely possible that Richard removed them from the Tower and sent them North for safety. Where they may have escaped detection - or they may have been found by the usurping dynasty. Henry VII is a likely killer - he killed off everyone else associated with Richard. If he didn't, his mother may have done so during her brief Regency (believe me she would have been able for it) or even Henry VIII who mopped up anyone his father had missed. It is also possible one or both died. I also observe the younger was said to have escaped but I think it very unlikely - though being released by Richard was possible - but not by the Tudors. I think he was killed at leisure many years later by one of the Tudors.


message 50: by Lisa (new)

Lisa (lisathebooklover) | 9244 comments Deborah wrote: "Exactly! Were they ever killed? I think it entirely possible that Richard removed them from the Tower and sent them North for safety. Where they may have escaped detection - or they may have been f..."

Yes, I certainly wouldn't put anything past Margaret Beaufort. She was so determined to see her son on the throne that she would certainly have been willing to do whatever was necessary to put him there. Plus, she hated Richard III so if the opportunity arose to blacken his name still further, I'm sure she would have taken it.

Henry VII faced several uprisings against his kingship in the early years of his reign, often led by pretenders claiming they had a right to the crown, and although he dealt with them, I read somewhere that he never seemed particularly worried or phased by any of them. Until the rebellion led by Perkin Warbeck came along. Warbeck claimed to be the missing Prince Richard and gained a lot of supporters as a result. Sources say that Henry was deeply troubled by Warbeck and he dealt with the rebellion swiftly and decisively, with the ringleaders being executed. Warbeck was imprisoned in the Tower of London and was initially treated well by Henry but after he tried to escape, he was executed in 1499. I wonder why Henry was so troubled by Warbeck and less by the other pretenders? Did he know that Warbeck was Richard?


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