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The Crippled God (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #10)
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Group Read - The Crippled God > TCG: Chapter Twenty Four - No Spoilers

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message 1: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Ch 24 Discussion - I guess saying no spoilers now is rather redundant redundant


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Is not. Epilogues are still to come. Fiddler becomes a fisherman in Malaz City and plays the fiddle at night. So there!


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments By the way, you didn't put an End of Book Discussion thread up, so I'll announce it first here: Done! and my review is here:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...


message 4: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
I was going to have all the epilogues rolled into this thread as well - but that would make the position of spoiler police rather redundant - Don't say I don't do nothing for you Rob.


message 5: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
I've just started the End of book thread. After party is officially in progress - even though I haven't finished reading yet.


message 6: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
I have finished the book. A cruisy flight back on an Emirates A380 whisper jet meant easy reading time.

So.......Tavore a Talon? Or a daughter of an empire? Last time i read this book we got into an argument about this and had to ask Erikson to answer the question.

So are you for or against her belonging to the Talon?


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Definitely Talon. There's been a tension for a long time between Talon and Claw. She was set up well enough to get another Talon to protect Felesin. And things are convoluted enough with Erikson. When he gives a direct explanation for something, I prefer to run with it. She's got a talon, she's a talon. Besides, a deep connection to Shadowthrone and Cotillion is the only way I can make sense out of her extraordinary knowledge.


Linette | 152 comments I agree, Talon.


message 9: by Johny (last edited Apr 29, 2014 11:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Johny (drbo) | 184 comments Oh God. I wrote a big and exhausting summary, but all I get was message "there was a problem in saving your comment." :(

David, please, write a big and detailed summary.


message 10: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Johny wrote: "Oh God. I wrote a big and exhausting summary, but all I get was message "there was a problem in saving your comment." :(

David, please, write a big and detailed summary."



What! You lost your homework? That's no excuse :)

That's why I usually write my summaries in MS Word first and copy and paste over


message 11: by Rob, Quick Ben (last edited Apr 29, 2014 04:59PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
You think I play the spoiler police because it's fun? I do it because I can't help it. :-(

Since I'm the only one who posted in the epilogue thread, it seems like I'm making a separate thread was pointless.

I liked the end, but I'm honestly surprised at how few people of note died.

My three favorites (Quick Ben, Kalam, Fiddler) all lived, but so did just about everyone else I cared about.

With how bleak parts of this series has been, I really expected a higher body count. I was pleasantly surprised.

Also, as soon as I saw the marines were almost dead, I was getting antsy about when QB and Kalam were going to show up and save them and was not disappointed.

So I think Tavore was a Talon. Wasn't throatslitter revealed as one a few books back and made mention that there was another among the bonehunters? I don't recall us ever finding them. Makes me think it was Tagore.

Also, I suppose I'm just dumb, but why did Cotillion have to kill the CG? Not that I mind, I still don't like him. Despite his talk of honoring the Malazans.


message 12: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
I'll post in the Epilogues once I get there. Still not done with this chapter yet.

We do already know that Throatslitter was a talon. I can't remember the reference to another in the Bonehunters but we know Baudin was Talon and he was taking orders from Tavore to be Felisin's bodyguard - and the Paran household was harbouring Talon as staff.


message 13: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Throatslitter definitely finds a sign among the Bonehunters in one of the previous books, but I forget the circumstances. I think it's right about the time we find out he's a Talon.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Killing the CG is what sent him back to the Jade Strangers. I imagine he had to kill him to get him out of the universe. The question, for me, is how he or Shadowthrone knew that that would be the result?


message 15: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Ah see, I thought the Jade Strangers simply left because he died. As per usual Erikson, he didn't really elaborate too much on the whole thing.


message 16: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Rob wrote: "Ah see, I thought the Jade Strangers simply left because he died. As per usual Erikson, he didn't really elaborate too much on the whole thing. "

At the moment of death there's a spurt of green from the ground to the sky - so I take that to be the CG's departure.
Also Cotillion's comment to Shadowthrone

A voice spoke beside Cotillion. ‘Well done.’
The patron god of assassins looked down at the knives still in his hands. ‘I don’t like failure. Never did, Shadowthrone.’


In other words this was an assassination where the target escapes.


message 17: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
I'm not going to give a blow by blow of the battles and I'm all over the place at the moment so I'll just blurt out what I have while it's fresh in my mind and then maybe go back later to pull out whatever else I thought was of note -

The end here makes it clear that the Otataral dragon as a means to negate the CGs chains was part of the plan all along - or at least from when, or near when, Heboric got his two hands. So for all Errastas' thinking he was the mastermind behind the Otataral dragon's release he was actually being played.

So the barrow where the Bridgeburners are defending is the anvil - and the Otataral dragon is the hammer (drawn by the Otataral sword)to break the Crippled God's Chains.

Drek surrounds the barrow to provide a measure of protection for the defenders from the conflagration of dragons and the Otataral dragon - It's only a temporary protection because until the OD is chained down Drek is still dying from being in proximity to the OD.

Also re Drek - we learn that Drek was actually travelling with the Snake, the Snake being a representation of Drek.

Heboric light hands - who is underwater is visited by Mael and K'rul and the CG - Heboric has one Otataral hand which he uses to draw and lock down the OD - and he has one green hand full of jade worshipers which he uses as a conduit to send the CG back to his worshipers - And there was no way we could have worked that out when we were trying to figure out the hands when we were reading Deadhouse Gates - but it goes to show how far back Erikson had been setting it up.

Anyway, when the Otataral dragon is chained, Tiam is in the process of appearing - the chaining aborts the manifestation and the result is dragons dying or scattering.


And it was cool that Toc gets accepted as a Bridgeburner and gets to live...or die happily ever after.

Tavore and Paran finally reunite. We see Tavore is still tormented by having killed Felisin - sure she didn't know she killed her as Shaik, but she still holds herself responsible.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Also loved the bit about Fiddler and his crew threatening to cut Korlat apart if she put Whiskeyjack's stone on the Gesler and Stormy's barrow. At this point, it's pretty clear that Whiskeyjack (whose name has morphed back from Iskar Jarak for some reason) is a god, so I think its cool that he would cease to exist if Korlat gave up her connection to him through a symbolic stone.

As for Tavore and Felisin, it looks like her guilt and grief are so strong that she probably wouldn't blame herself any more, even if she did know that she was the one who actually delivered the blow.

Finally, the book opens with the seige at Pale, and it closes with Fiddler playing for Whiskeyjack and company. I thought that was really fitting. First in, last out.


message 19: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
I don't have the book in front of me, but I wrote what she said wrong in my first post, She says "I am the daughter of an Emperor" NOT Empire. If I remember rightly.

The Talon were there to protect people like Tavore.

The last time we read this, we argued this point to death and even ended up asking SE what he actually meant. Typically we didn't get a straight answer. I'll find his response and post.


message 20: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (last edited Apr 30, 2014 04:32PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lee wrote: "I don't have the book in front of me, but I wrote what she said wrong in my first post, She says "I am the daughter of an Emperor" NOT Empire. If I remember rightly.

The Talon were there to protec..."



The Talon were trained as children, like the Claw - and they were loyal to the Emperor in the same way the Claw were loyal to the Empress - ie both were loyal to the individual, not the idea of Empire.

So "child of the Emperor" is an apt way of describing that relationship I think - especially when she uses the phrase as an explanation as to why she's wearing a talon - being a blood daughter of the Emperor wouldn't explain why you wore some affectation of your bodygauards. Plus Shadowthrone is Dal Honese while the Paran's are Untan - and I think if Erikson wanted Tavore to be blood related to the Emperor he would have slipped in some hint of Dal Honese into Tavore's description somewhere along the line. Otherwise I think it's too vague even for Erikson.
Hmmm...I can see why this was a hot topic Lee.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Furthermore, there was the overheard conversation in the Sergeant's meeting where Throatslitter said he was trying to figure out who the other talon in the camp was. That thread would close nicely with the revelation that Tavore is actually the talon they were looking for.

Tavore refers to children twice. Here, she says she was the child of an emperor, and I like David's take on that. When Stormy and Gesler pleaded with her to throw them a bone about motivation, she said that she first started on this course when the Paran's lost their eldest son. That also seemed a bit ambiguous, especially since Ganoes is alive and an ally.


message 22: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Duffy wrote: "Furthermore, there was the overheard conversation in the Sergeant's meeting where Throatslitter said he was trying to figure out who the other talon in the camp was. That thread would close nicely..."

This is the thing I've been referring to. Do you remember which book that was?


message 23: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (last edited Apr 30, 2014 06:19PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Ok - here's the explanation (referred to last thread) given for why Fener's death was "bigger" than some we have seen

‘When that god manifests, Fiddler, it will be upon a battlefield – thousands of souls will feed its shaping. We are speaking of a god of war – when it comes, it could well fill half the sky.’

So from this we can also conclude that some of the events of Ch 24 are overlapping chronologically with the previous chapter because at this stage Fener hasn't manifested yet.

We also learn that the sword that Shadowthrone gave to Silchas is infused with the souls of the three dragons that were chained in Shadow.

Silchas Ruin stood, both hands now on the sword, as the ethereal chains snapped taut, scissoring wildly above him like the strands of a wind-whipped thread.
Eloth. Ampelas. Kalse.


So the deal they cut with Cotillion (last book?) was that they would be released provided they ran interference on behalf of the Otataral dragon. I'm assuming that their chains would break by virtue of being in proximity to the OD. Same goes for Curdle and Telorast I think who join with them and Silchas and Tulas.
So forget all my previous musings over Silchas' motivations. It is clear now that the purpose was to slow down the attack on the OD long enough for it to reach the Crippled god.

I also like how Crone and all the crows provide the blood for the Crippled god's body

‘Beloved children! Listen to your mother! Hear her words – the words of Crone! We took inside us his flesh! All that we could find! We kept it alive on the blood of sorcery! All for this moment! Rejoice, my sweet children, for the Fallen God is reborn!’

Remembering that Crone and her cronies came from the maggots that feasted on the rotting pieces of the Crippled god when he fell.

We also get direct more confirmation that Shadowthrone is the architect of the CG's release

‘When he came to me – your emperor – when he offered me a way out … I was mistrustful. And yet … and yet, what do I see now? Here, standing before me? A Malazan.’

I'm also inferring from this that this happened before Kellanved's ascendancy - perhaps while he and Dancer were exploring the Azath network.

I think it was also fitting that it is K'rul along with Mael who are sending the CG off at the end - seeing that it was K'rul who chained the CG in the first instance. As Shadowthrone says later on..

‘Don’t be an idiot. I just appreciate … symmetry.’


message 24: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
and I think if Erikson wanted Tavore to be blood related to the Emperor he would have slipped in some hint of Dal Honese into Tavore's description somewhere along the line

I don't think SE ever wanted us to think that she was the get of the Emperor, just that she and her family were children of the Emperor. If you think about it, there was a few of them that were all the same, all those heroes who drowned etc

I'll be back with that SE answer


message 25: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
In our last groups discussion we asked SE directly about the Tavore Talon issue. Here is what he said:

Regarding Tavore, oh how I wince with what I am about to say: it is up to the reader to decide, because everything is down to a character's own sense of him or herself, whether that sense is legitimized externally or not, and really, which of the two is more important? Tavore sees herself as a Talon: whether she was 'officially' one or not is not really important. So, the reader can decide whether she was a true Talon or not, and the text offers both options, but I wonder, which of the two is the more poignant? I have my own answer to that, but it may not be the same as anyone else's.


message 26: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Thanks Lee for SE's non answer :)


message 27: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
how can you expect a real answer from him? *sighs*


Linette | 152 comments That is so SE, I like it :)


Sumant This chapter was really action packed, but how can the dragon's souls be trapped in the hust sword ? when they managed to manifest physically.

Also a bit disappointed that we do not get into the head of tavore till the end too.


message 30: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Sumant wrote: "This chapter was really action packed, but how can the dragon's souls be trapped in the hust sword ? "

I believe drawing the sword from it's scabbard allows them to veer. Sheathing the sword sends them back - or maybe the presence of so many other dragons allows them to veer temporarily?


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Suppose she's not Talon. Then where did she get the insignia from. Does holding herself out falsely to others strike you as being in character. If it's false, but she truly believes it, has anyone earlier thought of her as being either delusional or crazy.

On a slightly different subject. Lee, did Erikson ever give an answer that could not be found in one of the texts?


message 32: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Duffy wrote: "Suppose she's not Talon. Then where did she get the insignia from."

One possible interpretation is maybe she received that during the time House Paran was harbouring Talon. Perhaps they made her an honorary member or perhaps she just identifies with them or their loyalty to the emperor strongly


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments I don't buy it. Tavore appreciates the meaning of these sorts of symbols. Just think of the Bonehunters.


message 34: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
SE didn't really answer all the "what happened to" questions. I guess that might be because they are going to be in other books, like what ever happened to Felesin 2 in here hedonistic den of vice?

He talked more about how the story was born from gaming and how he and ICE used the characters in their stories, neither had ownership, so could both use them, as they do. There was nothing character wise and the last set of questions, where we asked more on individuals never got answered.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments That's about what I expected. Archeologists don't get to ask God or anyone else to explain the data they find. So why should readers.

Also, I've long believed that a writer is in no better position to interpret his own work than anyone else, and often does it even worse. If he didn't put it in the book, then his opinion is really no better than anyone else's. Here, that position gets slightly complicated by the pre-existence of a shared gaming world.


message 36: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Here, that position gets slightly complicated by the pre-existence of a shared gaming world.

and the fact that there are two authors with a story to tell. If you have read the ICE books you can see he tells it in a similar, but still slightly different way.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Yes, the shared world means that there are certain elements on which the two must agree. But I would assume that the largest portion of those elements come from the gaming environment.

Then there is the question of maintaining consistency between the books (or having good reasons for inconsistency).

Several years ago I read quite a few of the Dragonlance books. The various authors covered basically every second of Raistlin's life. Then, Weis and Hickman decided to write a different middle period for him, and it caused quite a fuss, because many people think they had basically betrayed the project, which was also ironic because the project was largely theirs to begin with.

I haven't read any ICE books yet, and I'm taking at least a two book break from Malazan. Then I might go on to him, or find the more obscure Erikson.


message 38: by Lori (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lori Duffy, now you can read Forge of Darkness, the first of a trilogy about the Split of the Andii, and the Elders are also in it, especially Draconus.

As for this whole talon business, isn't Tavore too young, hadn't Surly's claw already been formed. I took it to mean she always belonged to the Emporer more than Laseen. But Inow remembering what was said about another Talon, hmmm. I thought that referred to Kalam but he was never in the camps. So I don't know and I'm ok with that.

I loved how she and Ganoes were together. Her biggest hurt was the loss of Felisin.

Shadowthrone is one sneaky dude, set this whole thing up. And now we know why TCG softened from our original bastard, because ST had started telling him what was planned

The only false note the first t time for me was the return of Hetan, but now I see she was a gift from Toc to Tool.


Cameron | 24 comments Erikson and Esslemont both claim they don't compare notes too often and rarely ask for each others permission to follow a certain storyline. It seems like they only warn each other if they kill off a major character or some other major event.

I've read an ICE interview where he claims that he enjoys writing the books to surprise SE. Pretty crazy.

Duffy - I would hit Forge of Darkness and then head to the Esslemont books. The back story you get from FoD sheds so much light on the main series. Nothing against ICE books, they are just not quite on par with the others. For me they aren't as well written, but are much more straightforward if that is your thing. ICEs books do reveal many of the side stories that seem left out of the main series as well.


message 40: by Lori (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lori Yeah I can't waste my reading time with ICE, don't like his lack of differentiated characters, he lacks the depth and majesty of SE and and I also kept losing my focus. So I only partially read his first 2. I don't think he's really much of a writer, altho I consider him the other half in the creation if the world.


message 41: by Lori (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lori I saw another crazy Christian zealot story today and thought of Erikson and how we completely distort the gods. Like Ghandi said, I like your Jesus, I don't like your Christianity. The US is nuts. Of course this is true of all religions,


Cameron | 24 comments Totally understand Lori. I think with ICE the gratification is all in finishing some of the threads that were happening off page in Erikson's books.

The writing isn't great, Kruppe (one of my favorites) was completely and irrevocably ruined, and the mystery and intrigue were sometimes missing.

But, at the end of the day... I would still read an average book in the Malazan world just to tie up the loose ends and enjoy my time in the world they both created.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Forge of Darkness, maybe Baudelain and Korbal Broach stories. I will get to ICE at some point and decide for myself. There's no necessary connection between being creative and being a good writer, so I find it totally believable that he isn't as good as Erikson, but is a full partner in the creation of the world.

But again, I like to keep an open mind on these things. It's possible he's good on his own, but people look down on him because they love the Erikson books so much. I guess I will see when the time comes (and report back in this group).


Johny (drbo) | 184 comments Duffy wrote: "Also loved the bit about Fiddler and his crew threatening to cut Korlat apart if she put Whiskeyjack's stone on the Gesler and Stormy's barrow. At this point, it's pretty clear that Whiskeyjack (whose name has morphed back from Iskar Jarak for some reason) is a god, so I think its cool that he would cease to exist if Korlat gave up her connection to him through a symbolic stone."

This doesn't belong to this thread, it's from Epilogue.

And why do you think Whiskeyjack is a god?


David Sven wrote: "Drek surrounds the barrow to provide a measure of protection for the defenders from the conflagration of dragons and the Otataral dragon - It's only a temporary protection because until the OD is chained down Drek is still dying from being in proximity to the OD."

And from FA magic too.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Bridge burners ascended because of the spirit walkers song. They took Hoods place in the House of Death. Whiskey jack is their leader. A group of mortals, from I forget which book, worships him as Iskat Jarak. I think this is enough to make him a god, more than enough.


Johny (drbo) | 184 comments Duffy wrote: "Bridge burners ascended because of the spirit walkers song. They took Hoods place in the House of Death. Whiskey jack is their leader. A group of mortals, from I forget which book, worships him as..."

Well, maybe. I remember someone, maybe Cotillion, saying something like: "Every god is an ascendant, but not every ascendand is a god."


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments True, but an ascendent, who is the leader of a house in the deck, and has a group of worshippers?


message 48: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 4 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
The other thing I like is we finally get a look at the infamous Nefarious Bredd. And his physical appearance doesn't quite live up to legend

And then a Malazan slammed down beside them in a clatter of armour – a man if anything shorter than Reliko, yet pale and thin, his ears protruding from the sides of his narrow head. He faced them and offered up a yellow, snaggle-toothed smile. ‘Got your backs, sirs. Get on wi’yee now!’
Fiddler stared at the man. ‘Who in Hood’s name are you?’
The soldier gave him a hurt look. ‘I’m Nefarias Bredd, sir! Who else would I be? Now, get back up there – I’ll cover yee, aye?’


Except Nefarious Bredd is an invention

‘There is no Nefarias Bredd, sir. We made him up – on the march to Y’Ghatan. Got us a bad loaf of bread. Someone called it nefarious. We thought it was funny – like something Braven Tooth would’ve made up.’ He shrugged.


This is similar to the idea that Grub was created by the Bonehunters(?) from their collective consciousness.


message 49: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
I forgot to mention Bredd. Confusing, but amusing.


message 50: by Johny (last edited May 03, 2014 03:34AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Johny (drbo) | 184 comments Duffy wrote: "True, but an ascendent, who is the leader of a house in the deck, and has a group of worshippers?"

Rake had worshippers too and wasn't a god, if I recall right.

Whiskeyjack is leader of what house? I missed that completely in the books.
And WJ with Bridgeburners are guardians of death's realm, right?


David Sven wrote: "This is similar to the idea that Grub was created by the Bonehunters(?) from their collective consciousness. "

Actually he was created from Chain of Dogs I think.


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