Solaris by Stanislaw Lem (January 2016 Group Fiction Read)

[Greg]

Tweedledum wrote: "How does mind, consciousness emerge? Is I think a question at the back of everything...."

Tweedledum, I completely agree with this in particular and in fact practically all that you say!

Tweedledum wrote: "I am strongly reminded of CS Lewis' space trilogy especially the first Out of the Silent Planet and second- Voyage to Venus: both published long before "

Interesting Tweedledum! I read that so long ago - I was practically a kid when I read it ... I remember the trilogy being fascinating but not many details. One day I should re-read them.

[Tweedledum]

I finished Solaris earlier today. So much I had forgotten.

Rheya's self sacrifice is interesting. It leaves Kelvin bereft for the second time but who is he mourning? Why does Rheya pursue this route? Her choice seems to be motivated by a desire to set Kelvin free because she loves him. How does she come to such depth of understanding? Is that something unconsciously intuited from Solaris herself? This Rheya lives only for Kelvin ....Whereas the real Rheya's life and death lies shrouded in mystery. The only thing we know for sure is that Kelvin carries guilt about it. He fears the chimera Rheya yet gradually he comes to pity and love her then love turns to respect and admiration. Whoever or whatever this Rheya is her feelings are shockingly tangible. They cannot be ignored.
The hidden chimeras visiting Kelvin's colleagues are also primarily emotional beings. Ones whose emotions constantly threaten and challenge. Snow and Sartorius seemingly have to spend their days fighting their chimeras. Defending themselves.

Thus all of Solaris' children are destroyed or choose to be destroyed. But having found a new way of becoming, Solaris surely will continue to experiment with giving birth....

The final moments in the story where Kelvin stands on the shore contemplating the sublimation of the self into an unknown consciousness but knowing that instead he will live out a life of waiting in hope of a second resurrection are very poignant. In Rheya he had a glimpse it seems of a true soulmate. Someone who though utterly alien could read him better than any fellow human.

[Greg]

Tweedledum wrote: "I finished Solaris earlier today. So much I had forgotten. .."

Your comments are all very perceptive Tweedledum!

I found the final moments remarkably poignant as well. And I like too your question about Rheya's "depth of understanding." I hadn't thought about it, but the understanding she attains is quite remarkable (both of him and especially of herself). I think that's why by the end I found Rheya's doppelganger so compelling and almost magnetic a character.

We're near the end of the read period, but if you can, maybe throw in some spoiler tags though (around (view spoiler)[self sacrifice (hide spoiler)] anyway), just in case anyone is finishing late. Thanks! :) And once again, fantastic comments!!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Tweedledum wrote: "I finished Solaris earlier today. So much I had forgotten.

Rheya's self sacrifice is interesting. It leaves Kelvin bereft for the second time but who is he mourning? Why does Rheya pursue this ro..."

I love your comments! However, it struck me immediately that whether it was Rheya/Harey of earth or the chimera on Solaris, Kelvin ultimately was in the dark about who she was, despite his being drawn to the delusions of a soulmate.

Sublimation of self equals destruction of self, in my opinion. I think this fantasy of a blissful sublimination and a release from personality, an illusion which takes many forms in the human consciousness such as in many religions, a sublimination which is sometimes also a reason people take drugs, is similar to the mysterious pull which afflicts many people standing on the edge of a precipice. It results in death, not ascendence to a higher plane.

IMHO.

So, Harey (view spoiler)[dies, (hide spoiler)]symbolic of many dimensions of sublimination. Women make this mistake all of the time.

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Tweedledum wrote: "I finished Solaris earlier today. So much I had forgotten.

Rheya's self sacrifice is interesting. It leaves Kelvin bereft for the second time but who is he mourning? Why does R..."

I'm not sure April, but I do think you're right that she seems to understand him better than he understands her. And he does seem somewhat in the dark both now and in his past as you say. That's part of the poignancy I think.

It's true that there can be a fine line in relationships between deep empathy/connection (which is very healthy) and losing oneself altogether (which is of course very unhealthy) .. but I wonder if the issue with Rheya/Harey (view spoiler)[killing herself (hide spoiler)] is something much more complex?

She has a number of extra things to struggle with, for instance, (view spoiler)[the question of whether she's a "real" person? When she becomes self aware, she knows she's not really Rheya/Harey, and she has the extra burden of having listened to the deceased doctor's tapes about the 'visitors.' I think if I discovered I was a copy of someone else popped out by a quasi-living ocean, I'd have some fearful identity issues too! Heavy stuff. And then also to be instinctually tied to Kelvin, to be in physical hardship when he isn't there (despite their painful history) .. she's got to feel like a terrible burden as well, no matter what Kelvin says. Her position is very poignant. I really feel for her. (hide spoiler)]

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Maybe Harey was commanded by the Entity to do what she did, as an experiment to see what Kelvin would feel.

[Tweedledum]

Re spoiler alerts showing my ignorance here but how do I do that on an iPad? There doesn't seem to be an option on the page.

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Maybe Harey was commanded by the Entity to do what she did, as an experiment to see what Kelvin would feel."

Possibly April.

I had the feeling that the Ocean was almost a baby in understanding, acting without knowing exactly what it was doing, but who knows? The motives of the Ocean weren't altogether clarified or known; so almost anything could be possible.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Tweedledum wrote: "Re spoiler alerts showing my ignorance here but how do I do that on an iPad? There doesn't seem to be an option on the page."

I have an Ipad. When you touch the 'comment' box, at the top of the rectangle you can touch (some html is ok), which has as an instruction about half way down how to do a spoiler comment.

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Tweedledum wrote: "Re spoiler alerts showing my ignorance here but how do I do that on an iPad? There doesn't seem to be an option on the page."

I have an Ipad. When you touch the 'comment' box, a..."

Thanks for the tip April!!

[Phil]

Greg wrote: "I feel like there was some part of him (though perhaps a smaller part) that genuinely cared for Harey's doppelganger, that loved her separately for herself, "

In the last parts of the book, Kelvin expresses pretty clearly that he loves the simulacrum for itself and not just because it looks like Harey. Is he deluding himself? Possibly. But it was clear to me that he at least wanted to believe he loved her.

[Phil]

Giorgia wrote: "**SPOILER** 1- Why had all the robots been locked away in "the basement" of the station?
2- What about Snaut's and Sartorious's visitors? Did they get rid of them with the annihilator as well? Why was Snaut's visitor capable of staying away from him longer than Harey could? Was it because the real Harey had killed herself when she had thought Kelvin was leaving her, resulting in Kelvin's guilt about leaving her alone again (which transfered to the visitor, being it a materialization of the person's subconscious)?
3- What happened to Gilbarian's recording?"

*spoilers
1. I figure they locked away the androids because they were paranoid about anything humanoid roaming the ship. I'd feel the same way.
2. I assumed that Snaut's visitors were always either just around the corner or recently murdered. I had the impression that Snaut was in the habit of murdering his visitors as soon as they appeared.
3. Harey hid it.

[Phil]

Greg wrote: "I'm also very curious about the [fertility goddess / woman that he keeps seeing. Why this in his visions?"

*spoilers

I had the Johnston translation, which does not refer to a fertility goddess. There is a "Negro" in a yellow skirt walking around, though. The theory that she is Gibarian's visitor is interesting. I assumed that she was a recycled visitor based on the brainwaves of a previous scientist (possibly Gibarian) that the ocean used as a rough draft until it captured Kelvin's dreams and knew what he really wanted to see.