Solaris by Stanislaw Lem (January 2016 Group Fiction Read)

[Marta]

Too bad you can't read it in Polish (the original) - it's astoundingly, beautifully written.

[Greg]

Marta wrote: "Too bad you can't read it in Polish (the original) - it's astoundingly, beautifully written."

I had a feeling Marta. The English translation is frequently quite beautiful on a sentence level, definitely well above the quality of a usual sci-fi translation. That usually doesn't happen unless the source material is beautiful as well, often even more so!

[Greg]

Giorgia wrote: "@Greg at #35
(view spoiler)..."

Ah Giorgia, that makes perfect sense! I think you're right! That must be why once (view spoiler)[he finds her lying on Gilbarian's body in the ice room (hide spoiler)]. Thanks so much!

[Marta]

Greg wrote: "Marta wrote: "Too bad you can't read it in Polish (the original) - it's astoundingly, beautifully written."

I had a feeling Marta. The English translation is frequently quite beautiful on a senten..."

That's true. All of Lem's books are extremely well written. I'm not sure, though, how many have been translated to English.

[Genia]

I read it in Russian and it was amazing. Of course it's still a Slavic translation, so....

[[deleted user]]

Greg wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "@Greg at #35
(view spoiler)..."

Ah Giorgia, that makes perfect sense! I think you're right! That must be why once [spoilers removed]. Thanks so much!"

(view spoiler)[ What you mention is one of the things that made me think it was his visitor. On the other hand, Harey panics when Kelvin is not near because she feels like she would disappear if he was not there (sorry, I can't find the passage in the book). How can the f creation walk around alone in the station while Gilbarian is dead? Shouldn't it have disappeared? Or is it like old mimoids that float like relics in the ocean, waiting to crumble? I think Lem purposefully left this ananswered, but it bothers me. (hide spoiler)]

As for the other visitors
(view spoiler)[ I think Sartorius's was some kind of child. Maybe a dead son of his? Maybe he regretted not having married and had children, so the Ocean projected a child? He is described as a scientist in the truest sense, I don't think it's too far fetched to think he might have devoted his life to science and sacrificed his personal life in the process.
After all they say the Ocean haunts the scientists with their most secret desires, it's not said that it brings back people from their past necessarily.
As for Snaut, I have no idea. (hide spoiler)]
What did you think?

[[deleted user]]

Marta wrote: "Greg wrote: "Marta wrote: "Too bad you can't read it in Polish (the original) - it's astoundingly, beautifully written."

I had a feeling Marta. The English translation is frequently quite beautifu..."

What other books of his have you read? The Cyberiad was vehemently recommended to me.

[Greg]

Giorgia wrote: " What other books of his have you read? The Cyberiad was vehemently recommended to me. ..."

This is my first but probably not my last! :)

[Greg]

Giorgia wrote: "Greg wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "@Greg at #35
(view spoiler)..."

Ah Giorgia, that makes perfect sense!..."

Regarding the first spoiler, what you're probably thinking of (view spoiler)[is the incident where he locks the door on her, and she pulls hard enough to tear the door apart. When she bursts through, her features have melted into a completely alien form. At first, it was my assumption as well that without proximity, the visitors would devolve back into the raw material they came from.

But maybe not! After all, Hari is still screaming from within the rocket as she's flying up into space (in her first incarnation). So maybe the melting into alien form behind the door is more an expression of extreme stress. Maybe the visitors are irrisistably drawn to their "makers;" they're irrisistably drawn to them at the most basic level of their being even though being apart won't actually kill them.

Hari says that when the narrator isn't near her she feels a mixture of primal "fear" and "shame." Shane is an odd word for her to use. It's as though the visitors have encountered their creator god in the flesh and then are compelled to stay with that god. I suspect some kind of religious allegory going on (akin to Frankenstein), but I'm not really sure. (hide spoiler)]

I'm afraid to read the second spoiler because I'm not quite done. Only 3 chapters left! I'll open it when I finish. :)

[Greg]

Giorgia wrote: "As for the other visitors
(view spoiler)
What did you think? ..."

I had the same impession with Sartorious' visitor Giorgia. (view spoiler)[Definitely a child, whether one from his past or a secret desire I'm not sure. Either is certainly possible! (hide spoiler)]

As for Snaut's visitor, (view spoiler)[the book seemed to hint at some kind of secret perversion made flesh. I have no idea what though, I gather something terrible and almost unspeakable. (hide spoiler)]

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Starting it today.

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "Starting it today."

Great April! :)

[Shirley]

Greg wrote: "Shirley wrote: "I'm back on with reading this today, after a short break from it."

Great Shirley! How far along are you?"

Hi Greg, I'm 72% through the book now. Just been through a technical section but onto a more human part now, which is easier reading.

[Greg]

Shirley wrote: "
Hi Greg, I'm 72% through the book now. Just been through a technical section but onto a more human part now, which is easier reading.
..."

Like Erica said, it does almost seem like two separate pieces, the technical parts about the ocean and the parts about the human story. I'm finding the human story remarkably moving. For me, the technical parts are intriguing because the ocean is so unique (I've never encountered anything like it in any other reading) but not quite as fully gripping as the human story.

I'm into the final chapter now!

[LauraT]

Marta wrote: "Too bad you can't read it in Polish (the original) - it's astoundingly, beautifully written."

IT's always the same with books in translation. And doing this job - even if I don't translate literature! - I know well how much you loose changing the language. Still, it's impossible to know well all the language of literature. So I'm happy translations exhists: I couldn't live without Tolstoi, or Zola, or Marquez...

[Greg]

Just finished - what gorgeous writing in the final chapter! The translation was exquisite. I was completely captivated by it! And this is despite the fact that I disagree with some of the philosophy expressed.

In terms of the final theory of the ocean, what an interesting concept as well that the ocean is (view spoiler)[an enormous alien infant (hide spoiler)].

And I love also the distinction between all the theories of the ocean (even this final one) and the actual experience of the ocean, expressed in the following lovely passages:

(view spoiler)["... powerful, inexorable silence breathing evenly through its waves ..."

"... staring in wonderment ... and in the gathering intensity of engrossment, I was becoming one with this fluid, unseeing colossus ... as if ... without words, without a single thought, I was forgiving it for everything.

For all the narrator's talk of a "flawed god" and his semi-disdain for Solarists' almost religious focus on the dream of alien "Contact," the above quotes read practically like the words of a medieval mystic: the one-ness and the communion. Very curious. (hide spoiler)]

I also find the below expression of an absent watchmaker "God" exquisite:

"... to be a clock, on the other hand, measuring the passage of time, one that is smashed and rebuilt over and again, one in whose mechanism despair and love are set in motion by the watchmaker along with the first movement of the cogs ...."

And I love the final line:

(view spoiler)["... the time of cruel wonders was not yet over." (hide spoiler)]

Overall, I found the human parts of the story more captivating than the parts covering "Solaristic" theory, but I quite liked the book. I gave it 4 stars.

[Greg]

Terri wrote: "I've finished the book, and I ended up liking it more than I originally thought. [spoilers removed]"

I agree wholeheartedly with the point in your spoiler Terri!! Even though I disagreed with some of the philosophy he expressed, I loved that part too. I thought it was expressed beautifully and there was a true seeking in the words. It had plenty of heart in it!

[LauraT]

Greg wrote: "Terri wrote: "I've finished the book, and I ended up liking it more than I originally thought. [spoilers removed]"

I agree wholeheartedly with the point in your spoiler Terri!! Even though I disag..."

IN the end I have to agree; the ending was breath taking. I still have perplexities stated before, but on the whole I'm glad to have read it.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

It seemed to me I can develop a theory, a symbolic theory, from 'Solaris' in a form of a symbolic science fiction story of why a god appears to have disappeared after our 'creation' (I am an atheist, just saying).

What I mean is, if a god-like being, without understanding what the objects were, like picking up kelp at the beach and not knowing if it was alive, a plant or a creature, played with the object's material, mindlessly or maybe indifferently created a Hari/Eve from the mind of something else it didn't understand, say Kelvin/Adam, from particles like sand or dirt or atoms or neutrinos, which it can play with as easily as messing around with grains of sugar, idly rearranged them in a kind of order like Legos, and then watched it do stuff without meanings to itself because its being was completely different. It curiously observes this toy began to react and move, but the being having no means to judge what or why it moves, watches idly for awhile, like watching a dust mote in a sunray, then it drops the whole thing, moving on to more interesting stuff.

: )

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "It seemed to me I can develop a theory, a symbolic theory, from 'Solaris' in a form of a symbolic science fiction story of why a god appears to have disappeared after our 'creation' (I am an atheis..."

I agree April! I'm not an atheist myself, but I definitely think what you describe are some of the ideas Lem toys with, both in the lovely passage about the absent watchmaker and some of the long passages about the (view spoiler)["infant" (hide spoiler)] ocean.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I am really really really happy with this book. I saw both of the movies, and they did not get this book at all, IMHO.

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I am really really really happy with this book. I saw both of the movies, and they did not get this book at all, IMHO."

I'm extremely happy that I finally read the book too April! And I'm happy also that the book was much clearer than the movie I saw; the human story comes across much stronger in the book - very affecting. I can see why the book has the reputation it does.

I really liked the Tarkovsky movie also, but it was much more cryptic than the book and very different in what it was trying to do. Definitely not a close adaption, but a piece of art on its own I think. I can definitely see that the movie's bizarre crypticness would drive many people crazy though - it's a love it or hate it thing I suspect. :)

The American movie I never got around to seeing.

[Kristi]

Giorgia wrote: "I've started it and I'm really into the depiction of the planet.
The mystery/tension reminds me of Annihilation and The Three Body Problem"

I'm a little late to start this book, but I agree with you, Giorgia. The description of the planet is really interesting, which is about as far as I've gotten. I am definitely reminded of Annihilation. However, I didn't exactly like Annihilation enough to read the final book in the trilogy. I am also reminded a bit of The Swarm, which I read several years ago and didn't like at all. I always think I like science fiction, or that I should since I'm a chemist, but it's pretty hit or miss with me. That said, I'm looking forward to reading more of Solaris.

[[deleted user]]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "It seemed to me I can develop a theory, a symbolic theory, from 'Solaris' in a form of a symbolic science fiction story of why a god appears to have disappeared after our 'creation' (I am an atheis..."

Fascinating observation.

[[deleted user]]

Kristi wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "I've started it and I'm really into the depiction of the planet.
The mystery/tension reminds me of Annihilation and The Three Body Problem"

I'm a little late to start this book, b..."

@Kristi, I didn't particularly care for Annihilation and I don't know why. Maybe it was the pace? On paper, it has every interesting element I'm looking for in a book, yet I wasn't even compelled to go on reading books 2 and 3 to find out more.

[Shirley]

I've finished this now, and have given it 3 stars. It would have been a strong 4 stars except that I felt there was just a bit too much on the technical, scientific side for my liking. I did really enjoy the human story though and thought that was a brilliant piece of science fiction writing. I've not seen either of the films.

[LauraT]

Shirley wrote: "I've finished this now, and have given it 3 stars. It would have been a strong 4 stars except that I felt there was just a bit too much on the technical, scientific side for my liking. I did really..."

Exactly my feeling and mark!

[Leslie]

Shirley wrote: "I've finished this now, and have given it 3 stars. It would have been a strong 4 stars except that I felt there was just a bit too much on the technical, scientific side for my liking. I did really..."

It is definitely a science-based sci fi! I am about halfway through now and should finish over the weekend (if not sooner).

I find it interesting that Lem wrote this in French when he is Polish. I don't know anything about him as a person - did he live in France?

[Greg]

Leslie wrote: "Shirley wrote: "I've finished this now, and have given it 3 stars. It would have been a strong 4 stars except that I felt there was just a bit too much on the technical, scientific side for my liki..."

Oh I had no idea about that Leslie! I'd just assumed he'd written it in Polish. How interesting! Now I'm curious too

Thankfully the human parts of the story get more prevalent as the story progresses! At first the science definitely has the upper hand.

[Leslie]

Just had a thought about a passage early in the book:

"During the following ten years, Solaris became the center of attention for all observatories concerned with the study of this region of space, for the planet had in the meantime shown the astonishing faculty of maintaining an orbit which ought, without any shadow of doubt, to have been unstable. The problem almost developed into a scandal: since the results of the observations could only be inaccurate, attempts were made (in the interests of science) to denounce and discredit various scientists or else the computers they used."

I realized that while I thought of it as one of the more amusing insights into the way scientists work, Lem was writing behind the Iron Curtain in the late 1950s (the book was first published in 1961) so it could also be read as a critique of the USSR's management style!! I will have to think more about this aspect of the book.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

The 'love story' was actually based on a (view spoiler)[faked, induced emotion based on a relationship between a simulacrum grown by an alien and a real human, similar to loving a photograph of a person taken at a point in time which may no longer be true in the present, similar to adoring a photo of a loved one from 30 years ago, at a vacation spot which today is now a factory, and the person themselves became old and changed, who you divorced because of losing your love for them from the changes. Yet despite the fact 'Harey' is a hologram, most readers respond to these sections as if she exists as the complete real 3D individual, instead of the fake 2D person she 'is'. The scientific academic research papers by all of those educated men also ultimately show how little all of that learning, educated guesses, and created fields of study and new words actually reveal or teach or push forward science. Most of all, these, on-the-surface anyway, cold, prideful educated men are reduced to primitive caveman instincts, to fear, sex and survival strategies, despite their supposedly higher-level intellectualism.

Communism in action was very inferior to the intellectual philosophy, as is science and love, for that matter. I think Lem was a bitter bitter man. His book plays with people's surface faith, while at the same time he is subversively saying something else. (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Leslie wrote: "Just had a thought about a passage early in the book:

"During the following ten years, Solaris became the center of attention for all observatories concerned with the study of this region of space..."

I hadn't thought of that Leslie, but I can see what you mean. It's natural of course that when scientific results turn up that seem to contradict known theories, other scientists disbelieve and contradict them. But to "denounce and discredit" scientists that oppose the 'correct' theory seems to go a bit further; perhaps Lem's experience of undemocratic systems plays into the way he sees this? Or perhaps it is a veiled criticism? I'm not sure. It certainly could be.

[Leslie]

Greg wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Just had a thought about a passage early in the book:

"During the following ten years, Solaris became the center of attention for all observatories concerned with the study of this ..."

Historically speaking, scientists whose observations go against conventional wisdom/understanding have been denounced -- think about Galileo! And Max Planck too was denounced at first when his theory on black-body radiation was published.

But I do think that Lem's experience with the way the Communist government managed things influenced the way he sees this. Things like Stalin's purges (which were of course earlier) -
"In the 1920s and 1930s, 2,000 writers, intellectuals, and artists were imprisoned and 1,500 died in prisons and concentration camps. After sunspot development research was judged un-Marxist, twenty-seven astronomers disappeared between 1936 and 1938. The Meteorological Office was violently purged as early as 1933 for failing to predict weather harmful to the crops. But the toll was especially high among writers. " (from Wikipedia)

The idea that research into sunspot development was "un-Marxist" or that meteorologists should be punished for not being able to correctly predict the weather seems to me to typify the sort of attitude Lem might be criticizing, using this sci fi story to say the kind of thing that he couldn't say otherwise. Similar to Arthur Miller using the Salem Witch Trials to comment on McCarthyism in The Crucible.

[Greg]

Leslie wrote: "The idea that research into sunspot development was "un-Marxist" or that meteorologists should be punished for not being able to correctly predict the weather seems to me to typify the sort of attitude Lem might be criticizing, using this sci fi story to say the kind of thing that he couldn't say otherwise. ..."

I can definitely see that Leslie - you could very well be right! I don't think I would've picked up on it if you hadn't mentioned it, but it does seem highly probable. Thanks!

Did you ever find out why he wrote it in French Leslie? I wonder if there was a political reason behind that too?

[Greg]

Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I think you read (Solaris) translated in 1970 by Joanna Kilmartin and Steve Cox from the 1964 French translation by Jean-Michel Jasiensko: "One note readers should know beforehand is that the version of Solaris available in English is a translation from Polish to French and then translated from the French into English. For some irresponsible and bizarre reason, publishing house Faber and Faber who own the license have not authorized a direct from Polish translation of Solaris."

But wait .. that has now changed! I read a different version (Solaris), the newer 2014 direct translation by Bill Johnston directly from Polish into English which has the note: "This is the first English translation directly from the original."

I owe many thanks to my friend Bryn in another group that pointed this out to me! I hadn't even realized until she asked me which translation I read.

[Leslie]

Greg wrote: "Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I think you read (Solaris) translated in 1970 by..."

Thanks for finding out about this Greg -- I did wonder if it might have been Polish -> French -> English...

I thought that I had replied to you earlier but I guess I must have hit cancel instead of post :(

I didn't even think about which translation - just took what was available at a nearby library. But I have noticed looking back at the earlier comments that my edition appeared to have different names for some of the characters! For example, Rheya instead of Harey and Snow instead of Snaut.

[[deleted user]]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "The 'love story' was actually based on a faked, induced emotion based on a relationship between a simulacrum grown by an alien and a real human, similar to loving a photograph of a person taken at ..."

I didn't read it as a love story, but as a story about regret and obsession. I also found fascinating Harey's struggle, her attempts at understanding what she was, what dictated her actions and (view spoiler)[ultimately her desire to disappear. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I think you read (Solaris) translat..."

I read the book in Italian but there was a note by the translator explaining the story behind the translation. Apparently the Kilmartin-Cox translation did not just change names, but also cut parts of the book. I am afraid that you had that one Leslie.
There used to be an Italian edition translated from the French too, but now they've rectified it by translating from the original Polish.

[Leslie]

Giorgia wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I think you read ..."

Yes, that is the one I had. Unfortunately, I didn't love the book enough to want to reread it right away even if I could find the newer better translation. Ah well.

By the way, I agree that I didn't view this as a love story. I never felt that Kelvin (view spoiler)[truly cared for the simulated Rheya/Harey despite his declaration to that effect. It was more like he was working through his guilt and regret through her; that by behaving kindly and lovingly to the simulated Rheya he would expiate to some extent his lack of those qualities with his real wife which contributed to her suicide. (hide spoiler)]

[Marta]

Leslie wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I think you read ..."

I also don't think it was a love story - it would have been very un-Lem like anyway. Making it just a love story was a huge simplification of the book done by the director of the movie.

[Greg]

Leslie wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I think you read ..."

I agree Leslie, Giorgia, and Marta, I feel it's not primarily a story about love. I'm not sure I'd go so far though as to say he didn't feel anything for Harey at all. I think love is more complicated than what is usually thought of as love; there so much else that gets wrapped up with it, even in healthy relationships.

Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but I feel like there was some part of him (though perhaps a smaller part) that genuinely cared for Harey's doppelganger, that loved her separately for herself, but it was completely impossible for him to separate those weaker impulses from the much stronger impulses Leslie describes, his desperate need to (view spoiler)["expiate to some extent his lack of those qualities with his real wife which contributed to her suicide." It's this mix of emotions that's so fascinating. I'm not sure the narrator could understand himself what he was feeling (hide spoiler)].

[Greg]

Giorgia wrote: "I also found fascinating Harey's struggle, her attempts at understanding what she was, what dictated her actions..."

I couldn't agree more! That part was utterly fascinating, almost like some of the best sci-fi books about artificial intelligence - it gets to the core of what makes us human.

It was the dawning of Harey's self consciousness that changed the book from intriguing to utterly fascinating!

[Leslie]

Yes Greg (re: your last paragraph in post 91) - that mix of emotions was so well described. And I think that you are right that he did have some connection with the (view spoiler)[ simulated being, especially once he realized that she didn't have any conscious idea of what she was (hide spoiler)].

It was rather ironic that in the end (view spoiler)[simulated Rheya/Harey essentially chose suicide so that she & Kelvin didn't have to deal with the reality of her being 'fake' when the real Rheya/Harey also died by suicide. I thought that it was the horror of losing her in that particular manner which led to Kelvin's reacting as he did (rather than grief). (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Leslie wrote: "Yes Greg (re: your last paragraph in post 91) - that mix of emotions was so well described. And I think that you are right that he did have some connection with the [spoilers removed].

It was rath..."

It is ironic Leslie, and I hadn't thought of it, but I'm sure that similarity does play into his reactions. How could it not!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I wonder what the Ocean understood about Harey's act. That it must be safe from human attack since humans were so emotional and easy to manipulate emotionally, I am remembering Ray Bradbury's famous Martian story too, despite facts and actual reality? This is a serious Achilles' heel of humanity (Trump's popularity is kind of a proof of concept - I apologise in advance for this sideways comment, but I am emotionally unfit right now).

; P

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I wonder what the Ocean understood about Harey's act. That it must be safe from human attack since humans were so emotional and easy to manipulate emotionally, I am remembering Ray Bradbury's famou..."

The Ocean's experience was so alien; I wonder if even at the end it "understood" anything in a human sense. Who knows though? Nothing was altogether certain.

But unfortunately humans can be easy to manipulate. That's certainly true, and the scientists were manipulated, whether the Ocean did it consciously or not.

I apologise in advance for this sideways comment, but I am emotionally unfit right now).

Hope you feel better April! It's great to have you participating in the group read!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I am. I was exaggerating you know. Irony is hard to pick up sometimes. The club can relax on my account because I am more ironic than crazy. Usually. Sorry if anyone got my comment as one expressive as a scream instead of a sly grin.

*grin*.

[Greg]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I am. I was exaggerating you know. Irony is hard to pick up sometimes. The club can relax on my account because I am more ironic than crazy. Usually. Sorry if anyone got my comment as one expressiv..."

lol April, good to hear; sly grin received :)

[LauraT]

Greg wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Giorgia wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Greg wrote: "Ah, mystery solved Leslie! Lem didn't write it in French; the reality is more complicated:

A note I found online about the translation I ..."

Absolutely in agreement

[Tweedledum]

Love all your comments. I first read Solaris back in 2010 and then watched the Russian film version, Tarkovsky's rather than the one with George Clooney in , which was very faithful to the atmosphere of the book.
Re-reading it I find I am paying much more attention to detail and the duality of the central character. He is trying so hard to think wth his rational mind... His scientific head while his emotions are in turmoil.
Like others I think the descriptive passages about Solaris quite brilliant and wish I could read it in the original language. I think Lem has immersed himself in the alien world he created and this makes his writing very compelling and believable. Others have mentioned Philip Dick as a strong influence but to me I am strongly reminded of CS Lewis' space trilogy especially the first Out of the Silent Planet and second- Voyage to Venus: both published long before space travel was even a twinkle in the American or Russian eye. Lewis has the immense ability to imagine truly alien worlds and immerse the reader in them.

Both the protagonist and Solaris herself are on journeys of discovery ..... How does mind, consciousness emerge? Is I think a question at the back of everything.