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Middlemarch
Old School Classics, Pre-1915
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Middlemarch: Spoiler Discussion Thread
Wow, Bat-Cat, you make such excellent points here. I've had that experience (also with War and Peace) of new comprehension of the meaning of life from a great novel like this. And your point that she covers the whole spectrum of humanity is very well said, and I think this might be why I've heard Middlemarch referred to as the best novel ever.I'm still quite a ways from finishing, but I would add that one way I think she accomplishes this is by maintaining a non-judgmental attitude toward the characters. That way we can see reflections of ourselves as you say in all of them, which is pretty cool when you think about it!
You inspire me and I'll be spending more time in Middlemarch this week ...
Bat-Cat, you've had an interesting and philosophical take on this book. Thanks for sharing.
Bat-Cat wrote: "I finished Middlemarch yesterday and, after having a little while to process it, have decided that I am a much better person for having read it. I guess that is what they say about all great books...."Beautiful ... bat-cat
What a wonderful review of the story, thank you for sharing that.
Kathleen wrote: "Wow, Bat-Cat, you make such excellent points here. I've had that experience (also with War and Peace) of new comprehension of the meaning of life from a great novel like this. And your point that s..."Thank you Kathleen for your kind words but more importantly for your observation that the perspective of the narrator is non-judgmental as well. Because of this we are allowed to see these people in all their glory and with all their flaws - there are no cultural, moral biases and judgments injected by Eliot toward any of them. It is the reader who brings their own beliefs, biases and life experiences to the reading. In that pure state created by the total acceptance of all the characters by the narrator, the reader is able to see them self in these characters and thus potentially learn from them - whether it be Dorothea's benevolence or Bulstrode's greed or Rosamond's self-centeredness or even Casaubon's extreme selfishness. All situations in this book are potential life lessons for those who wish to and are able to look past their own judgments. What an amazing accomplishment - "which IS pretty cool when you think about it!"
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Bat-Cat, you've had an interesting and philosophical take on this book. Thanks for sharing."
You're welcome. Sometimes I get inspired and can't seem to hold it in. :)
Bat-Cat wrote: "I finished Middlemarch yesterday and, after having a little while to process it, have decided that I am a much better person for having read it. I guess that is what they say about all great books...."Great observations, Bat-Cat!
A great book like this lingers in the mind for some time after one's finished, and when I pondered the subtitle 'A Study of Provincial Life' my thoughts kept wandering in the direction of what is not in the novel.
When you look at the community Eliot is describing, the provincial elite, all the main characters, and many of the secondary characters, she introduces to us have some kind of drama attached to them. She left out folks who have their lives together. These are the people who quietly go about their lives, have happy, stable marriages, yet still have to deal with what life throws at them just the same - they just handle things differently. They interact and influence the people and community with their stability and constancy and act as a "counter pole," so to speak, to all the drama. Eliot does not venture into this aspect of life in small community.
One could speculate as to why that is, and I am sure we could come up with all sorts of reasons, not enough drama, etc., etc.
I am left with the lingering impression that Eliot only gave us a partial study.
siriusedward wrote: "Bat-Cat wrote: "I finished Middlemarch yesterday and, after having a little while to process it, have decided that I am a much better person for having read it. I guess that is what they say about ...":)
Powder River Rose wrote: "What a wonderful review of the story, thank you for sharing that."Thank you!
Kerstin wrote: "Bat-Cat wrote: "I finished Middlemarch yesterday and, after having a little while to process it, have decided that I am a much better person for having read it. I guess that is what they say about ..."Hi Kerstin, I would have to respectfully differ from your opinion that this is a "partial study" which doesn't include people "who quietly go about their lives, have happy, stable marriages, yet still have to deal with what life throws at them just the same". I feel that if I were to be able to look at every aspect of everyone's life (as we were able to in the novel - at least in this provincial community) that I would not find anyone whose life was altogether stable and constant. I think some people have things more together in certain areas than other people but, if I could really look behind the scenes of people's lives, I would find a certain amount of dysfunction with everyone. The idea of "Do we ever really know anyone?" comes to mind. I think that both the Brookes' and the Garth's had fairly stable marriages and family lives yet they had their fair share of drama too. Dorothea served for me as the balancing, "counter pole" for many of the characters and possibly for the entire community. I saw her as the saint-like figure. Of course, all situations are not represented in this book but I feel that Eliot has covered pretty close to all life experiences on all levels - physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. And that is a pretty massive undertaking in my book.
Kerstin wrote: "Bat-Cat wrote: "I finished Middlemarch yesterday and, after having a little while to process it, have decided that I am a much better person for having read it. I guess that is what they say about ..."HI Kerstin. I awoke this morning thinking about this novel (as I will most likely do for several more mornings to come) and your thoughts on it regarding Eliot only giving us a partial study. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement and somehow, in my myopia yesterday, I was not looking at it from the broader perspective. Your astute observations were the spark I needed to look further and ask more questions and I thank you for that. I see that when you look at the really big picture, life is too enormous to be contained in any size box. Eliot's book, as far reaching as it was, was limited by definition. How could all of life possibly be described in a book? Infinity contains everything, not the other way around. Wow, is there any end to how far one can delve into these great works of literature? I don't know but I am sure having fun finding out.
Thank you so much for your insights and for voicing them so eloquently. They greatly inspire me and I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on this book and, hopefully, on many others. :)
Skim my comments if you haven't read books 4 and 5 yet. I'm just giving the warning because most of this thread really hasn't divulged much and it could be easy to get comfortable in it as I've had to be careful of doing :)I'm just starting on book 6 but I had to say that when Casaubon dies, and Dorothea finds him, I really felt bad for them both, despite the fact he was a hard character to like. All the tension on both sides based on wrong presuppositions that now cannot be resolved. And then the drama it creates thereafter!
Then I really felt for Mr. Brooke as he was giving his speech and being mocked. Of course, you expect him to be appalled by it all but what does he do? He walks out almost indifferent to the whole thing. Talk about staying true to form. I wanted him to react more but then that wouldn't quite be him, would it?
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Bat-Cat wrote: "I see that when you look at the really big picture, life is too enormous to be contained in any size box. Eliot's book, as far reaching as it was, was limited by definition."Exactly! All works of literature, even those of the magnitude of Middlemarch, are necessarily only snap-shots of the human condition. Every story has parameters within which the plot takes place. Even when we explore a story from within its given scope, it never exists in a vacuum. There is the whole of human experience, and this is what we bring to it and compare it to.
…and thank you for the compliments :)
Benevolent Dorothea, as Bat-Cat said, really inspired me with this one:"But I have a belief of my own, and it comforts me." "What is that?" said Will, rather jealous of the belief. "That by desiring what is perfectly good, even when we don't quite know what it is and cannot do what we would, we are part of the divine power against evil--widening the skirts of light and making the struggle with darkness narrower."
I love this idea, and I'm sorry, but that last phrase is gorgeous!
Kathleen wrote: "Benevolent Dorothea, as Bat-Cat said, really inspired me with this one:"But I have a belief of my own, and it comforts me." "What is that?" said Will, rather jealous of the belief. "That by desir..."
Yes Kathleen, I loved that one as well. In fact, there were so many of Dorothea's quotes I highlighted, especially toward the end of the novel, that I felt like I was highlighting every page. ;) She was definitely progressing ever faster in the direction of the Light.
Kathy wrote: "Yes, Chris -- I agree with your thoughts on Dorothea & Casaubon. With a bit of honest communication between them, I think they would have been somewhat happier."Their inability to communicate snuffs out the spark that was there in the beginning. Both of them had realized that they had something in common, but I don't believe it was enough to sustain a marriage. Once married, they didn't know how to nurture and grow what they have in common because the genuine affection was missing. It doesn't even occur to Casaubon to make any personal adjustments, and Dorothea retreats too quickly into her shell. Only a love that desires the good of the other has the ability to mature and become greater than its parts. Without communication how do you know how the other is faring? When Casaubon dies the scene in the garden is quite touching. Dorothea is mourning a life that never was.
Kerstin wrote: "Bat-Cat wrote: "I see that when you look at the really big picture, life is too enormous to be contained in any size box. Eliot's book, as far reaching as it was, was limited by definition."Exact..."
Kerstin that was very beautifully said. Thank you!!!
Soon after finishing Eliot's classic (which I loved) I started reading My Life in Middlemarch by Rebecca Mead. Part memoir and part literary criticism, Mead's comments on the novel make me love it even more. I highly recommend both!
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I did not even realize that book existed. Looks interesting! Another one for my TBR list.
Me too--thanks for the recommendation, Joseph!
Joseph wrote: "Soon after finishing Eliot's classic (which I loved) I started reading My Life in Middlemarch by Rebecca Mead. Part memoir and part literary criticism, Mead's commen..."I have had this on my TBR list for awhile now - I even purchased it for my Kindle. :) I am happy to hear that you are liking it. After I finished Middlemarch and loved it so very much!!! I was sort of afraid that this book might detract from that. Your comments have inspired me to take another look and take the plunge. Thank you.
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Why or why not?
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Katy, Quarterly Long Reads
(last edited Feb 18, 2016 12:53PM)
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Here is an article by someone who agrees with Amis & Barnes
"A lot of serious people, among them A. S. Byatt, Martin Amis, Julian Barnes and lots of others, think Middlemarch the greatest single novel in the English language. Being professionally disagreeable, as it were, or at least something of a professional dissenter, I hate to find myself in agreement with a popular view, but I think they may be right."
Kathy wrote: "By George, Middlemarch is brilliantHere is an article by someone who agrees with Amis & Barnes
"A lot of serious people, among them A. S. Byatt, Martin Amis, Julian Barnes and lots of others, thi..."
Kathy, the link doesn't work (at least for me). It only lets subscribers read the article. I read this review, which was pretty good and comprehensive.
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/2015...
I find Middlemarch to be one of the finest crafted novels I've ever read. The way Eliot has control over the very intricate plot is downright astounding. She certainly created some very iconic characters. Is it the "greatest single novel"? I leave that for others to decide.
No question, Eliot is a very astute observer, but even someone of her caliber runs into walls. Some things in life need to be lived in order to write about them in a comprehensive fashion. I am referring specifically to marriage here. I am coming back to this subject again because her characters are not caricatures. She spends pages and pages introducing them to us and describing how the world looks like through their eyes then develops them further throughout the book.
Either you have the life experience of marriage or you don't. Either you look from the inside out or from the outside in. Throughout the the novel it was very plain to me that Eliot wrote from the perspective of "looking from the outside in." There is an "edginess" to her writing she just can't shake. This may be true for some marriages, but certainly not all. Eliot concentrated much on the disparities between the spouses: mismatches, disputes, stubbornness, submission, acquiescence, etc, etc. I don't recall her writing much on the unitive strength of marriage, where both spouses work towards a common goal and therefore make a bigger whole than each is on their own.
message 128:
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Katy, Quarterly Long Reads
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Your point (Eliot concentrated much on the disparities between the spouses: mismatches, disputes, stubbornness, submission, acquiescence, etc, etc. I don't recall her writing much on the unitive strength of marriage, where both spouses work towards a common goal and therefore make a bigger whole than each is on their own.) is well taken, Kirstin, but neither has anyone else.
Alex wrote: "Your point (Eliot concentrated much on the disparities between the spouses: mismatches, disputes, stubbornness, submission, acquiescence, etc, etc. I don't recall her writing much on the unitive st..."So true!
One aspect we haven't discussed much is the role of the clergy in Middlemarch. While reading the book I couldn't quite get a handle what Eliot was saying when describing the different clergymen. Was it just character differences or is she saying something deeper as to their take on faith/religion? How many Protestant confessions is she referring to or are we talking about different branches within Anglicanism? I googled a bit and found a very interesting analysis. Yep, I just didn't get it :) Turns out, she was talking about the latter.
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http://britlitwiki.wikispaces.com/Rel...
The link should open to the subtitle "Middlemarch:Religion"
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Thank you. That is some great information.
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Which characters seem most attentive (or most blind) to their own biases? How do their (mis)perceptions affect their actions?
Just finished and liked it for the most part. What's the deal with Italian with white mice?
Sylwia wrote: "Just finished and liked it for the most part. What's the deal with Italian with white mice?"I wondered about that too, Sylwia, and read online that there were stereotypes and distrust of performers and anyone who wasn't English at that time, and Will had a Polish relative, an artist father and a performer mother, which made him suspect. At the time apparently there were Italian organ grinders who carried with them through the streets in London not only trained monkeys but also trained mice to use in their street performances.
Kathy wrote: "So for those of you who have finished, do you agree with Martin Amis and Julian Barnes who described Middlemarch as the greatest novel in the English language?Why or why not?"
I am one who agrees that Middlemarch is the greatest novel in the English language, but then I prefer a character-driven novel as opposed to plot-driven, and Middlemarch is all about the characters. I don’t recall another novel that goes into as much depth with as many characters. We see their trajectory and growth over time, the way we usually do for one or maybe two main characters only.
George Eliot was really smart, well-read, and a gifted storyteller. The depth of analysis she offers through these character studies—about politics, about science, about society, about marriage and families, makes this a very special work.
Most importantly to me, she provides this analysis with compassion and a generosity toward every character, as if she brought them to life as a loving creator who accepted them, faults and all, teaching readers a little about compassion in the process.
Love your thoughts on this Kathleen and I tend to agree with much of what you said...it's all about the characters.She treated so many of them with such depth that it easily carried me along...
While I don't feel well read enough to comment on greatest novel of all time, it is most definitely in my top five favorites ever read, likely top two... ;)
Kathleen wrote: "Sylwia wrote "I wondered about that too, Sylwia, and read online that there were stereotypes and distr..."Very interesting.
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I had totally forgotten about the mice.
I'm lagging and have about 100 pages to go. I'm not sure it would be the unrestricted greatest novel written in English, but it's sure great. I agree that it deals foremost in character, but there's plenty of plot in Middlemarch. For example, the appearance of Raffles drives much of the novel's last fourth. I attribute this much more to plotting (a blackmail plot) than Bulstrode's or Raffles's character. Of course, untangling plot from character is sometimes impossible. Has anyone commented on Middlemarch as code for the Ides of March?
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No -- I am clueless on this. Please comment.
In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, a seer warned Caesar to "Beware the Ides of March," which on the Roman calendar corresponds to March 15. Caesar was in fact assassinated on March 15, and the day is considered a turning point in Roman history. March 15 is basically the "middle of March," or "Middlemarch." The novel does reflect several turning points in English history, and so I wonder if Eliot had this at all in mind when she chose the name of the town and novel.
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Alex wrote: "In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, a seer warned Caesar to "Beware the Ides of March," which on the Roman calendar corresponds to March 15. Caesar was in fact assassinated on March 15, and the day is ..."Wow Alex!
And it isn't just turning points in English history, you have turning points for major characters as well. Think of Dorothea & Casaubon or Lydgate & Rosamond, once married their lives turn abruptly for the worse.
Now the word 'Ides' basically meant "middle of the month." So you are at the 50% mark, at a pivotal moment, maybe even a zenith. ...I may be over-analyzing this a bit...
Yes, I have the same question, why did Eliot call the novel 'Middlemarch"? I always thought it an odd name.
Kerstin wrote: "Alex wrote: "In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, a seer warned Caesar to "Beware the Ides of March," which on the Roman calendar corresponds to March 15. Caesar was in fact assassinated on March 15, an..."Right, turning points for almost all the characters. I don't think you're overanalyzing. In addition to the Ides of March, Eliot may have been getting at the long "march through life," being in the middle of it.
Alex wrote: "In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, a seer warned Caesar to "Beware the Ides of March," which on the Roman calendar corresponds to March 15. Caesar was in fact assassinated on March 15, and the day is ..."I second Kerstin's wow! Thank you Alex for that great insight. And yes, beware is appropriate in the case of their marriages. Now I want to read Julius Caesar with this in mind. I learn so much from this group!
Wow! Wonderful point there, Alex!I always thought Middlemarch was a name to depict the average (= middle). With that title "A Study of Provincial Life" I thought it was an analysis of a typical smaller English town. The "march" is the study. We, the readers, are being walked through the dynamics of the average English town.
Phil wrote: "Wow! Wonderful point there, Alex!I always thought Middlemarch was a name to depict the average (= middle). With that title "A Study of Provincial Life" I thought it was an analysis of a typical s..."
Thanks, Phil. Your interpretation of the "march" as a study is intriguing. I think some authors choose titles that are intended to work at multiple levels. They want the title to resonate.
Catching up on the comments here. Great insights and definitely give much to ponder. I've got about 150 pages left. I had hoped to have this wrapped up this month but our move has been more difficult than we planned. I did get to finish the Stranger with the group and am hoping to finish the Island of Dr. Moreau this week.
Raffles does seem to introduce more plot elements to the book but he doesn't take anything away from the character-driven nature of it. If anything he introduces even more depth to the characters since we see what has happened in Bulstrode's past and how it affects Will now. Both of their reactions to this and what it causes them to do is every bit a study of human nature as the rest of the book.
Also wanted to say in response to the portrayal of marriage, Eliot seems to have much to say regarding false expectations. We are only really given a close look into what happens with Dorothea and Causabon as well as Lydgate and Rosamond. All involved had poor views of what marriage would entail to begin with - it was basically something to get something out of. Were any of them interested in making the other happy? I think it could be argued that Dorothea was to some extent but even at root of that was her own selfishness.We really aren't given a big glimpse into the other marriages of Middlemarch (at least as far as I've read).
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
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On Poetry and Poets (other topics)Middlemarch (other topics)
Middlemarch (other topics)
Middlemarch (other topics)
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T.S. Eliot (other topics)George Eliot (other topics)
Juliet Stevenson (other topics)
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Rebecca Mead (other topics)
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Love you thoughts."
Thanks, Kathy. :)