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Middlemarch
Old School Classics, Pre-1915
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Middlemarch: Spoiler Discussion Thread
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Katy, Quarterly Long Reads
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Jan 17, 2016 02:06PM
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I agree, and often the fun of reading is watching the progression of characters like Dorothea as they learn from those experiences.
Too true, we don't know but Eliot eludes to that and I believe we all hoped for a change. How sad Dorothea's honeymoon was, he could have showed her so much. I've made it to Chapter hmmm, I can't find my phone (device where all audiobooks are played), well Featherstone is about to die, he's trying to get Mary to get the will from the lockbox. I must say in light of all she has gone through with him, she is a strong and ethical woman.The progression has changed my view of the book from that of drippy romance. There is much happening, people seem to be learning about themselves and on the whole the book has become quite interesting. I'm glad to have stuck with it.
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I hope we get to meet Mary more in the coming chapters.
I'm on book 3 chapter 23. I too think some are a little more tough on Dodo but at the same time she really is a frustrating character. The scenes in Rome had me shaking my head. Dodo and Cosauban have managed to turn the human being into nothing more than a proposition.
Yes, the honeymoon is where the veil is lifted on--Casaubon. Eliot reveals the irreparable flaws in his project and his unwillingness and inability to recognize his certain failure. I wonder if his motives for keeping Dorothea at arm's length from the work include his fear that she might catch on. Nakamura Reality
I am on book II, chapter 13 and I definitely need a support group and scones for fortitude.
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So i resumed reading and reached chapter IX...I understand what you mean...Causabons flowery speech reeks of superficiality...
And i like the questions posed by the author/comments after narrating some parts of the story..
I think dorothea looks upon Causabon more as a father figure..someone to teach her all things she wants to learn but is bot able to...i guess... I was too harsh in judging her....as it is repeatedly told it is as if she is naive to the point of not really understanding what marriage is....no common sense ,i guess
I like the Rector.....from all the cast...his wife is an interfering busybody...James chetthams ok....jolly good...
Celia..is quiet and loving enough but a bit uninvolved and worried too much about offending Dodo...a bit sly ...in that she does not directly confront Dorothea..but hints and jabs at her...still i like her common sense and peceptiveness...
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Yes! I think the rector is the most likable character so far. And the scones are delicious. Thanks Kathy!
I'm more than halfway through and I've come around some in reguards to Dorothea. As time (and her marriage) marches on I do see more kindness in her and a sincere wish to do good in the world. Before I saw her as much more self absorbed than I do now, and have sympathy for the awful marriage she is trapped in.Thanks to Alex, whose comments helped me broaden how I was viewing her...
I can now move on to be irritated by Rosamond, who gives new meaning to the term shallow, but again, such a reflection of the times for women and their limited options in life.
Still enjoying the ride...
I finished the first book. I am really enjoying it so far!I do like George Eliot’s humor:
“But now I wish her [Dorothea] joy of her hair shirt”
“even Milton, looking for his portrait in a spoon, must submit to have the facial angle of a bumpkin.”
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I think we must be near the same place -- I feel the same.
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I do like George Eliot’s humor:
“But now I wish her [Dorothea] joy of her hair shirt”
“even Milton, looking for his portrait in a spoon..."
Oh yes, those were delightful quotes.
Kathy wrote: "For all of you"Be sure to bring those for Satuday morning breakfast online. Hehehe. I tried to pluck one from the screen but to no avail. :-(
Ladislaw just replied to C by saying he wasn't leaving and Dorothea just told C that he should support Will..... I've got this delightful picture in my head of Causabon looking like a pinched prune when she said this.
“Here and there a cygnet is reared uneasily among the ducklings in the brown pond, and never finds the living stream in fellowship with its own oary-footed kind.”In the beginning, George Eliot mentions St. Teresa of Avila, the great saint who reformed the Carmelite order and great spiritual mystic. I find this comparison to Dorothea Brooke rather telling in the following ways:
Throughout the centuries Catholicism has always offered another option in life when a person wasn’t called to marriage, that of the religious life.
St. Teresa, growing up in catholic Spain took advantage of this added option. In the convent she receives a systematic education and guidance in her formative years which builds the foundation that later on allows her work to blossom into lasting greatness.
In contrast, Dorothea’s hunger for a structured education and thirst for spiritual guidance are almost nonexistent from without, since England became Anglican and abolished monasticism, and from within where her guardian uncle Mr. Brooke is barely giving the girls, her and her sister Celia, an education worthy of their station. Dorothea’s natural tendency to asceticism or detachment asks for at least an exploration if the religious life is a suitable fit. But the culture around her has no infrastructure left to even make something like it a possibility. So she is stuck with the ideal of the time that a woman of her social station was “accomplished” if she drew, sang, and played the piano.
What makes her isolation even more bleak is the fact that Mr. Brooke doesn’t really recognize her youthful aspirations and fails to give them proper guidance within the realm of the possible. So the story unfolds to the point where others readily see her engagement to Casaubon as a disaster in the making. “Sir James felt with some sadness that she was to have perfect liberty of misjudgment.” In the end she is left to fend for herself and naturally follows her immature adoration of the self-absorbed and ridiculous Casaubon into marriage.
Kerstin wrote: "“Here and there a cygnet is reared uneasily among the ducklings in the brown pond, and never finds the living stream in fellowship with its own oary-footed kind.”In the beginning, George Eliot me..."
Your comment very insightful: " Dorothea’s natural tendency to asceticism or detachment asks for at least an exploration if the religious life is a suitable fit. But the culture around her has no infrastructure left to even make something like it a possibility."
I agree that Casaubon is self-absorbed, but I think he becomes ridiculous mainly because of his marriage to Dorothea (the mismatch). His scholarly pursuits may eventually prove wrongheaded (he doesn't read German, so he doesn't know he's been beaten to the punch), but he does approach them in good faith--he thinks he's doing something important. Like many academics, he's found his niche he will live out his life there.
Susie wrote: "I'm more than halfway through and I've come around some in reguards to Dorothea. As time (and her marriage) marches on I do see more kindness in her and a sincere wish to do good in the world. Befo..."You're welcome, Susie. I'm reading Middlemarch for the second time. The first time, I was so I impressed that I recommended it to a volunteer at a local library. The next time I saw her, I asked how liked the book. She gave me a dirty look and I gave her no more recommendations. It's a demanding novel.
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LOL
Alex wrote: "I agree that Casaubon is self-absorbed, but I think he becomes ridiculous mainly because of his marriage to Dorothea (the mismatch). His scholarly pursuits may eventually prove wrongheaded (he doesn't read German, so he doesn't know he's been beaten to the punch), but he does approach them in good faith--he thinks he's doing something important. Like many academics, he's found his niche he will live out his life there. Good point! And from Casaubon's perspective I don't begrudge him of finally having found a woman he thinks is suitable for him. Unlike Mr. Brooke, he never liked being a bachelor. I think this is another poke of Eliot. If you are more the serious or intellectual type, how are you supposed to find a spouse when the culture does not support the equal education of men and women? In such a setting men loose just as much as women.
Thanks for the scones, Kathy..... still moving forward......!
Good morning/evening everyone!! How's the story developing now for each of you? I finished on Thursday and wrote my relatively sparse review of it also; I say sparse because in light of the length of the book a couple hundred words is just a blink of the eye.
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My breakfast consists of a fruit smoothie and later when I pass by my favorite bakery I will get a scone. It's a traveling day--which I was unaware of when I invited all to share your thoughts on the book last week. I was so impressed with both Rosamond and Celia in the end. I had a good many wicked thoughts of Rosamond being an evil dumb blonde but when she told Dorothea about Ladislaw I believe she rose a bit in my estimation of her.
Celia's little outburst was perfect to bring the family together again but I laughed that she truly believed only she can raise a baby properly.
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Kathy it really does get better. It's still a bit drippy but that's just the period in time. According to the linked review at the beginning of this thread I thought it was taking place over a much longer period of time but it's only a bit over a year.
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I had to be concentrated in listening as I had just 12 hours left before it needed to be returned to the digital library and there was a wait for the next availability.
Kathy wrote: "Actually at the point where I am in the book, the story has really picked up for me."Where are you at?
It's a very long story but I just kept counting off the chapters which overall weren't difficult. I was impressed with the narrator as the voices were so perfect for each person. The way she handled say, Mr Brooke and his "you know" really gave one a feeling of exasperation and pleasant regard for the old gentleman.
You know, I got the feeling in the end...and tell me what you think when you finish.....that maybe the story was based on a real person and she was trying to set the record straight for generations to come. Might be just wishful thinking but that thought came to me in the night after I finished.
Finished Book 3I think here we have Dorothea's situation in a nutshell:
"What was fresh to her mind was worn out to his; and such capacity of thought and feeling as had ever been stimulated in him by the general life of mankind had long shrunk to a sort of dried preparation, a lifeless embalmment of knowledge."
Edward may have accumulated much knowledge in his life, but he is no teacher. There is no eagerness or joy in him to transmit his knowledge to the next generation. He only wants to publish - another form of "lifeless embalmment of knowledge."
Rosamond and Fred:
"she never thought of money except as something necessary which other people would provide."
An all too common tale...and so are Fred's debts. These two certainly represent the stereotype of being the progeny of wealthy parents.
Lydgate:
"In half and hour he left the house an engaged man"
...the whole passage cracked me up!
Mary Garth:
"people were so ridiculous with their illusions, carrying their fool's caps unawares, thinking their own lies opaque while everybody else's were transparent, making themselves exceptions to everything, as if when all the world looked yellow under a lamp they alone were rosy."
Love it!
yea liking it at 35 % ....i esp love the authors comments...a glimpse into society and the various person inhabiting it ans the way they react to life.....
congrats kathy and rose on finishing it.i think i will take it slow.
Kirstin those are great examples of the characters. I just loved Mary Garth and even Fred after he turned out to be a good person. Mr. Fairbrother was such a good man and I was happy when Fred realized the kind of man he was up against.I really did think Dorothea was a good, honest and sincere woman. She made some mistakes but in the end was happier and I truly believe her love for Ladislaw made him a much better man.
Poor, poor Lydgate.....
Siriusedward I'm happy you are sticking with it.
The only real negative I have (other than the beginning being responsible for pain and suffering :) is that with the audiobook the quotes at each chapter were not translated (sometimes they are). If I had the written text I could translate them easily but such was not the case. I was going to record them but....maybe someday I will go back and translate them as they had a lovely sound when Kate Reading narrated.
Kathy, thank you for moderating. This has been quite enjoyable. I'll keep checking in. Off to hear The Moonstone.
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I was sometimes need of courage with this one but was a little afraid to come to this threat because of spoilers but I see that I could have done it! Great conversation here. I have finished the book last night. And it was a little hard and little slow in places but all the characters made it up for me. What a great insight of people and how some did frustrate me! But luckily even in the annoying persons there were glimpses of good.
I was almost sure to give it 3 stars but somehow in the end when I had really thought about it, I end up with 4 stars.
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Just finished Book 6.Here is a question to y'all: twice now it was mentioned that the dyes Mr. Vincy is using on his silk makes the silk rot.
Does anyone know anything about textile dyes and how they interact with the various fibers?
Was there a transition at the time from natural dyes to commercially produced/chemical dyes?
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Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural...
Kathy wrote: "... The iron mordants contribute to fabric deterioration, referred to as "dye rot". ... Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural..."
Thank you, Kathy!
...now I have to go back and re-read those passages. For what purpose would Eliot mention this when mordants were a necessary step in the dying process? Part of the process seems to be a calculated trade-off between color and fabric durability. In both passages Bulstrode is a key figure and he is full of calculated trade-offs...hmmmm, I think I'm getting closer... :)
I'm more than halfway through and by now many of the subplots have kicked in. I'm happy that even Eliot has to resort to a little trick to set one subplot in motion. When Raffles visits Rigg to hit him up for money, Raffles randomly snatches up a letter from Rigg's desk to stabilize his brandy flask in its leather holster. The letter is from Bulstrode and of great importance. Raffles strides out with it. Chance. So much great stuff. Eliot's narrator notes, "We hear with more keenness what we want others not to hear." I would have sworn that "trash talk" was a modern colloquialism, but on 426, the narrator says, "The trash talked on such occasions..." Whatever the negatives of Rosamond, she's got a sharp sense of humor. She says to Lydgate after a discussion on the merits of his profession, "Very well, Doctor Grave-face, I will declare in future that I dote on skeletons, and body snatchers, and bits of things in phials, and quarrels with everybody that end in your dying miserably." Nakamura Reality
Finished the book :)I am really impressed by the sheer skill of George Eliot to write a book of this magnitude, scores of characters and sub-plots, and the narrative moving along without much of a hitch. If some of the segments were a little long in the tooth it was more my impatience with getting on with the story, not Eliot’s deliberate pace of setting the scene, of further developing the characters and advancing the plot.
Having said this, my overall impression of the book is that her realism really tends to have a severe bite towards the end, despite some happy outcomes. There are few characters one can be sympathetic to. The atmosphere within the “provincial elite” is quite cold and self-serving, with very little authentic compassion let alone mercy shown even among family members or life-long friends. All is subordinated to the highest virtue in a highly stratified society: social standing and public perception. There is an expectation of human perfectionism that no-one can meet consistently. This is especially cruel to those whose mistakes are recoverable given a little compassion.
Marriage is a big theme in Middlemarch, and Eliot’s perspective is that of various dysfunction. While her ability of keen observation is noteworthy, I am not so sure she is in a position to write about marriage in a comprehensive fashion. Her own life was too much a rebellion against the institution.
Some say that Middlemarch is the best British novel ever written. I wouldn’t go that far. In this particular case one cannot escape the comparison with Jane Austen, who with satire, wit, and irony exposed the weaknesses and absurdities of the landed gentry – and still managed to create loveable characters. In my estimation, when you expose and disarm with humor, you always have the sharper weapon.
Kerstin wrote: "Finished the book :)I am really impressed by the sheer skill of George Eliot to write a book of this magnitude, scores of characters and sub-plots, and the narrative moving along without much of ..."
I completely agree with your first paragraph...the writing is amazing!
The way she tells the story, by putting you in it and then seamlessly weaving her commentary in, reveals her mastery in writing.
Good job finishing! I am very close... :)
Whew...finished it! Very surprised at how much I enjoyed this read!I'm usually not one to ever reread a book, but this one might be the first...in a couple years, of course! ;)
Oh yeah...I totally changed my view of Dorothea by the end...love when a book can do that for a reader...
I finished Middlemarch yesterday and, after having a little while to process it, have decided that I am a much better person for having read it. I guess that is what they say about all great books. The shear scope by which Eliot is able to transfer/transmit her take on the meaning of life (I think it could be, in a way, described as an existential novel) is extraordinary. The canvas that she has chosen to use in this monumental task is life itself, all of it. The novel is about a town, it could be any town in any time and at any place, and the characters, the inhabitants of this town, could be anyone as well. The novel is about life in this town as seen through an omniscient, omnipresent narrator. And, as these characters live out their lives in this town, we get to see a birds-eye view of what those lives entail - all the personalities, relationships, births, deaths, mistakes, loves, hates.... all of it is here. But what I find most remarkable about this book (and it is one of the things I found most remarkable about War & Peace by Tolstoy as well) is that she has been able to portray, in this rather mundane of settings, plots and characters, a full spectrum of what it is to live life and grow as human beings. We all make mistakes and learn from them, have some qualities we wish to encourage and others we wish to transcend. I feel that if we can look into this book hard enough, we will find reflections of ourselves and be able to use those reflections to grow. We are all ultimately mirrors for each other on this journey of life and George Eliot has, for me, been able to create in written form the ultimate mirror for all of us. And, again for me, I truly consider this book a masterpiece. Did I mention that I loved it too? ;-)
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Love you thoughts.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
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