Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Interim Readings
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Two Funeral Orations
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They're very different types of speeches, as different I suppose as Pericles was from Lincoln, and as different as the American Civil War was from the Peloponnesian War. There is certainly more glory in Pericles's speech, while in Lincoln's there seems to be a sad resolve. One point of similarity though is that both agree that deeds speak louder than words.
Pericles: For heroes have the whole earth for their tomb; and in lands far from their own, where the column with its epitaph declares it, there is enshrined in every breast a record unwritten with no monument to preserve it, except that of the heart.
Lincoln: But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate-we can not consecrate-we can not hallow-this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.
The occasion of both speeches is one of lamentation, but the purpose is to inspire hope in the cause. Neither war is over yet and more young soldiers will fall.
Thomas wrote: "Lincoln: But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate-we can not consecrate-we can not hallow-this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. ..."To me some of the most powerful and memorable words in "The Gettysburg Address," to be followed by the ironic ones: "The world will little note nor long remember what we say here..."
Do we remember what they did here? In what ways, in what senses?
Who here has visited Gettysburg? Even after being there, I cannot readily put into words my reactions, except how terribly human, brutal, good decisions, bad decisions, ..., those days must have been.
Lily wrote: "Who here has visited Gettysburg? Even after being there, I cannot readily put into words my reactions, except how terribly human, brutal, good decisions, bad decisions, ..., those days must have been. "I have, and I agree.
But I suspect that I would feel much the same way, having read the Iliad, if I stood on the plains before Troy. Isn't that universal to any great field of battle?
I've walked the battlefields of Gettysburg and Troy, and many others--Stirling Bridge, Bannockburn, Constantinople, St. Albans, Louisburg, Plains of Abraham, Bunker Hill, Saratoga, Princeton, Yorktown, Ft. McHenry, New Orleans, Ft. Sumter, Bull Run, Balls Bluff, Cross Keys, Winchester, Cedar Creek, Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Vicksburg, the Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Petersburg, Verdun, Pearl Harbor, and others. They're all very quiet, serene, and peaceful. The valor and suffering there no more leave a mark on the place than the joy of two lovers leaves a mark on the field of clover where they lay.
Lincoln's comment is ironic. We remember his speech but that's not his point. He calls it correctly when he predicts that we don't mark or note the battles of the Civil War very well. Some are already being turned over to developers who want to build shopping centers. There's been a few legal wrangles over these sites and more--no doubt--to follow.
Roger wrote: "The valor and suffering there no more leave a mark on the place than the joy of two lovers leaves a mark on the field of clover where they lay..."How poignantly put. Thank you, Roger.
I've visited few battle sites in person, but do occasionally visit again my copy of Battles that Changed History and a few other war-related volumes in my collection. But, it is the television images that most shape my perceptions of the devastation of modern warfare -- half of apartment buildings in Lebanon, the days at the height of race riots in the '70's, targeted strikes, .... Most recently Anthony Marra's A Constellation of Vital Phenomena has been influencing my thoughts about the costs of internecine violence. About the U.S. Civil War, I am really quite ignorant -- Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels was probably what I had read closest to visiting Gettysburg. I remember envisioning where cannon were placed, what hills were charged on horseback, crazy details like those, and realizing I know virtually nothing about warfare.
Lily wrote: "Do we remember what they did here? In what ways, in what senses?..."Here's one set of responses to my question:
"Five Reasons the Battle of Gettysburg Mattered"
http://history1800s.about.com/od/civi...
A bit more on the "Battle of Gettysburg"
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/c...
Are there Civil War buffs among us who could suggest more to the rest of us?
As Civil War buffs go I am a dilletante, but I like Stars in Their Courses: The Gettysburg Campaign, June-July 1863, which is taken from Shelby Foote's three-volume history of the war. The story of the 20th Maine and the battle for Little Round Top is worth the price of admission alone.
Thomas wrote: "As Civil War buffs go I am a dilletante, but I like Stars in Their Courses: The Gettysburg Campaign, June-July 1863, which is taken from Shelby Foote's three-volume history of the war...."I agree. You can't beat Foote for narrative history of the war.
Roger wrote: "I agree. You can't beat Foote for narrative history of the war. ..."He certainly has that reputation. Somehow, his tomes have always appeared so overwhelming if one wasn't a Civil War buff. Perhaps Stars... could be a bit-sized chunk. The description here on Goodreads makes it sound like a good excerpt.
Turning to Pericles, I was interested in his statement that "Mankind are tolerant of the praises of others so long as each hearer thinks that he can do as well or nearly as well himself, but, when the speaker rises above him, jealousy is aroused and he begins to be incredulous." Is this true? Do you think people do resent praise of others when they don't think they could have done as well themselves?
For myself, I don't feel that way; for example, when the astronauts who went to the moon are praised, I realize that I could never bring myself to go into space or take the risks that astronauts do, but I have no resentment at all of their being praised or, when they die eulogized for their deeds. But perhaps I'm unusual in this?
Perhaps Pericles means that we can tolerate this praise so long as we can be inspired by it or take a lesson from it? If we believe we could never do as well ourselves, under any circumstances, then how can we relate to the deceased? We can't worship a deceased mortal being, and thinking of him as a unique freak of nature - never to be emulated - doesn't seem too respectful. We are left with incredulity.
Thucydides greatness as historian is for his analysis not only geopolitical but also psychological. I think that the observation refer not to the heroes (as astronauts) but in general sense to the people of same level. Take at school the teacher praise an excellent student..(Excuse my English I am Italian)
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Stars in Their Courses: The Gettysburg Campaign, June-July 1863 (other topics)Stars in Their Courses: The Gettysburg Campaign, June-July 1863 (other topics)
Battles that Changed History (other topics)
A Constellation of Vital Phenomena (other topics)
The Killer Angels (other topics)
The first is Pericles's Funeral Oration from Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War, given in 431 BC after the first year of that war. It was the custom in Greece to give a public funeral for those who died in war. Thucydides sets the scene this way:
In the same winter the Athenians gave a funeral at the public cost to those who had first fallen in this war. It was a custom of their ancestors, and the manner of it is as follows. Three days before the ceremony, the bones of the dead are laid out in a tent which has been erected; and their friends bring to their relatives such offerings as they please. In the funeral procession cypress coffins are borne in cars, one for each tribe; the bones of the deceased being placed in the coffin of their tribe. Among these is carried one empty bier decked for the missing, that is, for those whose bodies could not be recovered. Any citizen or stranger who pleases, joins in the procession: and the female relatives are there to wail at the burial. The dead are laid in the public sepulcher in the Beautiful suburb of the city, in which those who fall in war are always buried; with the exception of those slain at Marathon, who for their singular and extraordinary valour were interred on the spot where they fell. After the bodies have been laid in the earth, a man chosen by the state, of approved wisdom and eminent reputation, pronounces over them an appropriate panegyric; after which all retire. Such is the manner of the burying; and throughout the whole of the war, whenever the occasion arose, the established custom was observed. Meanwhile these were the first that had fallen, and Pericles, son of Xanthippus, was chosen to pronounce their eulogium. When the proper time arrived, he advanced from the sepulchre to an elevated platform in order to be heard by as many of the crowd as possible, and spoke as follows:
Pericles's speech follows. Here is a link to one version of the text (there are many on the Internet):
http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/educatio...
The other funeral oration, of course, is Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, delivered in 1863.
http://voicesofdemocracy.umd.edu/linc...