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The Wolf and the Dove
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Gaol/BOTM > BOTM December 1 to 15 - The Wolf and The Dove (Bodice Ripper)

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message 1: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod


Discussion thread for December 1 to 15, 2015 BOTM. Please remember to use the spoiler tags when necessary! (please see "some html is ok" for instructions)

Happy reading! :)



The Wolf

Noble Aislinn grieves as the Iron Wolf and his minions storm through her beloved Darkenwald. And she burns with malice for the handsome Norman savage who would enslave her. . .even as she aches to know the rapture of the conqueror's kiss.


The Dove

For the first time ever, mighty Wulfgar has been vanquished - and by a bold and beautiful princess of Saxon blood. He must have the chaste, sensuous enchantress who is sworn to his destruction. And he will risk life itself to nurture with tender passion a glorious union born in the blistering heat of hatred and war.



Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments This is one of the greatest bodice rippers of all time, IMHO.

Read it a couple of times in the 80's and again a couple of years ago. It still stood the test of time, purple prose and all. Just a great story.

Enjoy those reading it for the first time.


message 3: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
That would be me, a first timer. I have a copy of this in paperback, inherited from my aunt but I never got around to it because back then I found that it's soooo long.


message 4: by Priya (last edited Nov 30, 2015 11:59PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Priya (priyachennareddy) | 1544 comments Mod
Kat Desi wrote: "That would be me, a first timer. I have a copy of this in paperback, inherited from my aunt but I never got around to it because back then I found that it's soooo long."

Too long. Thats was my first thought when I picked this book 2 years ago. Once I started reading, I loved it so much I couldn't put it down till I finished it.

Hope you too enjoy the read


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments This book was my first HR ever! I read it when I was a teenager in high school.

Also, in case some of you didn't know, we owe all of this steamy sex/love scenes that takes place in HR TODAY to the goddess KEW.

KEW has the distinction of being the first HR author to take the reader into the bedroom for the sex that took place with the H/h with her first book (TWATD being her second) The Flame and the Flower (and yes the the H rapes the h in that title).

Until KEW flung open the bedroom doors in HR, other HR writers merely "faded to black"--sex took place off of the page.

End of my HR history lesson.


message 6: by Sawyer (new)

Sawyer Belle (sawyerbelle) | 21 comments I've long been a KEW fan. I've read this one in paperback several times and it had a different cover than the one shown on here. I love the old paperback cover. Enjoy this one y'all!!


message 7: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
I've read The Flame and the Flower earlier this year. I couldn't remember any rape happening in there... or I'm just desensitized because I've already read so many dark erotica and/or extreme horror books.

I thought it was Susan Johnson who took it to the next level. But then again I have read a lot of HRs but not as much as you ladies. ;) I better catch up.

Thanks, Priya! I hope so too


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I'm a little desensitized too, but women who are more sensitive than I am object to Flame and Flower AND Wolf and the Dove and see dubcon/noncon as rape. In the case of Wolf and the Dove, I see it as the "traitorous body" trope. But some see that as rape as well.


message 9: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I'm a little desensitized too, but women who are more sensitive than I am object to Flame and Flower AND Wolf and the Dove and see dubcon/noncon as rape. In the case of Wolf and the Dove, I see it ..."

You have a point there. I tend to forget that some cannot stand that, or consider it as a hard limit.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I'm grateful for folks with hard limits, because I use their one -star reviews and outrage of pre-2k HR to sniff out bodice rippers, which I'd like to identify before I read so I can shelve them as such before reading.


message 11: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Good reference!

I want to read more bodice rippers, I'm making it my reading goal for next year. Are there any that are a bit more explicit?


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments The love scenes themselves in the 70s and 80s HR and bodice rippers are often not as steamy as the HR written in more recent yours.

Is this what you mean?


Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Rosemary Rogers generally had the steamiest bodice rippers as I remember.


message 14: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Yes, Andrea. Does it still count as Bodice Ripper if it's published post 70s/80s?

Thanks, Lisa. I'll check it out :)


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I'm still "saving" RR. I have all of the Morgan-Challenger titles incl SSL. TeeHee!

Lisa have you read Stormfire?


Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Yes. I read it for the first time last year.

It is the gold standard of bodice rippers. My review is on here if you want to take a look.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I think in the 90s writers started "toning down" the stuff
(un-Pc elements) in the 90s.

Also, beware of buying for example a title that was un-pc or bodice ripper in 80s as an eBook or a recent edition. Some of these books get altered to make them more palatable and Pc for "modern" readers. When I buy old bodice rippers, I try to buy edition first year published (print) or the earliest edition I can find. The publishers do not make it known that the book has been changed from early print edition.

Amazon used book marketplace doesn't tell what edition your getting but thriftbooks.com, Betterworldbooks.com and ABE books do provide that info (publication year of the edition).


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments Lisa I'll look at your review.

I read two mm books that like Stormfire the MCs in those two mm books got off on a wrong foot similar to MCs in Stormfire. I just loved how the authors in these three books take MCs who should be lifelong enemies and establish a deep love connection.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments After I paid $20+ for copy of Stormfire, I found out someone had scanned it and put it up online on Interned as it is out of print and the author is dead.

Lisa have you read Teresa Denys' 1) Silver Devil and 2) Flesh and the Devil? The author is dead and both both of these are out of print. These two are crazypants bodice rippers with psycho (anti) heroes.


message 20: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
I LOVE ANTI HEROES!!!

$20!?


message 21: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I think in the 90s writers started "toning down" the stuff
(un-Pc elements) in the 90s.

Also, beware of buying for example a title that was un-pc or bodice ripper in 80s as an eBook or a recent e..."


Noted. Thanks. :)


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments The heroes in Stormfire and I think SSL and the two "Devil" books and perhaps Whitney My Love have "heroes" who would be the villain if there were a nicer Male MC in the story.


message 23: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Ok I added the two--not yet sure about the Teresa Denys books yet.


message 24: by Sawyer (new)

Sawyer Belle (sawyerbelle) | 21 comments It is true that some e-versions or re-releases of older bodice rippers have been altered but I don't necessarily think it's being done by publishers to be more PC. In one case, one of my favorite authors, Marsha Canham re-released one of her pirate bodice rippers and she changed the first sex scene,
During which there H raped the h. She blogged about why she changed the scene. She said that back in the 80s when she was writing it, her publisher and editor made her write it that way, since it was so popular and she had a contract but she was never comfortable with it. Now that she has the rights back, she changed it to the way she wanted it and re-released it as a self published book. I thought that was interesting.


Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "After I paid $20+ for copy of Stormfire, I found out someone had scanned it and put it up online on Interned as it is out of print and the author is dead.

Lisa have you read Teresa Denys' 1) Silve..."


Andrea, after hearing so much about The Silver Devil I read it about 2 years ago. I was really disappointed the characters were so one dimensional and the hero was just a nasty creep. I couldn't get one bit of romance out of the story. And the writing style was so stilted. Just my opinion of course but I only gave it 2 stars.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments Sawyer, the writers or publishers do not always make it clear that they have rewritten or changed from the early editions for eBooks. That's my complaint.

I actually prefer eBook to print and I don't think the author's make any money from used book sales, which I don't think is fair, but since it is not made clear for many old titles that they have been changed, I'm going with a used early edition copy.

Lisa, that's too bad "Silver Devil" wasn't good or well-written. I'll still give it a try since I have it though but I'll consider myself warned.


message 27: by Historical Romance Lurver, Aesthete (last edited Dec 02, 2015 05:22AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Historical Romance Lurver (historicalromanclurver) | 101 comments Mod
Ripping into the bodice of the The Wolf and the Dove. <3 this subG.
Looking forward to this one, although struggling to tear myself away from Scottish romance.
x


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I hope you enjoy tWatD Suzie!


Historical Romance Lurver (historicalromanclurver) | 101 comments Mod
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I hope you enjoy tWatD Suzie!"
Thank you Andrea :) Only 1 chapter in, so far so good. x


Loriidae | 1098 comments This book has been at the top of my best book ever list for many years, Devil's Cub by Georgette Heyer being a close second. I first read The Wolf and the Dove as a teenager from the library in about 1977. I bought my own copy as a young adult and through every move and downsize, this book has made a home in the re-read pile. Happy to visit a very old friend with people reading it for the first time.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments Loriidae, we both read this book for the first time around the same year--late 70s and around at the same age.

:)


Loriidae | 1098 comments Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I'm a little desensitized too, but women who are more sensitive than I am object to Flame and Flower AND Wolf and the Dove and see dubcon/noncon as rape. In the case of Wolf and the Dove, I see it ..."

For me it is the historical setting that counts. I love both The Wolf and the Dove and The Flame and the Flower, but I did recently stop reading a contemporary romance author with similar story lines, because it is not acceptable in a male today.

It is the same with books from the 1600's when it was legal to marry a 12 year old girl. Disgusting in a contemporary novel but acceptable in a novel set in 1600.


message 33: by Andrea AKA Catsos Person (last edited Dec 04, 2015 07:53PM) (new) - added it

Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments Loriidae, expressed what was on my mind exactly.

The stuff I'll put with in HF or HR I could not endure in a CR, but then I never read CR with M/F MCs. My hetero romance reading is always HR.

I try very hard to check my 21st C sensibilities at the door when I delve into the past through fiction and through much of history, life was not pretty for women and female children.


message 34: by Loriidae (last edited Dec 09, 2015 06:25PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Loriidae | 1098 comments "For a long time he sat in his brideless bower and mused on the follies of love-smitten men. Yet he made no admissions even to himself and finally rationalized his reaction as beding due to the easy,tranquil life of Darkenwald."

Every time I re-read I enjoy Wulfgar's transformation....


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I enjoy Wulfar's transformation too. He starts off as very cynical about women.


message 36: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Could not find my copy yet. :/


message 37: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
But I'm glad that a lot of you have enjoyed it. I hope it will turn up this weekend.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments Will this be a re-read for you Kat?


message 39: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Not at all, but I have a copy of it. I'm sure of it. It might be up the attic.


message 40: by Loriidae (last edited Dec 11, 2015 01:06PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Loriidae | 1098 comments Martha wrote: "...She has always been one of my favorites and probably one of the first HR authors I read. ...

Me too, I showed my husband last night, what I was reading and told him about going to the library (during school holidays only - I was banned during term)as a teenager in the mid-seventies and diligently searching every carousel for books with the Troubadour publishing logo on them. My mum would have been horrified at what I was reading, including Sweet Savage Love.


message 41: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
FOUND IT!

Not too crazy about the start of the book. So far I'm a bit bored...


Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Really Kat... Hope you enjoy it more as it goes along.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments I wonder if I'd still like it as well if I read it now...


Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Loriidae wrote: "Martha wrote: "...She has always been one of my favorites and probably one of the first HR authors I read. ...

Me too, I showed my husband last night, what I was reading and told him about going ..."


Loriidae... I was big fan of the Troubadour books back in the 70's and 80's too. They started my lifetime love of romance novels.


Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I wonder if I'd still like it as well if I read it now..."

I've re-read it about five years ago and it still stood the test of time for me. Purple prose and all, LOL.


Andrea AKA Catsos Person (catsosperson) | 1635 comments That's good to know its still good.


Loriidae | 1098 comments My apologies but what do you class as "purple prose", I haven't heard the term.


message 48: by Lisa - (Aussie Girl) (last edited Dec 13, 2015 08:52PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa - (Aussie Girl) | 286 comments Here's the definition via Wikipedia.

"In literary criticism, purple prose is prose text that is so extravagant, ornate, or flowery as to break the flow and draw excessive attention to itself. Purple prose is characterized by the extensive use of adjectives, adverbs, zombie nouns, and metaphors."

Bodice Rippers are full of them - it was the style de jour of the 80's and 90's. They also used a lot of creative euphemisms for certain parts of the male and female anatomy!


message 49: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Lisa - (Aussie Girl) wrote: "Really Kat... Hope you enjoy it more as it goes along."

I hope so too.


message 50: by Kat, Baroness (in her own right) (new) - added it

Kat Desi (katdesiwrites) | 480 comments Mod
Lisa - (Aussie Girl) wrote: "They also used a lot of creative euphemisms for certain parts of the male and female anatomy!"

Indeed... Rod and petals. :s


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