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Book 15 - Fool's Quest > FOOL'S QUEST :Re-Read (FULL SPOILERS) Chapters 33-36

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message 1: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments How many chapters are there? I don't have the book to hand! :-)


message 2: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments 38 chapters. And then a long minstrel pause...


message 3: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments Alfred wrote: "38 chapters. And then a long minstrel pause..."

Wake up minstrels...time to shine. :-p


message 4: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 04, 2015 01:10PM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Lant:

- why is he so desperate to follow Fitz? Or, why is Chade so desperate to have him follow Fitz?

- Alfred gave Lant an "F" for his previous packing. I think this time he should get an "A." Lant has learned, and is at his best here. Doesn't whine, treats Per as an equal, is willing to learn from Per, etc.


message 5: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Haha ok Ash09. An "A" for Lant. Well deserved.


message 6: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments Lant is still a really annoying disjointed character. He is supposed to be the intelligent, pitiable young lordling, who, through no fault of his own, is being hunted by his horrid family- but he behaves like a spineless spoilt brat, and has a near foppish in the disregard towards Bee and the kids he was supposed to be teaching at Withywoods. He doesn't have one ounce of Chade's mastery or cunning in him. He only gets a bit starry eyed when Shun comes on the scene. She has more of Chade in her than her half brother.


message 7: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Junie wrote: "Yayyyy! An A!! Hurray for Lant! How about Per? Alfred, you gave him a C+!"

Now you're pushing it...!
Of course Per gets "A" too. Foresight in bringing the versatile butterfly cloak. It's like that one piece in every fashionista's wardrobe that can be worn to all occasions. Not that I know anything about fashion, honestly.


message 8: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 04, 2015 03:51PM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Scarletine wrote: "Lant is still a really annoying disjointed character. He is supposed to be the intelligent, pitiable young lordling, who, through no fault of his own, is being hunted by his horrid family..."

ita he was horrid at Withywoods. Everyone kept telling Fitz that Lant was a great guy, charismatic, etc., give him a chance! and he turned out to be a horrible human being. He's improved, though. He risks his life rushing into a pillar with Fitz (WHY????). He has packed useful things, so he can be practical. He learns how to stir a porridge from Per, so maybe the class-obsessed side of him has calmed a bit. He's better than he was, anyway.


message 9: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Ash09 wrote: "He learns how to stir a porridge from Per, so maybe the class-obsessed side of him has calmed a bit"

Agree with the "calmed a bit" part, but as Scarletine said, Lant's still a bit of a spoiled brat. When Per offered to cook the apples, Lant said, "It’s in my pack. Fetch it for me and I’ll find the apples for you.” Then Fitz called him out. “No.” ....“Fetch it yourself, Lant...For the next three days, you’ll do everything for yourself.

Fitz gave Lant an ultimatum. Shape up or get out. Lant has no choice but to pull his own weight. If he wants to be on this quest, he has to earn it. So, that begs Ash09’s next question...

Ash09 wrote: "He risks his life rushing into a pillar with Fitz (WHY????).

He's trying to prove himself worthy. To Chade, to the Farseers, to himself. As Scarletine said, he has none of Chade's cunning. Nor his sister’s Skill or street-smart. He’s a bastard of a bastard. His cousin, the other bastard, has no respect for him. He has no title, wealth or life skills. He exists in court only by the grace of the Farseers, who has taken him in like a rescued puppy from the pound.

However, Lant scores brownie points for trying. He’s like a puppy that’s been kicked bloody to the curb and crawls back out. Just refusing to die. When he risked his life rushing into the pillar with Fitz, I think it’s because he has nothing to live for but a chance to gain self-esteem. There was a theory about Chade riding Lant’s mind to come along on this quest. Hmmm… maybe. I see nothing Chady about Lant’s behavior though. He also learns from mistakes. By being well-provisioned for this trip and humbling himself to learn from Per.

This Lantern is just waiting to be lit. I can grow to like this kid.


message 10: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Alfred wrote: "He’s like a puppy that’s been kicked bloody to the curb and crawls back out. Just refusing to die. When he risked his life rushing into the pillar with Fitz, I think it’s because he has nothing to live for but a chance to gain self-esteem"

ok so Lant's now my favorite character, because, puppy! No, he's not.

It was probably always shape up or die for him, and maybe he just figured it out? Still, a suicidal quest is an odd choice for him. Chade says that people are drawn to him. He's attractive, knows how to dress up and flatter, has some basic learning. He sounds like a perfect person to stay at court and network. Maybe Chade wants to toughen him up.


message 11: by Alfred (last edited Dec 04, 2015 07:11PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Haha I thought the puppy might tug at some heartstrings.

I don't think suicide was Lant's intent. I think he was just stupid. He figured there was nothing to lose so might as well go for it but never thought how it also risked Fitz's life including his own.

Yeah, Lant is learned and metrosexual. Perfect for court. Perfect for getting easily killed too! Maybe that's exactly why Chade sent him away. To get the fop beaten out and some sense beaten into Lant. Maybe Chade also knows about Lant and Shine's one night dalliance. Separate the two. One to train in sharpening Skill and the other to train in sharpening wits.


message 12: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments Alfred wrote: "Haha I thought the puppy might tug at some heartstrings.

I don't think suicide was Lant's intent. I think he was just stupid. He figured there was nothing to lose so might as well go for it but n..."


Yes, the incest...how very aristocratic! Who do we think seduced whom? Shine seem's to be a bit of a coquette... and Lant is just a stupid boy...Must have stung to realize he'd done that with his half sister. Ouch!...Hobb just had to throw another dirty secret and layer of dysfunction into the Farseer's family!


message 13: by Alfred (last edited May 03, 2017 05:21PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Last night I had chinese take out. My fortune cookie said, "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. - Lao-Tzu". How apt! Thus begins Fitz's quest to Clerres in chp 33. After many missteps, Fitz finally took the one step that mattered - through the pillar. And of course, "Stupidity happened!", shouted Fitz. Dumb and Dumber came along like fleas in a wolf’s fur. An itch that won’t go away.

Per’s loyalty has no regard for his own safety. He told Fitz ”I followed to serve you as I vowed to do. To avenge my Lady Bee, whose colors I wear.” A worthy sidekick, this one, even if somewhat gung-ho. I hope Hobb has great plans for him.

Spark’s loyalty to Fool is no different than Per’s to Fitz, I feel. We discussed in earlier chps that Fool may be too ruthless to care for Spark’s safety when going through the pillars in quick succession. It is my belief that Spark won’t have it any other way either. ”And the Fool told her that she didn’t have to go, that she could stay here and wait, but Spark told him not to be foolish, that he needed her eyes.”

The reunion with Verity was very moving. Was it a dream or real? Was Fitz subconsciously trying to die of cold because of hopelessness? ”when I was emptied far beyond tears or hopes of vengeance, I stood still and empty in the cold beside the frozen dragon. A foolish quest. I was here for the night now, with no tent, no fire.” Regardless, I think Fitz was re-charged after that night. Later,he caught a hare! And grinned at Per and Lant!

I was really ecstatic that Fool joined Fitz so early as opposed to a mid-journey reunion. Fool’s appearance in FA was so late and so dire, that my default setting is extreme paranoia on everything Fool. Even though Amber has not made an appearance in front of Fitz in this chp, the mere mention of Fool in action energized the pace. My goose bumps felt electrified!

Scarletine wrote: "Lady Thyme's room...I didn't understand the need for the whole Narnia 'through the wardrobe' malarkey..."

Maybe when Fool was emerging through the wardrobe, Hobb was trying create a metaphor of the Fool coming out of the closet…?


message 14: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments The reunion with Verity was beautiful...and i'm wondering why Verity came to Fitz now?...when years before Fitz had tried to reach him and there was nothing there. Do you think that the fact his skill strength has improved markedly from being stuck in the pillar could have anything to do with it? I am keen to find out just how powerful Fitz skill becomes...(but there is always a payoff for using it!)

I was also SO relieved that Fool appeared earlier in the Journey to Clerres...and the significance of F/F being together in the Pillar plaza where they had their spiritual/sexual joining, and Fool was resurrected. I actually sobbed all through this chapter. Finding Fool's elderling tent...sob...There was such a wonderful circularity to it...a tying of threads and finding new threads to follow...that new thread being Bee...who was, for all intents and purposes, part-concieved in that stone plaza.

I think the horse has bolted on that 'out of the closet' metaphor...we ALL know Fool is gay and loves one man alone, especially after the argument in 'Golden Fool' and Fools reaction to the rumors that Lord Golden takes his manservant for bedding (i wish he did!)


message 15: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments These are lovely chapters. There is one hilarious bit where the Fool goes "remember when I was dead and we were camping," and Fitz is "how could I forget!" while Per and Lant are looking at them and going "what???"

Re Fool and closets: I'm still not sure what gender he is, but they probably don't care about gender where he grew up, so imo he's always been out, but reticent, because of Fitz. Fitz needs to come out of his "I'm not bi" closet, fast.


message 16: by Alfred (last edited Dec 06, 2015 05:47AM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Junie wrote: " Sooooooo.... I am probably going to make many fans really mad here but NOT EVERYONE knows or believes Fool is gay or a male...."

Out of town this weekend with limited WiFi and no book with me...

So, what is this? Should I reply long or short? Either way, I put myself in the crossfire between opposing duelists!

Camp straight and camp gay. No, I am not asking anyone to pick a side. Please don't feel inclined to. I daresay the majority of commenters here lean one way but I am fairly sure - anecdotally - there is a huge population of readers out there who were happy for Fitz and Molly, and leans the opposite way.

Whatever. Does it matter in the end? I just want Fitz and Fool to find happiness. Even if it's at the expense of my own.

(Junie: if I am any kind of bags, I prefer to be Louis Vuitton)


message 17: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Hope out of towning was fun!

How about camp I don't want the Fool to die a virgin or a near-virgin, so I don't care, so long as he gets some with Fitz?

Of course I'd prefer Fool as boy, but whatever.


message 18: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Ash09 wrote: "Hope out of towning was fun! How about camp I don't want the Fool to die a virgin or a near-virgin, so I don't care, so long as he gets some with Fitz?"

Thanks! It was! Home and ready to hit the sack. Before I get some shut-eye, I'll pitch my tent over at your camp. For goodness sake, the Fool is a prophet not a monk.

On a sober note, I have to be true to my calling. The facts. And the facts are inconclusive. So far. But like you said, whatever. Sex first, then facts!


message 19: by Emma (new)

Emma  | 92 comments Camp "Just as it is now" gets my vote.

I enjoy the mystery around the Fool's gender, and although I'm more inclined to believe he's male than female, if it were definitely revealed I'd be slightly disappointed. I'm all for Fitz just accepting him and loving him with no eye for the details, just as the Fool has always wanted, and it seems he's finally there! "He is who he is," he says at one point, and that's just the truest form of love, don't you think? It was one of my favourite parts of this book, just because its so significant. How deeply do you have to love and accept someone to get to that point? Pretty deeply. In past books, Fitz has been trying to pin down the Fool's identity as if he needed to be a certain way - either male or female, gay or straight, and the Fool hated it. Now they accept and understand each other just as they are. Unconditionally. It's great.

As for them having sex, I'd feel weird about it. That isn't who Fitz is, and I don't think its who the Fool is, either. He'd never want Fitz to compromise himself for his benefit. He already hates doing it as a white prophet, I think it would cheapen him if he did it as a lover?

Anyway, its never truly been a part of their dynamic, and the question was raised during that argument and put down for good. Fitz isnt capable, and the Fool has accepted that. If anything, them getting frisky now would seem just..weird. Besides, I always thought the Fool's view was that they didn't need it. And I agree. This relationship is the most intimate I've ever read about, and them getting nekkid wouldn't exactly add anything to that. If anything, it'd be a step backwards.

So gay/straight, male/female, sexy times/celibate...seems to have nothing to do with their happiness. Though part of me wants Hobb to bring it up again, just because they've both changed and been through so much since The Arguement...I wonder if their views would be different, now? Either way, I think the end result would be the same: sexless soul mates. Fair enough.

I'm past them needing to resolve/explore each other, I think. They are as they are. Though I'm interested to see where they go next, I hope they do it hand in hand, and seeing eye to eye.


message 20: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Emma Jane wrote: “Camp "Just as it is now" gets my vote.”

This is a thoughtful post. I want to hang out at your campfire toasting marshmallows and chat more. However, at dusk, it’s best I set my tent back at Ash09’s “sex-for-Fool” camp. Camp "Just as it is now" is fine, for now. In the long-run though, the unresolved issues between Fool and Fitz will rear its ugly head.

Don’t get me wrong. I want to see the Fool naked as much as I want to see my grandmother in the buff (ew). Which is never. I agree with you that a descriptive sex scene would be….weird to say the least, and cheapens their relationship within the dynamics of Hobb’s storytelling. Sex Hobb-style is always implicit never explicit. (This should not preclude fans from writing about it though. As far as private fantasies go, to each their own. )

After The Argument, the bedding issue has not been brought up again but has not been laid to rest either. On the contrary, I think F-F have a tacit understanding to avoid the issue. In addition, Molly’s and Bee’s recent deaths would dampen any libido. However, as time heals, the body always remembers its needs.

For every trilogy past, Fitz has sought physical comfort with a woman. In FQ, Fitz was comforted by KTK. Only grief drew the line between platonic and sexual. The Fool has physical needs too. In GF, he plainly told Fitz that yes, he wants to bed Fitz. He won’t force it, but he won’t deny his needs either. I think Amber appearing in the story will create tension between F-F and will force them to confront this bedding issue again.


message 21: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 07, 2015 03:49PM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Alfred wrote: "After The Argument, the bedding issue has not been brought up again but has not been laid to rest either. "
The Fool tells Fitz "I'm not your lover, either," at the end of FF. I think that since the Fool can't fulfill Fitz's need for a lover, he sends him off to Molly. As to what will happen now that Molly's gone, no clue. There's always ktk for Fitz. At that point, Hobb might as well nail the Fool to a cross and be done with it.

Which dragon donated blood for the Fool? Chade says the blood was meant for the duke of Chalced, so it must have been taken around the time of RW. The dragon is supposedly dead. Without giving spoilers for RW, I can't imagine a dead dragon that could have been tapped for blood, as living dragons immediately eat dead dragons for memories and meat. I can't imagine which living dragon it would be, either.

Elderlings resemble the dragons who form them. Fool has gold eyes and gold scales. Only gold-scaled, gold-eyed dragon in RW is Mercor. I don't see how he could be the one, but if he were, it'd be perfect. Mercor is something of a prophet himself, and he's marked with "false eyes," which is so very Fool. Also, he's the dragon most likely to forgive the Fool for drinking his blood. The rest would munch the Fool as an after dinner mint :/


message 22: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Ash09 wrote: "There's always ktk for Fitz. At that point, Hobb might as well nail the Fool to a cross and be done with it; Fitz can drink his friend's blood and eat his flesh and become a Fool-formed elderling. Happy ending!.."

That's morbid! I knew Fool was a prophet. Now he's a Messiah too?! A monk, a prophet and a saint. He's screwed.

You might be right on the money with Mercor. The golden likeness fits. And Mercor is the wisest and most "prophetic" of the lot (and the least self-serving, so I like him the most). The fact that Mercor wasn't in Kelsingra when F-F got there, is convenient too! So he can't "sniff" out his Elderling. Agree definitely not the dragons that died early. I am a little hazy on that chp, got to re-read and throw out more thoughts. In fact, I am even more hazy on RWC!


message 23: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 07, 2015 04:28PM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Alfred wrote: "Ash09 wrote: "There's always ktk for Fitz. At that point, Hobb might as well nail the Fool to a cross..."
I edited that bit out, as it was too morbid, as you say. These novels are so dark that your typical grimdark is a sunshiny day full of unicorns and buttercups and pretty, pretty daisies.

Re Mercor: I'm trying hard not to do spoilers here, but I can't imagine when/how his blood would have been taken?


message 24: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Ash09 wrote: "I edited that bit out, as it was too morbid, as you say. These novels are so..."

You didn't have to do that! I meant, that was morbidly funny!

Mercor, gosh, I can't even remember who his Elderling is. I don't recall if anyone even got close enough to draw blood... That aside, he does seem like a candidate though..


message 25: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Alfred wrote: "

Mercor, gosh, I can't even remember w..."


His elderling is Sylve. I just remembered that his eyes are black, not gold. Rest of him is gold, though. Hm. Tintaglia has golden eyes, I think, and she has some adventures that involve blood loss.


message 26: by Alfred (last edited Dec 07, 2015 05:47PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Oh, if Mercor already has an Elderling, can he "Elderlize" more than one human? What about Icefyre? He was black. Eyes color? Tintin has golden eyes? Hmm...


message 27: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 07, 2015 06:38PM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Doesn't Tintaglia elderize Malta, Reyn and Phron?

I'm totally off, Tintaglia has silver eyes. I wish someone had a list of dragons, with scale-eye colors.

It could also be the blood of an ancient dragon. I'll guess that dragon blood lasts forever.


message 28: by Alfred (last edited Dec 07, 2015 10:15PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Chp 34 - on topic of camps, this chapter has plenty! Fitz and boys camp out at the marketplace, the very same place F-F pitched tent. Like Scarletine noted, F-F have come full poetic circle. There is also Camp Juniors (Impressionistic & young - Per, Lant & Spark) v.s. Camp Seniors (Worldly & older - Fool & Fitz). Finally, Fool camps it up as Amber, complete with make-up, feminine gestures and buxomy clothing!

Emma Jane wrote: “So gay/straight, male/female, sexy times/celibate...seems to have nothing to do with their happiness.”

Actually, all these things have everything to do with their happiness. They must figure out if they can only be happy if they have answers to these things. More importantly, can they be happy in spite of not knowing these things? F-F avoid these questions like an elephant in the room. Fitz should take a page of his own advice to Per, “You’d need to ask Ash/Spark about that”.

Per had a friend in Ash. Now he has Spark. Fundamentally, the gender should change nothing about the friendship. Fundamentally, whether Fool is gay/straight, man/woman, indulging/abstaining should change nothing about Fool as a person. So these things should not matter, right? But it does to Fitz.

The sex does complicate matter. The truth is, it doesn’t really matter if F-F performed the actual Act. What matters is that Fitz can overcome his mental hurdle willingly and without reservations. If he can do that, then whether they actually do the Act or not is irrelevant.

He's getting there with the powerful "you are you" statement... But! We are getting ahead of ourselves. That’s book 3 material, hopefully.

Speaking of sex...(for those who might get offended, my comment in spoiler tag) (view spoiler)


message 29: by Emma (new)

Emma  | 92 comments Alfred wrote: "Chp 34 - on topic of camps, this chapter has plenty! Fitz and boys camp out at the marketplace, the very same place F-F pitched tent. Like Scarletine noted, F-F have come full poetic circle. There ..."

Oh my god xD I'll never read that in the same way again!


message 30: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 08, 2015 08:33AM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments ita on the importance of sexuality. Since it's there, since it strains their relationship, it needs to be resolved, and the resolution is up to Fitz.
Re gloves:
1. Fool's putting on the glove, not Fitz. This is a "male" thing to do.
2. ...but Fitz describes the glove as "feminine," and Fool's dressed as Amber.
3. Being a hopeful monster, Fool's brought many gloves with him. Fool's gone teen on us?


message 31: by Scarletine (last edited Dec 08, 2015 10:05AM) (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments Alfred wrote: "Don’t get me wrong. I want to see the Fool naked as much as I want to see my grandmother in the buff (ew). Which is never."

This made me laugh. I would have wanted to see fool naked, when he was Lord Golden- he was so Bowiesque with all of his silken Jamailian clothing and long golden hair...(swoon) But now he has been tortured , cut and broken...and who know's what is going down beneath the underwear! Poor fool. I love him, no matter how broken he is- and i want him to know sexual intimacy with Fitz, at least once.

And as for the 'glove of love' Bahahaha. Brilliant.
'Don't get that stuff on me '
'It burns so sweetly' :-)
I recall reading it as being saucy...Fool as Lord Golden always had a salacious quip to pull out when flirting with the gentry. It made me think of the old days.


message 32: by Alfred (last edited Dec 08, 2015 08:09PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Scarletine wrote: "And as for the 'glove of love'"

Haha I'm surprised no one has red-flagged my post yet. Pretty convinced Hobb wrote it tongue in cheek. It was quite a LOL moment thinking how life imitates art, comically reenacted by a nerve-wrecked Fitz and a very experienced Fool.

Saucy is a good word for Fool! I miss him like that! He has been so scared and paranoid. Then he puts on Amber, and voila! Out comes the sass. Who knows, maybe they'll pass through Jamaillia and Amber switches to Lord Golden. And when they finally reach Clerres, Beloved comes out! Bedding Fool would be like bedding 4 people. No wonder Fitz has a hard time being soft on FoolAmberGoldenBeloved.

Ash09 wrote:"1. Fool's putting on the glove, not Fitz. This is a "male" thing to do. 3. Fool's gone teen on us?"

Haha I'm pretty sure Fitz was holding it open for Fool who's blind, so that Fool can insert his hand in. He did bring many gloves! Practice makes perfect. I'm glad Hobb brought some levity into these late chps. The earlier 30+ chps have been depressing, heart-wrenching, mentally exhausting! Which I loved! But I'm ready for some circus act.

Speaking of which... Chp 35, the bear. Hmm.. (blank) Moving on. To more fearsome creatures, dragons! Hello, Kelsingra!


message 33: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments With apologies as I get obsessed by details. re chp 35, the Fool's dragon can't be any of those introduced in RW. S/he is one the Kelsingra dragons "believed dead," and "have not smelled before." It's one "unseen" by them.


message 34: by Alfred (last edited Dec 09, 2015 04:25AM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Ash09 wrote: "With apologies as I get obsessed by details. re chp 35, the Fool's dragon can't be any of those introduced in RW. S/he is one the Kelsingra dragons "believed dead," and "have not smelled before." I..."

Indulge your obsession here!

I think these references are for TWO dragons and TWO different people. "Dragon-touched" prob is Fool and "dragon-claimed" may refer to Fitz given the context of the paragraph.

Initially, I assumed the dragon smelled ONLY Amber/Fool. Fitz thought so too, "I guessed what he smelled. The dragon’s blood the Fool had used."

The dragon said “I smell him. I smell one dragon-touched, chosen by a dragon we have long believed dead. Are you here by his command?” I think this was in reference to Fool since his dragon blood was supposedly from a dead dragon.

And, he also said “One of them is dragon-claimed. I smell it on him.” “A dragon I have not smelled before,” he said, as if dredging his memory for a name. “A dragon unseen by us. Does he live yet?” This I think was in reference to Fitz.

Since the dragon referred to the person as "he/him", that rules out Spark. It referred to the dead dragon as a "he" so that rules out all the female dragons. It said it was not a dragon he's smelled before, so that rules out all the dragons born this generation at Rain Wilds. Lant and Per have no past or present dragon business. Spark is out. So maybe - Fitz.

Wasn't Fitz's ancestor dragon-touched or something? Maybe Fitz retained some essence of Verity? There's also my wild theory of Realder is Fitz.


message 35: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 09, 2015 08:58AM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Realdar as a previous Fitz life isn't wild at all; Realdar's the Catalyst to a previous Fool-wp. He's Fitz. Sort of.

Re two people being dragon-touched--definitely possible, but neither person could be associated with a dragon from the RW generation, as one is chosen by a dragon "long believed dead," and the other is claimed by a dragon "unseen by us." Fool's dragon blood came from before the fall of the duke of Chalced, and again, that would mean it couldn't come from any named dragon from RW generation. Even Gresok, the dimwitted dragon who goes off on his own, is found and eaten by Kalo and Ranculos.

Lant is getting better and better. When the Fitz decides to take on the bear to save Bee's journal, Lant channels Chade: "Try to follow the advice you gave your stable boy. Don't give up your life for a thing, no matter how precious."


message 36: by Alfred (last edited Dec 09, 2015 09:06AM) (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments My gut says the same - Not the RWC Dragons. However I won't rule out RWC Dragons completely because it's been 25 years since they were born. Is that considered "long ago" in dragon years? Don't know.

Also many of the RWC Dragons are currently not in Kelsingra. We don't know how long they've been gone or if any have died over the last 25 years. I don't have the book here but it seems like only the green and red Dragons are around in Kelsingra presently. Baliper is off eating livestock in 6 duchies. The rest are all unaccounted for.

The other possibility is Icefyre. It's not explained if he ever visited Kelsingra or if any of the RWC Dragons have ever met him. If they don't know Icefyre so he can qualify as "unseen" and "not smelled before" as well. We assume they have met TinTin since she was instrumental in their hatching. So we can rule TinTin out. Plus she is a girl.

Don't remember much of RWC so speaking off the cuff here. Somewhere in chp 35, Fitz thought about TinTin and Icefyre. How Icefyre had "touched mind" with Fitz. I wonder if there is a reason Hobb mentioned that.

My personal inclination is - NONE of the above! I like to think that this "unseen" dragon is from the ancient past who had claimed Fitz in past life. After all, Fool dreamt of Fitz and him in Kelsingra walking and laughing long, long ago (in their past life persona?). So maybe Fitz was "claimed" by an ancient dragon then. (Realder!). Plus who said it has to be a LIVE dragon? A dragon carved by coterie is also a dragon.

Also, in FF, when Fitz met Icefyre for the first time (or was it TinTin?), Icefyre (or TinTin) asked Fitz - what is he? That he was puzzling.

I don't have the books at work so can't refer accurately. And rambling a mile a min!


message 37: by luisi (last edited Dec 09, 2015 09:46AM) (new)

luisi (azurenight) | 125 comments We also have to remember that RH uses masculine pronouns as neutral ones so the dragons using "he" might not mean anything. I do think that the dragon whose blood the Fool drank is male since he dreamt about fighting for a mate and winning (or do female dragons fight each other for a mate?). Fitz's dragon might be the being (if she's a dragon) he kept encountering in the pillar since she practically has to rebuild him, which might mean then that Dutiful is dragon touched as well.

Or maybe it's some kind of ancestor thing. Or Verity thing. Or maybe even Girl-on-a-Dragon thing.


message 38: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Alfred wrote: "However I won't rule out RWC Dragons completely because it's been 25 years since they were born. Is that considered "long ago" in dragon years? "

I'd rule them out for the Fool, as Chade said that the blood the Fool ingested was supposed to go to the Duke of Chalced. That blood must have been gathered before the fall of the duke, which happened before the end of RW. I'd rule it out for Fitz, as well. I'd rule out both Tintaglia and Icefyre, as the dragons are aware of them. I'm thinking you're right, that it's an ancient dragon for both.

Re coterie dragons: Would the RW dragons consider a stone dragon a "real" dragon? Dragons are obnoxious beings with a superiority complex. I think they'd only accept a flesh and blood dragon as real.


message 39: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments Ash09 wrote: "Alfred wrote: "However I won't rule out RWC Dragons completely because it's been 25 years since they were born. Is that considered "long ago" in dragon years? "

I'd rule them out for the Fool, as ..."


I wouldn't rule out Tintaglia and Icefyre. Tintin was infiltrating Fitzy's ( and nettle's)mind long before they ever met. He was chosen by her specifically! And Fitz physically touched Icefyre ( when he crawled into the tunnel under the dragon popsicle and tried to remove a dragon scale) and had a mind meeting with him too(which nearly killed him) These two dragons are intimately entwined in F/F's story. Everything they have been through in the first six books was to bring Icefyre and TinTin together and bring dragon's back to the world. I can't believe that it was for nothing...or that they would not favour F/F for their help.


message 40: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 09, 2015 11:26AM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Scarletine wrote: "I wouldn't rule out Tintaglia and Icefyre. "

I'd rule them out just because of what the green and red dragons say in chapter 35. F&F's dragons are "long believed dead," "unseen by us," dragons they "have not smelled before." The RW dragons have seen and smelled both Icefyre and Tintaglia. idk if Icefyre is alive, but Tintaglia was, only five years ago.

On the other hand, why did the Fool die to bring back Icefyre? The RW dragons grow and mature independently of Icefyre, so dragons were always coming back, even without Icefyre. Fool isn't making sense!


message 41: by luisi (new)

luisi (azurenight) | 125 comments Actually, Malta seems to thinks that TinTin was the one who changed Amber. Or at least that's what I got from rereading.

Alfred wrote: "Luisi, does RH really use masculine pronouns as neutral ones? Not sure if that's a general application or just specific to certain cultures. Maybe in Clerres? (Definitely Turkish if I remember Ash09 correctly!) "

It was on a fb post last year(?) how masculine pronouns are considered the "neutral" (e.x mankind) and how she hates using singular they, which is why she always refers to the Fool as a he even though she never confirms his gender. I remembered a few fans were a bit irritated since it seemed so old fashioned.


message 42: by Ash09 (last edited Dec 09, 2015 04:52PM) (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments luisi wrote: "how masculine pronouns are considered the "neutral" (e.x mankind) and how she hates using singular they, which is why she always refers to the Fool as a he even though she never confirms his gender. "

The Fool/LG/Beloved are always seen from Fitz's pov, and, in Fitz's pov, these characters are always male. There is no way on earth that someone like Fitz would ever go "they" or "she" to describe the person he thinks of as his best male buddy. It would violate Fitz's character.

When the Fool is presenting as female in Liveship, Hobb goes "she."

Anyhow, I think that Fitz would use "he" upon seeing a strange dragon...unless, of course, Fitz's Wit/Skill make it possible for him to "sex" the dragon on sight. In that case, "he" might be more than neutral; the dragon might be a drake.


message 43: by luisi (new)

luisi (azurenight) | 125 comments I meant more rl about her not using "they". I honestly don't care since I don't use "they" to refer to the Fool, but some people do. What was interesting about her fb post is that it gave us some insight in how she uses pronouns, so when she uses a male pronoun to refer to a unknown/mysterious character, it doesn't necessarily mean that the character is male.

I think I might have lost my original train of thought.


message 44: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments luisi wrote: "We also have to remember that RH uses masculine pronouns as neutral ones so the dragons using "he" might not mean anything."

Time Magazine named Angela Merkel “Person of the Year”. It used to be “Man of the Year" but "Man" was replaced with "Person" to be gender-neutral. I think “Man” is inclusive of both genders, but historically in a patriarchal and male-dominant society, the default reference was "man" and default pronoun "he".

Thankfully, society has evolved. We now say business person not businessman, firefighter not fireman etc. Gender-neutral language is prevalent in legal documents, as well as many professional and fact-based literature.

Fantasy writing though, may be more flexible with political correctness. Whatever works for how the story flows. Maybe when Hobb uses "he" to describe Fool, it literally is because Fool is a male. Or, maybe Hobb uses "he" as a default pronoun to describe anything that is vague and obviously not a "she", "it" or "they". Or, maybe typing "he" is just a whole lot easier than tediously typing "the person" for the sake of being gender-neutral.

Imagine re-wording this. “I smell The Person. Are you here by The Person's command?” "Does The Person live yet?" Don’t quite have the same bite.

Coming back to original train of thought - we should consider this from the character's POV. Fitz always refers to Fool as "he" and Amber as "she". He's clearly differentiating Fool and Amber from a gender standpoint. Whatever Fitz's POV heard in Dragon Speak, Fitz has interpreted the pronoun into a "he". Given how simplistic Fitz is, I betcha “he” really means “he”.


message 45: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Luisi, sorry if my post came across heavy handed... ? (Was it?) Which wasn't the intent honestly. Just smack me in the head. That will get the message across.

Junie: consider that Luisi is fully capable of karate-chopping anyone who tries to beat her up.


message 46: by Ash09 (new)

Ash09 | 404 comments Junie wrote: "But kinda feel you are beating up Luisi for sharing something she saw on FB"

oh dear I didn't mean to be rude!!! With apologies to you and Luisi.

Also, I was, as usual, being dense. I thought the subject was "he" in the novels, re Fool and dragon, not "he" in Hobb's FB. imo "he or she, etc." is awkward. The language might move toward "they," but it's still unusual to hear it as referring to an individual. As yet no perfect solution.


message 47: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments This little ragtag group is becoming quite a team. Someone shouted, ”’Ware!” thus warning Fitz of danger. I think this was Motley, as she used the same word to warn Fitz in the Chalcedean hunt. Fitz’s inner beast rises to meet the dragon head-on with, ”That was the challenge I flung at him, my defiance, an animal-to-animal declaration”. Thus giving Per precious seconds to hide Amber and Spark under the butterfly cloak. Then, the three musketeers stood side by side to face the dragon. Bravo!

One might even think they will make a fine coterie… Hmm. If they do become a coterie, then a carved something is definitely in the works..?!


message 48: by Scarletine (new)

Scarletine | 469 comments I agree that everything is written from Fitzy's POV , therefore 'He' is for identifying someone Fitz sees as male, and 'She', is deffo female.

I really don't think that the pronouns need to be looked at in any greater depth than that. Political correctness grinds my gears in my RL, i don't want it to leak into my fantasy life too!

(On a side note. Have any of you read The Dragonbone Chair by Tad Williams? It was released 7 years before Hobb's first book...and there are several MAJOR similarities between them.)


message 49: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo (alfredhaplo) | 550 comments Scarletine wrote: "Have any of you read The Dragonbone Chair by Tad Williams? It was released 7 years before Hobb's first book...and there are several MAJOR similarities between them.).."

Oh? Is it good coz now I have to go read this too. I trust your recommendations. Thanks also for pointing me to Gentleman Bastards, really good! Too bad, more waiting for rest of books!


message 50: by luisi (new)

luisi (azurenight) | 125 comments I remember now, Alfred was discounting TinTin because she's a girl (well, mainly because of other things), but just because dragons used "he" doesn't mean the dragon has to be male since "he" can be gender neutral. I just felt a bit frustrated that I couldn't get my point across. It also got me thinking if dragons perceive gender like humans do since back in TLT Ophelia figures out that Althea is female right away (although Althea makes a terrible boy), but Paragon always sees Amber as female without any doubt.

Moving on. So Fitz is having issues with the skill pillars, which I thought was because of his skill, but the Fool's arrival was delayed as well, so I guess the skill pillars just needs maintenance. It's been talked about before, but the manuscript wasn't complete so probably no one knows what to do about it.

Not really appropriate since it's a different genre, but I was reading a short mm romance and the main characters reminded me so much of F/F; one of them was even a bit gender fluid.


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