One Year In Search of Lost Time ~ 2015 discussion

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Sodom and Gomorrah > Week VIII ~ August 29th

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message 1: by Teresa (new)

Teresa "The benefit that I derived from it, at least, was no longer to see things except from the practical point of view. Marriage with Albertine struck me as foolish"(End of Sodom and Gomorrah).


message 2: by Teresa (new)

Teresa Does anyone's edition have a note about:

"... while, to take a simile infinitely less sacrilegious than the subject represented on the capitals of the porch of the old church of Corleville"?

It's at the 90% mark.


message 3: by Simon (new)

Simon (sorcerer88) | 176 comments My edition doesn't have a note about that passage, which in my Penguin edition reads:
"and, to choose a comparison infinitely less sacrilegious than the subject portrayed on the capitals in the porch of the old church in Couliville,"

I haven't started on this last part of the book yet, so i can't comment any more yet.


message 4: by Teresa (new)

Teresa Simon wrote: "My edition doesn't have a note about that passage, which in my Penguin edition reads:
"and, to choose a comparison infinitely less sacrilegious than the subject portrayed on the capitals in the por..."


Thanks, Simon. I understand what the whole sentence means, I was really just wondering if I'd miss a prior reference to the architecture of this particular church. If my Googling is correct, though, I haven't.


message 5: by Teresa (last edited Aug 23, 2015 08:15PM) (new)

Teresa Teresa wrote: ""The benefit that I derived from it, at least, was no longer to see things except from the practical point of view. Marriage with Albertine struck me as foolish"(End of Sodom and Gomorrah)."

In the Moncrieff, this isn't the end, but the 96% mark with a Chapter 4 following. I'm guessing that chapter will start off the next volume and I'll wait to read it.


message 6: by Jacob (new)

Jacob (jacobvictorfisher) | 112 comments That's really interesting. I didn't read the introduction to this volume this time around so if it was mentioned in there I've forgotten. Now that I think about it I vaguely remember reading something about a disagreement that Prendergast (or Kilmartin or Enright) had with an earlier translation regarding the appropriate division point between some of the volumes. Fortunately since we haven't been getting into the scholarly issues it doesn't make too much of a difference for us.

Well, I suppose this will make the next volume's % estimates even less accurate in the Moncrieff. Hopefully if they're off by some percentage it will be consistent. It's been easy for me since I read exactly 60 pages a week in my edition (with some exceptions when there's a section or volume end coming up). It makes me wonder how easy it's been to keep track of the weekly readings.


message 7: by Teresa (new)

Teresa Jacob wrote: "Now that I think about it I vaguely remember reading something about a disagreement that Prendergast (or Kilmartin or Enright) had with an earlier translation regarding the appropriate division point between some of the volumes."

It is curious, though I agree it doesn't make much of a difference.

I haven't had any issues keeping track and I haven't been paying too much attention to the percentages anyway, just waiting for the sentence that ends each week in your schedule. And this week's was easily noticed.


message 8: by Sue (new)

Sue | 67 comments I didn't realize that I hadn't checked to follow the discussion on this section or I would have noticed earlier the discrepancy of the endings. Well now I'm a wee bit ahead for the next book :)


message 9: by Teresa (last edited Aug 27, 2015 07:47PM) (new)

Teresa Sue wrote: "Well now I'm a wee bit ahead for the next book :)"

A very good place to be. ;)


message 10: by Sue (new)

Sue | 67 comments Indeed! And my next book has come and I'm all set to go. My edition has The Prisoner and The Fugitive in the same book.


message 11: by Simon (last edited Aug 30, 2015 11:24AM) (new)

Simon (sorcerer88) | 176 comments I read this last part rather impatiently again, as I thought I could finish it much quicker and wanted to finish it in a single session. The part felt much longer than expected. I think i set myself up for this once before in this volume. In any case, i did finish this in a single uninterupted session today in about four hours, and I enjoyed it a lot!

So Teresa, you stopped at "Marriage with Albertine struck me as foolish"? Well, that would make discussion of the end of this volume awkward between your experience and the one with the Penguin/Prendergast volumes, and to explain that would be of course a spoiler for you :D

I noticed a fun wordplay though. Morel's first name is "Charlie", which can be combined from "Charlus" and "cherie", or "Charlus' cherie". Elsewhere it's also implied that Morel were a "young lady".

The narrator mentions a different wordplay, which i didn't quite get. What is the scene of their first rendezvous?

Having remarked that Morel’s first name was Charles, which resembled Charlus, and that the property where they used to meet was called Les Charmes, he sought to persuade Morel that, a pretty name agreeable to pronounce being one half of an artistic reputation, the virtuoso should not hesitate to take the name of ‘Charmel’, a discreet allusion to the scene of their rendezvous.

Proust, Marcel (2003-10-02). In Search of Lost Time: Sodom and Gomorrah: Sodom and Gomorrah Vol 4 (p. 455). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.



message 12: by Teresa (last edited Aug 30, 2015 11:32AM) (new)

Teresa Simon wrote: "So Teresa, you stopped at "Marriage with Albertine struck me as foolish"? Well, that would make discussion of the end of this volume awkward between your experience and the one with the Penguin/Prendergast volumes, and to explain that would be of course a spoiler for you :D"

Yes, I did, because that's what Jacob's schedule called for. :) But then a couple days later I read the rest of my volume, which I'm guessing is the start of the next Sturrock-translated volume, so I understand what you are referring to. ;) But, seriously, I wouldn't have found it much of a spoiler, but rather typical of our narrator.


message 13: by Teresa (new)

Teresa Simon wrote: "The narrator mentions a different wordplay, which i didn't quite get. What is the scene of their first rendezvous?"

I don't know if Les Charmes was the scene of their first rendezvous, but I took Charmel to be a made-up word using the beginning of Charmes and the ending of Morel.


message 14: by Simon (new)

Simon (sorcerer88) | 176 comments Ah, makes sense, I didn't even see Charmel as Chalus + Morel for some reason (i guess because i have been focused on the different pattern of Charlus + cherie).

So, you read about Marcel's sudden jealousy over Albertine and Vinteuille's daughter? I found it a very strong, surprising effect that this made Marcel go from wanting to break up with Albertine to wanting to marry her. At least that's what he tells his mother and wants at that moment. But we know how changeable Marcel is in his desires, and how much jealousy renews his love (which is supposed to be a general human characteristic to some degree, and i don't disagree with that).


message 15: by Sue (new)

Sue | 67 comments Our narrator/Marcel is nothing if not changeable!


message 16: by Simon (new)

Simon (sorcerer88) | 176 comments Though aren't we all a bit changable in our plans and desires, and prone to jealousy? Read an old diary entry or think back to what you wanted some weeks or years ago, and often it's quite different to your current self. At least for me.


message 17: by Teresa (new)

Teresa Simon wrote: "So, you read about Marcel's sudden ..."

Yes, though what made it powerful for me was that it immediately evoked the scene from the first novel when the narrator, as a boy, sees through a window Mlle Vinteuil with her friend, a scene which almost seemed out of place in that novel, but has set us up for this.


message 18: by Sue (new)

Sue | 67 comments I agree we are all changeable, perhaps especially in matters of the heart ...as he would lovingly say, but he seems to have not really been serious to begin with about Albertine, and then to bring her home. It's a bit fantastic and just begs for change.


message 19: by Judy (new)

Judy (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejudyg) | 60 comments Just finished this volume, so I have almost caught up with the group! It seems as if he keeps deceiving himself about his feelings for Albertine - there are a few places where he mentions in brackets that he was planning to break up with her, but then the story immediately goes on with their relationship continuing.

Interesting about the different editions/translators choosing different places to end this volume. I'm reading MKE so had the extra chapter, which has left me wanting to read on.

The way some of the society people enjoy making mocking double entendres to Charlus gets very annoying - a joke that wasn't funny in the first place and which they just can't stop repeating. It does give a feeling of the level of prejudice. Odd that Marcel as narrator doesn't seem to share in the prejudice against gay male relationships, but is so horrified by female ones, though of course his jealousy is a strong factor here.

The portrayal of Charlus' relationship with Morel is powerful and very like Swann's love for Odette and Robert's for Rachel. It seems as if these relationships built on one-sided love and money keep being repeated and shown from different angles.


message 20: by Teresa (new)

Teresa Judy wrote: "Odd that Marcel as narrator doesn't seem to share in the prejudice against gay male relationships, but is so horrified by female ones, though of course his jealousy is a strong factor here.

The portrayal of Charlus' relationship with Morel is powerful and very like Swann's love for Odette and Robert's for Rachel. It seems as if these relationships built on one-sided love and money keep being repeated and shown from different angles."


I keep thinking this is not love the narrator feels for Albertine, but sexual jealousy. Perhaps that is the true also for what Swann felt for Odette.

And I'm guessing the narrator/Albertine relationship will also be added to this list.


message 21: by Sue (new)

Sue | 67 comments Teresa wrote: "Judy wrote: "Odd that Marcel as narrator doesn't seem to share in the prejudice against gay male relationships, but is so horrified by female ones, though of course his jealousy is a strong factor ..."

It does seem more like that to me too, Teresa. Does our narrator actually demonstrate love for anyone other than his mother and grandmother?


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