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A Game of Thrones > 08/20/15 - Chapter 33: Eddard VIII

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Clara I can't comment today because I have an exam tomorrow, and I'll be back home late as well, so I'll comment later on today and tomorrow's chapters. But I did read this one, and I have a lot to say!

Clara . This is one of the chapter I most enjoyed reading (the first time and this one) because I believe, seeing this situation from an objective point, that nobody is wrong in what they are saying and what they think it's the best thing to do. Despite of why I would do in a situation like that, I don't think nobody is wrong, or more evil than the next person because of what they believe. And I think it's wonderful, and don't really remember reading something similar in another book. Maybe the only one who doesn't have a strong point is Robert, who wants to see all Targaryens dead just because he hates them.

. So, the small council is discussing what to do with Daenerys now that she is pregnant. Of course Ned believes they should do nothing, because Robert wants to murder a child, which is horrible. Robert, who wants to see every Targaryen dead, does not care about what Ned has to say, but instead wants her, her child and Vyseris dead. He says " I am not so blind that I cannot see the shadow of the axe when it is hanging over my own neck.”

. Ned tries to calm Robert down telling him maybe she will miscarry, or have a girl. And Robert asks, but why if she has a boy? I believe he is thinking they will go to war again, if she has a boy and lives. But it makes me think he just doesn't want any more living Targaryens in the world.

. Renly said they should have killed Daenerys and Vyseris when they had the chance, and Ned replies they let Ser Barristan lived. Letting the children and Barristan live was a mercy, and I don't think it was wrong in any case.

. Ned is saying a bit to much, telling Robert he is afraid of a baby who isn't even born, and the years had unmanned him. And of course, Robert is not happy with that choice of words. But I don't believe things would have been different if Ned talked less or said something else.

. Ser Barristan doesn't want to order Daenerys death, but Varys thinks it has to be done, sadly. Maester Pycelle thinks what will happen if there is a war, and says: "Should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?” “Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?” I would like to point out again, from an objective point and not taking note of my feelings towards Daenerys, that he is right. It is a kindness to the many lives that would be lost at war, to lose two now instead. It is not a kindness to the two lives, but who would rather lost ten thousand over two?

. Littlefinger also thinks they should send an assasin, think they should give her a "steel kiss".

. Renly suggest Jorah for the job, but Varys replies he wouldn't do it. And he says they could use the tears of Lys, the poison it was used to kill Jon Arryn according to what Varys told Ned previously. I wonder why he suggested it.

. Robert thinks it's a cowards weapon, and Ned lost it because the king is talking about honor while debating how to kill a child. I think this speaks a lot for both characters.

. I think Roberts obsession with murdering Targaryens and the fact that Ned attacked his honor and question his judgment that much, made the king screamed and talked like that to Eddard.

. I forgot the Faceless Men were named here, and by Maester Pycelle. Also, they seemed to charge an absurd amount of money to kill people.

. Ned thinks he could stop by and talk to Stannis, whom he sent a polite letter and asked him to return and be a part of the small counsil again. He knows Stannis knows the secret Jon Arryn died for, and he is scared of what that might be.

. Also, he starts to doubt whether Robert had something to do with Bran's attempt of murder, since he seems to have no problem with the murdering of children. Which is sad, they used to be best friends and now he is learning Robert is not who he used to be.

. So Littlefinger, who has such a big heart, conviced the small council not to hire the Faceless Men, who will surely killed her, but instead it was agreed Varys will quietly let it be known that the person who kill Daenerys will have a lordship. I never liked Littlefinger, but this chapter made me like him so much less.

. He knows Ned is leaving as soon as possible, but he says he can take him to that brothel he's been searching for. Why does he want Ned to stay?

Vicki Kalb | 310 comments I think Varys brings up the tears of Lys to see what everyone's reaction to it will be. Grand Maester Pycelle makes a reaction of surprise and suspicion, but that's about it, I think. Varys never makes a mistake in anything he says. He said it on purpose, definitely.

I agree, I think the political and ethical dilemma they are talking about is very intriguing. I can definitely see and respect Pycelle's explanation, and I think Varys is only pretending to be for Dany's death in order to stay in good graces with Robert and the majority who think Dany should die, and I respect Ser Barristan for agreeing with Ned, the losing side of the argument. But it's very hard for me to look objectively at Robert's point of view. He is motivated by raw hatred of Rhaegar and a wrong that was done to him 15 years ago. Now he wants all the Targaryens to go extinct because of it, and I think that is grossly unfair. It is also very sad to imagine that tens of thousands of people will fight to the death to prevent a 14-year-old girl to sit the Iron Throne, whose seat is her birthright. They don't know anything about her, but I'm sure a lot of people in that room might agree she can't be any worse than the way Robert rules... I really like when Ned insists Robert kill her personally. Because if he cannot bear to do it himself then perhaps she doesn't deserve to die. But Robert doesn't want to hear this. He is blinded by the past. Very sad. He should not be king.

1. Ned and Robert are arguing about killing Dany again. I really commend Ned for sticking up for a girl he's never met before *SPECULATION ON DAENERYS'S BIRTHRIGHT* (view spoiler) *SPOILER FOR A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE* (view spoiler) And perhaps this screams in Ned's face that his best friend is indeed a usurper. An honorable man would have ruled as regent until young Aegon comes of age, but since he was killed, have Gregor arrested, take off Jaime's kingsguard robes and take him to the Wall for killing the king to show the realm that regicide is still wrong no matter how terrible the king is, and rule until Viserys comes of age -- of which they probably still would be SOL, lol. Instead, what does Robert do? He takes the crown, rewards the criminals, and threatnes to kill the rightful heirs, when he knows his own son would make a horrible king! What a hypocrite.

2. Lol at Robert saying he isn't so blind that he cannot see the shadow of the axe hanging over his neck... He's thinking the Targaryens are the axe, but it's a lot closer than that...

3. I like that Ned said that "Even Aegon did no conquering until after he was weaned."

4. Herein lies the dilemmas of politics -- what is right and what is good for the realm. Though I wonder what it says about a king who kills children to keep the land "safe?"

5. Another reason I love Ned: "Mercy is never a mistake." He brings up Robert pardoning Ser Barriston Selmy, who had actually fought for the Targaryens. He glares at Robert, "Would that man were here today." I'm glad at least Robert blushed shamefully at this.

6. Love this, but it is so ballsy: "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"

7. I'm glad at least Barriston Selmy agrees with Ned. :) He is not afraid to go with what he thinks is right, even if no one else in the room agrees with them. And I think Varys is only pretending to be for Dany's murder to stay in Robert's good graces.

8. Here I think Pycelle makes a valid point -- kill Dany to save tens of thousands from war...this situation is very complicated...but I would personally go with mercy here. To me, it would make Robert look like a good king, and Robert has even said once he doesn't deserve to be king! He just can't get over the past. A wiser man would step down to let the rightful ruler be king, a better ruler. Robert sucks at being a king, lol.

9. Littlefinger's answer is crass and stupid, to me. Using this situation with an analogy of fucking an ugly whore...wtf Littlefinger. Unfortunately, he's speaking Robert's language, which is bullshit. These men should not be in power; all they care about is gold, wine, blood on their swords and women around their cocks. What do they care about a realm, really?

10. I wonder why Varys brings up the tears of Lys in front of Grand Maester Pycelle -- which gets his attention. He looks at him suspiciously. Maybe that's his intent, to find out who will react and in what way.

11. Ned tells the truth: "You send hired knives to kill a 14-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" Ha! So true...Robert is a hypocrite in every way. Ned once again implores him to at least kill her himself.

12. Ha! "Defiance was not a dish he tasted often." Finally! Someone who will have the guts to defy the king! The man needs it. He can't always get what he wants, that's not how ruling works... You have to be able to take criticism, take council. Consider every angle. Think about what's better for the realm, not you.

13. I hate when anyone makes empty threats, and for a king to threaten his own friend with his life... that's low. You need to be careful what you say, especially when you are king. Does anyone remember the story of Archbishop Thomas Becket of Canterbury and King Henry II of England? The two were best friends but had a quarrel about church and state. When Thomas Becket left to go back home, the king blabbered on about who would rid him of this meddling priest. His guards took him seriously, rode out to Canterbury and murdered Thomas Becket right in the church. When the king heard about it he was so upset he had himself publicly humiliated to cleanse himself of his guilt. This kind of reminds me of this story. I actually suck at history, but this part stuck with me. :)

14. Didn't realize hiring a Faceless Man would be so incredibly expensive. That's disconcerting to know a Faceless Man will kill anyone if paid handsomly enough...and the Lannisters are the richest family in Westeros, too. :(

15. Even though Ned doesn't believe Robert would actually kill him, it's still not right, and it's true: Robert still hates Rhaegar, even 15 years later. He can't let go of the past.

16. I like this part: "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

17. Ned doesn't know Robert anymore; doesn't know what he's capable of.

18. Oh no, not Littlefinger...but he comes to say they've chosen a cheaper route: offer a lordship to whoever kills her. He says if the Faceless Men did it she'd certainly be dead; this way she still has a chance. Very true. Plus, it's cheaper this way, lol.

19. Now Littlefinger knows how to keep Ned from leaving...has decided to give him information on a brothel Jory'd been searching for. Ugh. Doesn't Littlefinger own all the brothels in King's Landing? Maybe that was in the show. I think he's holding information over Ned's head to use whenever it serves him, ugh. Ned was so close to going home too! The feels...

Clara It is such a great chapter, I also think Robert just wants to slain all Targaryens left, and doesn't care about anything else. He is not a good king at all. I haven't read the theory you made in your first point, but like you I also don't find it to be sustainable. And I don't belive Robert and Cersei were married at that point, or were they? I thought they got married after the fight was finished.
Varys is so...unreadable I guess. You never know what's he playing. Now that you said so, I think he brought up the subject of the tears os Lys to see their reaction.
I have no idea what you said in point 13 happened. It's so sad too!

Vicki Kalb | 310 comments I only remembered that part of history because it's what makes Canterbury so special. It's the reason why Geoffrey Chaucer wrote the Canterbury Tales, because all of his characters were on their pilgrimage to do Saint Thomas Becket and the church a visit.

Robert and Cersei got married after the war and all this happened, yes. I think Robert was thinking that if he could fight to rescue Lyanna he would marry her and she would be his queen, but since she died, Jon Arryn urged him to marry someone else and suggested Cersei to honor Tywin Lannister.

Clara Well, I found it very interesting! I'll check out more about it.

Oh, I thought so! I got a little confused by what you wrote, and I thought you were saying they got married before, my bad!

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