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THE SEVENTH FLOOR > Down The Barrel: Bloody Mayhem: On Killing: Post any research questions on guns, bombs and what not here.

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message 1: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
(From a post I made on another group. Thanks to group member Felix for inspiring this discussion thread)

Whether you're liquidating an enemy of the state in the alleys of continental Europe or duking it out with Islamic terrorists in the hills of Afghanistan, characters in the paramilitary side of spy fiction will always bring along a handgun of some kind along.

So, come, share with us your favorite pistols that have featured in a spy thriller novel/TV show/film series and tell us why they're the best.

Or tell us the worst handguns that you've seen in spy fiction and the reasons why they were unsuitable.


message 2: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
The Third Option by Vince Flynn

I'll start.
Noted Glock enthusiast Mitch Rapp in his early days used other pistols to do his job as a government assassin. One of them was the excellent Ruger MK2, one of the finest .22LR automatics ever made. His one was no frills, not even having one of those integrated suppressors, but it did the job well.


message 3: by Feliks (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) Fun posts Samuel; glad you're doing some follow-ups and thx for the nod.

I'm not actually very familiar with handguns; and I can't name any of my fave books which feature them in any inordinate way.

But I am miffed by the target pistol 'accident' which became a brief 'tradition' in the Bond movie posters. Terrible. Seems like they could have caught that gaffe and halted it at the time.

Personal distaste also for anything which is overly-ornate such as 'pearl handled' firearms or other fancy stuff like that.

I much more appreciate whenever a book/movie features use of the rifle. 'The Upper Crust' (movie) has an assassin who perversely insists on using a Winchester repeater of some kind. His signature. Do they still make them? Would a modern-day rancher carry one? How accurate were/are they, compared to the more modern high-powered stuff?


message 4: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "Fun posts Samuel; glad you're doing some follow-ups and thx for the nod.

I'm not actually very familiar with handguns; and I can't name any of my fave books which feature them in any inordinate wa..."


Schedule error with prop department. PPK wasn't available. Pity. I concur with garish custom firearms. You should see the M1911A1's some of the members of the Mexican drug cartels usually purchase. Simply vulgar.
Lever action rifles are still around. A company called Savage arms is one of the main producers of them.
As for accuracy, I can't say. All depends of the ammo and rifling I suppose.


message 5: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
24 Deadline by James Swallow
Jack Bauer. He's to Heckler and Koch in the same way 007 is the poster boy for Walther arms.
Having fired the full sized version of his Heckler and Koch USP (he used the compact model), it's one of my favorites. Accurate, supremely reliable and the well designed trigger combined with a recoil reduction system allows one to lay down multiple double taps rapidly.


message 6: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
The Hunter (Victor the Assassin, #1) by Tom Wood
The Enemy (Victor the Assassin, #2) by Tom Wood
The Game (Victor the Assassin, #3) by Tom Wood

From a technical standpoint, the FN 57 is one of the greats and is the weapon of choice for "Victor", an amoral contract killer who is the main character of these three books.
Light, yet with a high 20 round capacity, the low caliber allows it to be used in a covert manner when fitted with a suppressor. It's the perfect balance between stealth and aggression. Enough bullets to last in a gunfight compared to a normal .22LR handgun like the Ruger MK2 but with the perfect caliber for discrete killing. Lack of stopping power isn't a concern for Victor who prefers to take his enemies by surprise whenever possible.


message 7: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 167 comments Samuel wrote: "The Hunter (Victor the Assassin, #1) by Tom Wood
The Enemy (Victor the Assassin, #2) by Tom Wood
The Game (Victor the Assassin, #3) by Tom Wood

From a technical standpoint, the FN 57 is one of the greats and is the weapon of choice for "Victor"..."


One thing to note about the FN Five-Seven: its 5.7mm round is a high velocity bullet that can penetrate flexible body armor at combat range. It may not punch you back like a .45 caliber bullet, but it will drill through you and your body armor vest without problem. It thus is an excellent weapon against people expected to wear body armor (bodyguards, soldiers, policemen, etc).

For me, the worst example of a handgun in a spy thriller is the stupid, clunky golden pistol used by Skaramanga in 'THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN'. If the main reason for owning such a piece is simply that it is easy and quick to disassemble and hide, then there are plenty more models of concealable handguns with better ergonomy and bigger firepower (compact models of the GLOCK pistols, for starters). A good example of a purpose-designed handgun for an assassin was the ceramic pistol used by John Malkovich as a man who wanted to kill the President of the United States in a movie featuring Clint Eastwood as an aging Secret Service agent (damn memory: can't remember the title of the movie!).


message 8: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Michel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "The Hunter (Victor the Assassin, #1) by Tom Wood
The Enemy (Victor the Assassin, #2) by Tom Wood
The Game (Victor the Assassin, #3) by Tom Wood

From a technical standpoint, the FN 57 is one of the greats and is the weapon of cho..."


Good point. It just so happens that Victor does get his hands on the L.E rounds which can shred kevlar due to his current handler being the number two man at the CIA NCS.

Totally agree about The Golden Gun especially how weapons like the "baby Glock" handguns are more practical. Great example was in the Tv show "24". Day 5 had a hitman armed with a suppressed Glock 26 which had been disassembled and scattered into a custom tool box waltz into the CTU offices. Almost managed to take out Jack Bauer with it as well


message 9: by Feliks (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) Agreed about TMWTGG. Always hated that stupid looking weapon. It looked like it was designed by Seiko.


message 10: by Feliks (last edited Aug 15, 2015 05:10PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) p.s Eastwood kicked Commie azz BUTT GOOD in 'Firefox' and he 'iced' (ha ha) a bunch of guys too in 'Eiger Sanction' so I'm alright with his killcount..


message 11: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Another one. From the spy/science fiction show Person Of Interest. One of the protagonists utilizes Beretta's answer to the "baby Glock" as her sidearm. Usually fits it with a under barrel laser aiming module. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta...


message 12: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Samuel wrote: "Another one. From the spy/science fiction show Person Of Interest. One of the protagonists utilizes Beretta's answer to the "baby Glock" as her sidearm. Usually fits it with a under barrel laser ai..."

For a time, the character also used a Smith and Wesson Bodyguard handgun fitted with a suppressor.
Nightmarishly fast with it to say the least.


message 13: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Michel wrote: "Samuel wrote: "The Hunter (Victor the Assassin, #1) by Tom Wood
The Enemy (Victor the Assassin, #2) by Tom Wood
The Game (Victor the Assassin, #3) by Tom Wood

From a technical standpoint, the FN 57 is one of the greats and is the weapon of cho..."



Blacklist Aftermath (Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell, #7) by Peter Telep
Another user of the FN57 is Sam Fisher, one of the most beloved creations from Tom Clancy's video game studio. His one is customized with a special kind of suppressor. Shaped like a compensator attachment, its reduced profile allows him great ease of aiming.


message 14: by Feliks (last edited Aug 18, 2015 09:54PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) Another unsolicited gripe (sry d00d): in what way does the thread title match the conversation we're having? I can't see the connection. How can I find this thread a year from now? 'Your favorite pistols' dropped off the edge, somehow...just sayin'...?


message 15: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "Another unsolicited gripe (sry d00d): in what way does the thread title match the conversation we're having? I can't see the connection. How can I find this thread a year from now? 'Your favorite p..."

Alternative titles:

> "Greatest Hitters Compilation"

> "The Armory" Spy Fiction's handguns.


message 16: by Feliks (last edited Aug 18, 2015 10:24PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) Handgun Serenade
Handguns 'R' Us
Fill your hand!
Aim, Brace, Squeeze
8mm
9mm
Down the Barrel
Make My Day
...I don't know..just chirruping..mentally exhausted after long day..


message 17: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "Handgun Serenade
Handguns 'R' Us
Fill your hand!
Aim, Brace, Squeeze
8mm
9mm
Down the Barrel
Make My Day
...I don't know..just chirruping..mentally exhausted after long day.."


Down the barrel....catchy. I think it would do nicely. Thanks for the suggestion.


message 18: by Feliks (last edited Aug 18, 2015 10:34PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely got a lot of questions about handguns swirling around in my head.

For example, evolution of handgun training? Postures, stances?

Rifling of the barrel?

Zip guns?

Finish, sheen, blueing?

Ring of Fire?

Accuracy as a function of barrel length?

Women's guns?

Impossible shots?

Fastest draw?

The infamous holster question?

1930s vs today?

The Mauser?

The Eastwood .44?

Laser sights?

Movie phoniness?

All sorts of topics.


message 19: by Feliks (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) p.s. what are considered the 'top ten best handguns', as chosen out there in gossip-land?

Ranker.com must have addressed this eh


message 20: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "p.s. what are considered the 'top ten best handguns', as chosen out there in gossip-land?

Ranker.com must have addressed this eh"


Best handguns? Impossible to determine due to advances in technology and several long standing classics like the M1911 still surviving with incremental updates and being made by other companies who try put their own signature onto great classics.


message 21: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "p.s. what are considered the 'top ten best handguns', as chosen out there in gossip-land?

Ranker.com must have addressed this eh"


However, for most, I'd say it's a toss up between the Glock handgun and the M1911A1.


message 22: by Feliks (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) That's fair. I like things which are 'impossible to determine'.


message 23: by Samuel , Director (last edited Aug 18, 2015 10:47PM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "p.s. what are considered the 'top ten best handguns', as chosen out there in gossip-land?

Ranker.com must have addressed this eh"


To elaborate. The M1911A1 was the first great handgun which influenced future design (there's a reason why the design has lasted for almost a century and others like the Mauser C96 have ended up in the history books)
Glock is the only company which has had equal influence from a technical standpoint, namely with its innovations in safety, materials and capacity.
It's the upstart vs the grandaddy


message 24: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "That's fair. I like things which are 'impossible to determine'."

I mean even my favorite (Heckler and Koch USP) used a modified M1911's operating system. And this is Heckler and Koch, one of the most creative armaments manufacturers on the planet. Up until that point, they had avoided using the Browning system, coming up with their own creations for their products.


message 25: by Michel (last edited Aug 19, 2015 07:26AM) (new)

Michel Poulin | 167 comments Feliks wrote: "My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely go..."


I would like to give my two-cent on two of the subjects you proposed, Feliks. Other readers are then welcomed to discuss them/shoot down my arguments, etc.

First, the evolution of handgun training, including postures and stances. The most striking evolution is that of the gripping of the handgun in combat, from the classic one-hand stance to the modern two-hand stance. This, I believe, came mostly from the appearance of high-capacity pistols. In the old Far West, the one-hand stance with sideways aiming was favored because one had only a limited number of shots available, ie 5-6 per revolver. Thus, you could not simply fire like a maniac (the way too many U.S. cops shoot these days), unless you wanted to find yourself with an empty revolver while your opponent is calmly aiming for your heart. Also, the sideways stance diminished the size of target you presented to your opponent and also helped in firing from behind a corner or other similar cover. Accuracy, allied with speed of shooting for your first shot, was king then. Then came the first semi-automatic pistols (Colt M1911, Bolo Mauser), which gave more available rounds ready to fire and were also much faster to reload. The advent of smokeless powder, replacing the old black powder, also helped by eliminating that thick white cloud of smoke created when you fire a black powder weapon. You could thus fire at a faster rate for longer without being blinded by smoke and with the assurance that you could reload your handgun in seconds instead of tens of seconds. Still, the old sideways, one-hand stance continued to prevail, but more because of tradition rather than practicability. As more powerful calibers (.357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum) appeared, shooters experienced more severe recoil and needed to firm up their grip on their weapons. A few innovators (Elmer Keith among them) then came in the 1940s-50s and advocated the two-hand stance as being faster, more stable and more accurate for quick, combat shooting. In contrast, European purists still clung to the one-hand stance but many European police 'experts' added the stupid notion that you would use your weak arm to cover and protect your chest area while firing one-handed but facing squarely your enemy. That, apart from providing only an illusion of added protection (better use body armor instead), robbed you of the use of your weak hand to steady your aim, while making you present the largest target possible to the enemy. Most European police forces then trained their officers according to that stance, which was in my opinion the height of stupidity. Meanwhile, American pistol shooters trained on the two-hand stance and on pistol combat techniques, perfecting it gradually to the level it is today. Unfortunately, someone this side of the Atlantic had to do something stupid, not to stay behind the Europeans in that domain. Thus, Hollywood and street gangs lore came up with the useless, stupid but 'cool-looking' flat hold, where you twist your gun to a flat horizontal plane while trying to aim your gun ('trying' is the operative word). While too many thought that this looked cool, they also thought that this allowed fast, accurate firing (they being mostly very poor shooters who replaced accuracy with volume of fire). Wrong! Try that flat stance one day at the range and go see how accurate (or rather inaccurate) it is. But it looks cool!

Next, handguns for women. While I have only respect for women in general and treat them as equals, seeing women using huge magnum pistols in movies (I'm looking at you, Demi Moore, with your Desert Eagle .50 AE in CHARLIE'S ANGELS 2) just makes me laugh. First, those big magnum pistols generally have large handgrips to accommodate the bigger magnum rounds, thus are often too big to be properly held by the average woman's hand. Also, due to size again, a woman's index would be often too short to rest properly on the trigger, thus causing jerking and lack of accuracy when firing. There is also the matter of recoil. I have fired extensively magnum pistols and, if not handled properly, you will end up with either a sore wrist after extensive firing or a nice pockmark on your forehead after the first shot. Thus, ladies, use a caliber that, while an effective man-stopper, is also manageable for you. 9mm and .38 Special are two good calibers in that respect. So is the new 5.7mm round. The good old .45 Caliber, despite its reputation, actually has a very manageable recoil in my opinion and also could do for women. Pistols in those calibers have ample firepower, yet can be held comfortably in most female hands. If you have to carry a concealed handgun or keep it in your purse, then compactness comes into play as well. A nice purse gun or female conceal-carry gun would thus be the Glock 26 in 9mm, or its variant in .45 Caliber. While having less firepower, the Smith & Wesson Bodyguard .38 Special revolver is very compact and light and, with its shrouded hammer, won't snag on the lining of your purse. It is also very easy to use and is completely safe while carried fully loaded in the double action mode.

Well, that's my opinion on those two subjects. Feel free to debate, analyze or dismember it to your content, folks.


message 26: by Feliks (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) Great stuff. So, when you look at a movie like 'Dirty Harry' you see all sorts of errors?


message 27: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 167 comments I do, although Clint Eastwood is a big enough guy to be able to handle properly the powerful Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum revolver. In terms of movies, my pet peeves in terms of weapons are the 'bottomless magazine' (you change it at the end of the movie) and the 'fireball grenade' (in which a hand grenade causes a huge fireball, instead of the actual small flash and puff of smoke (the blast, which is mostly invisible, and fragments are the real killers).


message 28: by Joshua (new)

Joshua Hood | 161 comments Not a huge fan of the 5-7. A bit too much velocity for my taste and if you're not wearing ear pro, you will wish you would. I do know that the Narco's love it however.
I love this thread


message 29: by Samuel , Director (last edited Aug 22, 2015 02:47AM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Anyone here watch "The Man From Uncle TV Show/2015 Film"? You would have probably noticed the handguns they were using. 9mm Walther P38s with rifle scopes and wire stocks.

Well, it seems we have a modern 21st century equivalent. I'm posting because in the new James Bond film trailer, something similar to the product linked below is featured, where Bond tries to make a shot across a street in Mexico City with a Glock equipped with one.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether there is any point in using one of these toys to convert a pistol into a very short carbine or if it's redundant with perfectly good assault/battle rifles out there which can do medium range sniping in a pinch.

http://www.fab-defense.com/en/categor...


message 30: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
The trailer in question. The conversion shroud/kit is featured near the start. He might have used it to hit something rather flammable with it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTDaE...


message 31: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Samuel wrote: "The trailer in question. The conversion shroud/kit is featured near the start. He might have used it to hit something rather flammable with it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTDaE..."


I suppose the main advantage is in concealment. With a sling of some kind, you can hide it a large jacket. No need to lug around large sports bags/suspiciously long briefcases/tool boxes


message 32: by Samuel , Director (last edited Aug 22, 2015 02:57AM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Also, regarding the scene in question, it's a nod to the License To Kill film. Mr Craig is making the same shot Mr Dalton failed to pull off with the latter using a rifle disguised as a film camera. At the same hotel and firing line no less.


message 33: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely go..."


Regarding laser sights/aiming modules, they're only useful in low light conditions/or in situations where you can't bring up the actual gun sights fast enough and need to increase the chances of a hasty shot hitting the target.


message 34: by Feliks (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) didnt know that..


message 35: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "didnt know that.."

Outside of that, they're not useful. It's annoying when for dramatic effect, film/network TV snipers fit them to highly expensive, ridiculously accurate rifles which in real life wouldn't need that dead weight attached to them


message 36: by Samuel , Director (last edited Aug 22, 2015 04:23PM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "didnt know that.."

Related to the second point in my previous post, there's a company called "crimson trace", their main product is pistol grips for handguns and snub nose revolvers. With a twist. They have built in laser aiming modules integrated into the grip which activate when you squeeze hard. Mel Gibson fitted them to his Beretta 92FS in the last lethal weapon film.


message 37: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "didnt know that.."

The company in question. Here's their catalog for their laser grips. http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/...


message 38: by Samuel , Director (last edited Aug 22, 2015 04:42PM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely go..."


Mauser? Haven't been in the business of making pistols for a century. C96 was a good gun, but the M1911A1 was just better in every single way shape and form. Lighter, and you didn't need a rather annoying holster/stock to use it effectively.
Although interestingly enough, it was one of the reasons why the gangsta style was supposedly invented.

Story goes like this (may or may not be true)

You see, there was this warlord in Republican China. He had this arms factory and made the finest knock-off of the C96 chambered for the .45 ACP round. Called the "box cannon". Unfortunately, the damn thing was too difficult to aim and it jammed due to the ejection system. He killed both problems in one fell swoop by inventing a new tactic. Hold the gun sideways and basically use it as a metaphorical "room broom" to sweep from right to left. Proved highly effective surprisingly enough. At the very least the box cannon was more reliable.


message 39: by Feliks (last edited Aug 22, 2015 05:11PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) the way it could be held as a rifle or a pistol


message 40: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "the way it could be held as a rifle or a pistol"

Pistol? Not so much. Caliber was like a bucking bronco according to reports, hence the stock.


message 41: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely go..."


As a rule, long barrel length allows a bullet's propellants to burn more efficiently and build up the gases which operate the weapon far more than a shorter barrel.
However as for handguns, a long barrel isn't practical for most situations. Glock for instance utilizes hexagonal rifling. This creates a seal of sorts around the chambered round, trapping the gases when they ignite and negating the need for a overly long barrel on their products (except for their competition pistols)


message 42: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 167 comments I don't know why so many people say that .45 ACP pistols have a very strong recoil. Compared to any magnum handgun, .45 ACP handguns are very manageable in terms of recoil. A hard to control handgun more often than not is caused by bad ergonomics rather than the caliber itself, unless of course you insist on using .44 Magnum and .500 Magnum handguns.


message 43: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
"You're holding that thing sideways.
You can't aim it, and two, it'll eject a shell casing right into your face. See?"- John Reese CIA special activities division officer on why the gangsta style sucks in real life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbFl5...


message 44: by Samuel , Director (last edited Aug 22, 2015 09:07PM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely go..."


Smith and Wesson Model 29? Apart from old Clint, the French Counter-terrorism team GIGN loved the .44 Magnum, and to the best of my recollection still use it on special occasions.


message 45: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Feliks wrote: "My pleasure. You're a gifted writer, as I've stated before. Our two styles complement each other.

But you also know a lot of lore. I could see this thread really blooming. I myself, have surely go..."


1930's vs Today? Today advances in technology have allowed armaments firms to make superior, more reliable, easier to use and accurate weapons and ammunition.


message 46: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Once read some book called The November Man. About an American spy. Interestingly he used a Colt Cobra as his weapon of choice. Said he didn't trust the reliability of semi-automatics. Eventually he was forced to trade in his hand-cannon and get a Browning HI-Power and later a Beretta 92F.


message 47: by Samuel , Director (last edited Nov 13, 2015 11:39PM) (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Pistol Red Dot Optics. Saw that the FN FNP45 allows the shooter to fit one. And there was a bit character in a book I read last year who fitted her Ruger MK3 with one for a hit.

Not sure about the tactical benefits or point. Bigger that normal iron sights. Does it make it faster? Clearer shot? I'd say it's more delicate. Iron sights do not have glass and small scale electronic components to worry about.


message 48: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 167 comments There is another option these days: fiber optic fixed sights. The front iron sight is replaced by a small steel post with a central round hole through it which contains a small segment of colored fiber optic. The device is as solid as an iron sight and needs no power of electronic parts, but is easier to see in the dark.


message 49: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Michel wrote: "There is another option these days: fiber optic fixed sights. The front iron sight is replaced by a small steel post with a central round hole through it which contains a small segment of colored f..."

Yeah. A much more practical alternative.
Leave the optics on the rifles and submachine guns.
Pistol optics are only necessary in a competitive shooting championship


message 50: by Samuel , Director (new)

Samuel  | 4692 comments Mod
Reading a book I got for holiday reading.
The main character is still using a Walther PPK in the age of Glock 26's and Heckler and Koch 416 assault rifles. Astonishing somewhat considering a few years back he was experimenting with a Wilson Combat M1911


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