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message 1: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Credit to our moderator Felix for inspiring this post.
Whether you're liquidating an enemy of the state in the alleys of continental Europe or duking it out with Islamic terrorists in the hills of Afghanistan, characters in the paramilitary side of spy fiction will always bring along a handgun of some kind.

So, come, share with us your favorite pistols that have featured in a spy thriller novel/TV show/film series and tell us why they're the best.

Or tell us the worst handguns that you've seen in spy fiction and the reasons why they were unsuitable.


message 2: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
Ty for this fun spin-off thread. It needed to be done, good idea!

I look forward to learning some interesting gun-lore. Of course, on the web there's lots of gun sites (ha! get it? 'gun sites'?) but its usually a case of TMI.

I'd like to see more non-lethal firearms in the USA for both cops and robbers (but this statement might land us in a debate so nevermind)


message 3: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 03:38PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Feliks wrote: "Ty for this fun spin-off thread. It needed to be done, good idea!

I look forward to learning some interesting gun-lore. Of course, on the web there's lots of gun sites (ha! get it? 'gun sites'?) b..."


Non-lethal weapons? Only one that's interested me lately is the shotgun shell Taser is working on. Goes further than an actual Taser and incapacitates targets for 10 seconds. It's intended to allow cops to close the distance.


message 4: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments The Expediter (Kirk McGarvey, #13) by David Hagberg
One of the worst handguns I've seen is the Russian PSM. Only redeeming quality is the size. Perfect to stick in an ankle holster. Apart from that, capacity and caliber are godawful.


message 5: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 03:47PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments The Game (Victor the Assassin, #3) by Tom Wood

In this book, the main antagonist uses a SIG-Sauer Mosquito as his sidearm. If he were an assassin, I wouldn't have minded. Good caliber, decent capacity and with SIG-Sauer's legendary reliability. However, he isn't a contract killer. He's a criminal who is being hunted. His enemies find him in a restaurant in Rome. They bring along automatic weapons.
So as a self defense weapon, it's the worst choice imaginable, compounded by the owner's lack of combat training. The only thing that saves the poor shmuck is that his dinner guest IS an assassin. The dinner guest takes the Mosquito, uses it to ambush one of the hunters, take's the man's Mossberg 590 and for the rest of the gunfight, doesn't bother using the SIG

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProduc...


message 6: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
I read a book once where the hero knew in advance he was going to be frisked by the bad guys, and so he needed the absolutely smallest 1 shot pistol he could conceal on his body. He was going to try to bluff his way through the frisk in the hopes that they wouldn't be that rigorous or thorough about it. That is to say, he expected to be frisked in all the usual places but hoped they'd miss a few nooks and crannies.

I don't want to say where he had to carry it. This is a family website.


message 7: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Feliks wrote: "I read a book once where the hero knew in advance he was going to be frisked by the bad guys, and so he needed the absolutely smallest 1 shot pistol he could conceal on his body. He was going to tr..."

Oh.


message 8: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 03:58PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Speaking of small guns, in the spy/science fiction tv show Person Of Interest which I watch a lot, an anti-hero who screws over the main characters utilizes this puppy. She's had a lot of practice with it and to get around capacity problems, makes a point of shooting her victims when they aren't looking, usually in the back of the head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DoubleT...


message 9: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 04:01PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments On a side note, I suppose spies assassins and paramilitary officers are not covered by The Hague Convention prohibiting use of hollow points? Always been confused by the reasoning behind that treaty. There are other, worse weapons of war that deserve to be banned. Biological weapons for starters.


message 10: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Aug 15, 2015 04:11PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
I don't watch any tv these days but whenever I do, I am usually confirmed that its not for me. I'm sure the programs you follow are good; but I guess I'm just a control-freak and can't take glitches.

One time I saw an interrogation of a female agent (USA) and she was tied to a chair (ankles lashed to front legs, wrists tied down behind the backrest). She waits for her interrogator to crouch in front of her and then with seemingly superhuman abdominal strength, she reverse-somersalts the chair so that the chair flips up in a huge arc over her head and lands on the soldier in front of her, her weight now pinning his shoulders to the floor. From there she gets him to untie her and escape the air base entirely.

Just no. Can't handle this. It was a highly-rated show at the time, too. I gotta think they've gotten better, (especially if someone like yourself vets them as decent) but I just can't take the chance on wasting more of my time and credulity.


message 11: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 04:42PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Feliks wrote: "I don't watch any tv these days but whenever I do, I am usually confirmed that its not for me. I'm sure the programs you follow are good; but I guess I'm just a control-freak and can't take glitche..."

Agreed. Network TV is a mixed bag at times.


message 12: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments In The Bourne Supremacy film, Jason Bourne used a SIG-Sauer P225 to great effect, especially during his epic game of "chess" across Moscow in the climax of the film. Specifically to set up a P.I.T maneuver which he uses to flatten a FSB officer/part time contract killer who is driving a large Mercedes G-Wagen SUV.


message 13: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Anyone read anything which featured a Browning GP35? A flawed masterpiece, but a masterpiece no less by the Da Vinci of firearms John Browning and his assistant Monsieur Saive. I've only mentioned it here because there's a recently released spy thriller film which is based on the first actual spy fiction tv series. One of the main characters, an American spy uses one equipped with a suppressor as his sidearm.


message 14: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 05:23PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Samuel wrote: "Anyone read anything which featured a Browning GP35? A flawed masterpiece, but a masterpiece no less by the Da Vinci of firearms John Browning and his assistant Monsieur Saive. I've only mentioned ..."

Heh, just remembered. The Hi-Power Dark Winter (Nick Stone, #6) by Andy McNab was featured here. Main character is former SAS. The author was also former SAS. Book published before the SIG-Sauer P226 and Glock 17 were introduced into the regiment.


message 15: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
The Peacemaker Colt..always worth a mention

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/...


message 16: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Feliks wrote: "The Peacemaker Colt..always worth a mention

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/..."


The literary Man With The Golden Gun used one as I recall. Ran out of bullets when facing James Bond in a swamp. Pulled out a derringer before he died. Scored a hit.


message 17: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 195 comments Having shot many models of handguns of various caliber in my life, from .22LR to .44 Magnum, I would say that what makes a good handgun depends on the use you want to make of it. For example, what would make an excellent concealable backup pistol would probably be frowned upon by a paramilitary officer about to assault an enemy stronghold (okay, okay, I know that he would use an assault rifle as a first choice, but let's say that he could only bring with him a handgun). The following are for me the qualities/features desired in a handgun meant for a specific role:
- For an assassin in a discrete, close range situation: reasonable concealability combined with good accuracy, reliability and stopping power (any compact model of Glock, HK or Sig-Sauer pistol in 9mm, .45 caliber or .40 caliber, with sound suppressor added).
- If you don't mind making a lot of noise and intend to make it spectacular in order to pass a message, then use a .44 magnum handgun that can still be hidden in a coat pocket or under a vest, so that you can calmly enter that restaurant to go blow someone's brains all over the wall from close range (a four inch barreled Smith & Wesson .44 Magnum revolver would be a good choice or, if you really want to create a stampede, use the Smith & Wesson Model 500, caliber .50 Smith & Wesson Magnum, with a 4 inch barrel.
- As an open-carry handgun for a paramilitary officer on a mission in some shithole jungle, shanty town or desert, reliability and firepower will be prime considerations (you can completely disregard concealability). However, don't forget that you will have to lug that handgun around on long marches in difficult terrain, so don't use a Desert Eagle magnum pistol that will drag your pants down to your ankles! The Sig-Sauer P226, Glock 17, Beretta 92 or FN Five-Seven would be good choices, among many other fine pistols. Forget revolvers (limited to 5-6 rounds capacity), unless used strictly as a backup weapon.
- For everyday conceal carry by a spy or undercover agent, compactness and lightness will have to be prime factors, along with reasonable stopping power (please, no .25 caliber peashooter, ladies!). There are numerous good quality, compact handguns in either 9mm, .40 or .38 Special caliber on the market for that role, like the Glock 26 9mm compact pistol. Since sensible spies and undercover agents won't normally engage in daily gunfights, big ammunition capacity will be secondary. A fine lady gun for purse-carrying purpose is the Smith & Wesson Bodyguard revolver in .38 Special caliber, with a two inch barrel. Its shrouded hammer prevents snagging on clothes of internal purse lining when pulling it out and, as a double action revolver, it is both very reliable and easy to use.
- And for the maniac who intends to take on a drug warlord and his army of bodyguards: GET A FRIGGIN ASSAULT RIFLE!


message 18: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 06:02PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Michel wrote: "Having shot many models of handguns of various caliber in my life, from .22LR to .44 Magnum, I would say that what makes a good handgun depends on the use you want to make of it. For example, what..."

Wow. You've hit the nail on the head.
A most impressive and comprehensive analysis. Thank you very much Michel for that post


message 19: by Samuel (last edited Aug 15, 2015 06:02PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Michel wrote: "Having shot many models of handguns of various caliber in my life, from .22LR to .44 Magnum, I would say that what makes a good handgun depends on the use you want to make of it. For example, what..."

The only thing I could probably add to that list is one of those lovely Ruger MK automatics, specifically the MK3 with the barrel replaced by an integrated suppressor.


message 20: by David (new)

David I just wish that authors would discover that revolvers don't have a safety.


message 21: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 195 comments David wrote: "I just wish that authors would discover that revolvers don't have a safety."

How could someone write 'spy/spec ops thrillers' and do such a basic (not to say something else) mistake?


message 22: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Haven't seen that error. By now most authors would know revolvers don't have safety catches.


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments The standard round for Israeli agents who intend to...inhum (to use Sir Terry Pratchett's word)is the .22 LR. It's low velocity so works well with a suppressor and the round tends to...well bounce around inside the skull. Entry wound with no exit.

For "general use" I'm still of the "you can't beat the 1911 Colt" school. It fits the hand excellently and is almost amazingly reliable.

I also like the design and feel of a Czech pistol designed and introduced in 1975 (surprisingly called the CZ 75). It's very much a 1911 clone however.


message 24: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
yeah Paladin! One of my fave posters on GR. Good to hear from ya!


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments Just found the group, looking for military reads.


message 26: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
Well that's fine, because I put a lot of work into the bookshelves here. I stole from everyone! Let us know what you turn up.


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments I'm browsing your shelves. A lot I've read but there are often books by the authors I haven't read. I'm looking through Larry Bond's titles right now.


message 28: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I'm browsing your shelves. A lot I've read but there are often books by the authors I haven't read. I'm looking through Larry Bond's titles right now."

Mr Bond is one of the old masters. Worked with Tom Clancy for one book and then successfully made his own mark on the techno-thriller genre. "Cauldron" is my particular favorite.


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments I've read a lot of his books. I was checking for ones I'd missed. Thanks.


message 30: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
We've got a submarine thread too


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments I don't have one of those...


message 32: by Feliks, Moderator (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
When I reached draft age, they wanted me for the submarine service actually

see, I knew all the best dives

:P


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments bah-dum-bump!


Even though I was in the army I may have know a few dives you missed....probably stationed in different places.


message 34: by Feliks, Moderator (last edited Aug 21, 2015 07:24PM) (new)

Feliks (dzerzhinsky) | 1090 comments Mod
Foistest and bestest wit da mostest! Grunts always take the best pickins' and leave bones for the rest of us!

(I'm sure you heard that before)

Yknow, my first real training was with the K-9 corps

Yep. I came out a bark private


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments o_O


message 36: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 195 comments The difference between handguns, machine pistol and PDWs (personal defense weapons) is becoming more and more blurred, with some machine pistols and PDWs being so compact that they are no bigger than the biggest handguns on the market. If you compare, say, a Desert Eagle .50 AE pistol (very popular lately in Hollywood movies), classified as a handgun, and the Micro-Uzi (machine pistol or SMG?), the Micro-Uzi is actually smaller and lighter, but can fire in full automatic, contrary to the Desert Eagle. So, choosing the most useful and practical weapon for a spook or spec ops guy is getting increasingly challenging. Only in the ultra-compact, concealed-carry backup category is the handgun still the obvious choice. Mind you, who would argue with a man who carries a Micro-Uzi (with short 10-roung magazine in place) in a shoulder rig and a Glock 26 pistol in a ankle holster?


message 37: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Michel wrote: "The difference between handguns, machine pistol and PDWs (personal defense weapons) is becoming more and more blurred, with some machine pistols and PDWs being so compact that they are no bigger th..."


And now we have this thing. I find it a bit redundant. How about you? It was featured on a tv show recently. Forgot the name.
http://www.fab-defense.com/en/categor...


message 38: by Sirius (new)

Sirius Alexander (Sirius_Alexander) | 40 comments That was in the new mission impossible film too


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments Ahhh, the Desert Eagle. The world's only crew operated hand-weapon.

:)

I think prejudice or to put it more palatably a matter of preference has a lot to do with the personal choice of a weapon. I've never been a fan of the 9mm...but it's possibly the world's most common round. I wish the Army/U.S.Military had gone on with their plan to go with the H&K 45. The big draw for the .9mm of course is the mag. capacity.

I'm somewhat a fan of the RN .57 which some call a .22 on steroids. An armor piercing small round with aprox the same ballistic power as the .9mm. It's only draw back is of course that's always a high speed round to get that performance so a suppressor isn't all the effective.

The SOG troops tend to have more leeway in their selection of personal weapon, especially Delta and SEALs. It gives them more flexibility.


message 40: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 195 comments Samuel wrote: "Michel wrote: "The difference between handguns, machine pistol and PDWs (personal defense weapons) is becoming more and more blurred, with some machine pistols and PDWs being so compact that they a..."

This KPOS is nothing more basically than a set of extra grip and butt adapted to a pistol (in this case a Glock). Nothing more than a gimmick to fleece people who want to look flashy. You might as well get a real PDW designed from the start for the role, with better ergonomics and less sharp corners liable to snag on your clothes.


message 41: by Michel (new)

Michel Poulin | 195 comments Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Ahhh, the Desert Eagle. The world's only crew operated hand-weapon.

:)

I think prejudice or to put it more palatably a matter of preference has a lot to do with the personal choice of a weapon. I..."


Actually, I believe that the 5.7mm X 28 round is a better round for military and paramilitary operators. Why? It can penetrate body armor, which is liable to be worn by many opponents in a war theatre, has a flat trajectory and is thus very accurate up to 200 meters and, as icing on the cake, can feed both a PDW type weapon (FN P-90) and a pistol (FN Five-Seven), thus simplifying your ammunition supply.


message 42: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Hollow points. 9mm ones can make a hole just as big as a .45 ACP round, with less recoil and combined with high capacity magazines, you get more bang for your buck. The only problem is with that pesky Hague Convention. Can't bring along hollow points in war. But paramilitary organizations run by intelligence services aren't constrained by that piece of pointless legislation are they?


message 43: by Samuel (last edited Aug 22, 2015 03:36PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Act of War (Scot Harvath, #13) by Brad Thor

There's a weapon in this book chambered for a rival caliber to the 5.7mm. The 4.6x30mm. Heckler and Koch was about to make a pistol for it but for some reason didn't. Pity. It's a missing link.


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments I see the direction the discussion is going, and that's cool, but a PDW is usually considered a submachine gun. There are full auto handguns but as noted PDWs tend to be a different animal.


message 45: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I see the direction the discussion is going, and that's cool, but a PDW is usually considered a submachine gun. There are full auto handguns but as noted PDWs tend to be a different animal."

Edited my previous post to keep things on topic.


message 46: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Ahhh, the Desert Eagle. The world's only crew operated hand-weapon.

:)

I think prejudice or to put it more palatably a matter of preference has a lot to do with the personal choice of a weapon. I..."


I hear they've finally broken up with Beretta. Company tried to sell them on something called the 92A3. The D.O.D told them to sod off. Now a lot of firms such as Smith and Wesson will be coming out to try succeed where they failed in the 1980's.


message 47: by Samuel (last edited Aug 22, 2015 03:41PM) (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments Glock will probably take their shot. Couldn't submit the G17 due to scheduling issues the last time. Perhaps they'll try again or modify the Glock 21 and submit that. Delta Force is already using it and the G23.


message 48: by Samuel (new)

Samuel  | 647 comments The Last Man (Mitch Rapp, #13) by Vince Flynn
Founder of the counter-terrorist sub-genre of spy fiction Vince Flynn said he had two favorite weapons. The FN 57, due to it being a noteworthy technical achievement and the Glock 19. Regarding the latter, he said he was originally put off by the aesthetics but when his Beretta 92FS kept jamming on him, he tried it out, fell in love with it and made it the sidearm of his creation, Mitch Rapp.


Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments I haven't heard recently. I know that they had intended to go with the HK 45 from H&K but then backed off on "budget grounds" (think about that...all the crap they spend money on and we can't get the best weapons and body armor for our troops).

I was in when we got the M16 A1, it corrected the problems with the original. Weapons that troops depend on...made by the lowest bidder.


message 50: by Mike (the Paladin) (last edited Aug 22, 2015 04:08PM) (new)

Mike (the Paladin) (thepaladin) | 19 comments I'd like to try the Sig P226 and the Sig P250. They look good on paper bit I haven't had a chance to try them...well I haven't had a chance to shoot a lot of weapons I'd like to.


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