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message 1: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Chris suggested this as a good topic of discussion. I wonder where it will go with this group? I personally was pretty disappointed in both debaters.

message 2: by Brent (new)

Brent McCulley (brentthewalrus) Nye is a materialist...I honestly did not think he believed the universe to be uncreated and eternal.

message 3: by Chris Warns (new)

Chris Warns | 45 comments I'm more conservative when it comes to how I view genesis so I'm all for ken ham, but all together I thought both did fairly well. Ken Ham made it his goal to present the differences between what he has labeled observational and historical science but his ultimate goal, where I thought he did best, was to present the gospel to his listeners. It was interesting how bill nye kept stating that, if anyone found anything that extended through multiple layers of strata in the fossil record than the "scientific" community would embrace him. Yet we find things like polystrate fossils in places like Oklahoma and New Mexico. There was a lot of subliminal ad hominem attacks from bill nye side as well, especially towards scientists who called themselves creationist. I would love to see Nye debate Craig tho.

message 4: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments I agree, Ham's primary focus seemed to be presenting the Gospel. The way he insistently ignored what he called "historical science" was silly, and amounted to admitting the failure of creationism to provide a reasonable world view ... which was the whole topic of the debate. On the other hand, Nye had little data, presented it horribly so a creationist audience would rarely understand what he was talking about, and got hyped up on side topics like his concern for American education instead.

Nye is not an experienced debater. Ham brilliantly ignored tough topics and snowballed his audience, while Nye ignored all opportunities (or perhaps just could not get his act together) to ridicule Ham under the table based on the goofy claims Ham was making. Ham thus won by default.

I would like to see a decent debater meet with Craig. Nye found out it takes more than just knowing your stuff, you also have to present well.

message 5: by Brent (new)

Brent McCulley (brentthewalrus) Craig has debated some serious debaters over the years, Lee. Did you mean to say a good debater meet with Ham?

message 6: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments No, I meant Craig. I agree, Craig is very sound, and he doesn't cripple himself by taking on a young-earth perspective.

I lost my respect for Ham when he couldn't even address the topic ... his entire debate tactic was to say "you weren't there so you don't know what happened" and then insinuate that real Christians have to believe the way he does.

message 7: by Brent (new)

Brent McCulley (brentthewalrus) Yeah, I find this false dichotomy very disturbing. I want at Caesars crossing of the Rubicon, but as a historical fact, I can say with almost all certainty that it happened. History is certainly an art, but it is also a mode of rational inquiry. Just because it is not empirical doesn't mean it can't give us information. Same with philosophy and theology.

message 8: by Brent (new)

Brent McCulley (brentthewalrus) *was not, not want

message 9: by David S. T. (new)

David S. T. | 40 comments This debate was painful, I had to start fast forwarding it at one point.

message 10: by Brent (new)

Brent McCulley (brentthewalrus) I still haven't watched it, David. I'm not sure it's worth the time quite frankly.

message 11: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I find it very similar to most Atheist/religious debates. Both sides assume they WON when it's over.

I do think Ken Hamm did a great job of inserting the Bible and Jesus whenever he could. Doesn't win the debate - but a great ministry opportunity. It was worth it!

message 12: by Robert (last edited Feb 13, 2014 07:50PM) (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments I haven't watched it either. Sounds rather humdrum with no major knockout punches thrown. More excitement in reruns of Gilligan's Island (I can't decide so I'll take both Maryanne and Ginger).

message 13: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments I think Ham did a lot of harm to Christianity by pretending his was the only way to believe. All but Christian fundamentalists find him an embarrassment to Christianity.

message 14: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Lee has a point: The way Ken Hamm stood up and declared the Bible the trustworthy word of God was UNACCEPTABLE...and then he shared the books contents with us - How dare a scientist (or human being) do such a thing.

As always - I laugh and ridicule Lee's point.

message 15: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I just watched a fun show called GENESIS WEEK. A Christian scientist went over the bad science and general lies that Bill Nye told. Very entertaining.

He also said that Ken Hamm dropped alot of opportunities to scientifically stand against Bill's evolutionary pseudo-science.

message 16: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Rod, you fascinate me. Do you consider yourself a nonconformist?

message 17: by David (new)

David Clemons | 119 comments Surprise surprise. I agree with Lee's last post. Considering the age of the Earth doesn't effect salvation, I can't see the point belittling Christians that don't believe the same thing. I can't stand Ken Ham. In all the debates I've seen him in all he ever does is dodge questions and interrupt the other person. He embarrasses me and its people like him that drive people away from Christianity.

message 18: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle David I don't think its possible to drive someone away from Christianity. Unless these people are stupid enough to use whatever is closest as their object of TRUTH.

Good question Lee: "Rod... Do you consider yourself a nonconformist?"

I wish. But NO, I have about a hundred people in Christianity that I look up to and trust. If anything I do (or believe) disagrees with them then I need to seriously reconsider my thinking. You've heard some of my list:
"John MacArthur, Ravi Zacharias, William Tyndale, Charles Spurgeon, Norman Geisler, Chuck Swindoll, William Lane Craig, Billy Graham, R.C. Sproul, Greg Laurie, Amy Carmichael, Joni Eareckson-Tada..."

So I seldom act alone. I just stick to the Bible - and I run my thoughts through those people.

message 19: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle But the age of the Earth does BEGIN to affect salvation David.

It is possible to have 99 truths...but then one error could be so big that it twists and distorts all previous truth until there is nothing left. Like Mormons who claim to love Jesus and Salvation...Eventually they end up with a different Jesus/Salvation/God/Heaven/Mankind/LOVE/Bible/History.

At first it is normal to confuse everything in the Bible. But as time goes on: your theology will lead you in a certain direction - either to the God of the Universe, or AWAY from him.

It doesn't surprise me David that you dislike anyone trying to stand up for God's truth.

message 20: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Which of those apologists would you consider young-earth creationists, Rod? I remember when Sproul switched to young-earth creationism a few years back.

message 21: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I have many apologists who are in agreement with a young earth - John MacArthur for example.

But my favorite theologians don't generally make that their highest priority. I am aware that some of my influences are NOT in favor of a young Earth...Ravi Zacharias seldom goes into this area. I'm guessing William Lane Craig is still an Old Earther (possibly because he has his academic reputation to protect. But I could be wrong.)

But it is not necessarily wise to look to theologians and apologists for any scientific truth about the age of the Earth. That is what we have Christian scientists for: from astronomer's to geologists.

message 22: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments But the majority of Christian scientists, and the majority of theologians on your list, have to be ignored when it comes to young-earth creationism. That's why I asked about you being a non-conformist. It's kinda fun to take the minority position, like you're standing against this evil world's legions. It provides a certain satisfaction to be standing up for God against all the heathens (including all the heathen Christians).

Just trying to understand how the mind works. Young-earth creationism fascinate me. I suspect all YEC's have an inbred us-versus-them mentality and this feeds it to be in an extreme minority.

message 23: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle This: US vs. Them mentality is very Biblical.

Luke 13:
23Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

If everyone is doing something - then it's probably NOT from God.

message 24: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Matthew 7
13“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

This shouldn't be a hard verse to understand. Jesus is NOT fooling around. "Few will find it."

message 25: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments I think you missed my point, Rod ... it's that you thrive on an us-versus-them atmosphere. It drives everything you post and stand for, and fits the fundamentalist viewpoint to a T. It does not surprise me that you focus on verses that send people to hell (presumably people who disagree with you).

message 26: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle I think you missed the point LEE:

the entire Bible preaches Us vs.Them. Even Jesus (as I just showed) preached a message to a select few.
I did not invent Hell or any of its teachings...the Bible has alot to say about it - and Jesus fully supported it.

You can argue with me - but it would be better just to admit that you really don't appreciate Jesus or the Word of God.

I'm not a very good fundamentalist - im just a guy who really trusts the Bible. It's okay if you HATE for that. Kind of makes me laugh. :cD

message 27: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Rod wrote: "I think you missed the point LEE:

the entire Bible preaches Us vs.Them.

No it doesn't, Rod. You're way off base on this. Universalists probably have more verses backing their opinion than you do. You simply choose the verses that reinforce the us-verses-them atmosphere you love.

I don't think you have ever studied any alternative opinions, or you wouldn't make such uninformed claims.

message 28: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle You ain't showing me much Lee. Everytime you talk you assume truth is spilling out. Some of us know better.

Here's my favorite bit of US vs. Them:

Elisha Mocked (2 kings 2:)
23Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!" 24When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number.…

Of course then there's Noah and his 7 saved associates - while God destroyed ALL OF HUMANITY.

I guess it's not hard to see how I got those stories confused??? :cD

Would you like me to show you 20 more stories just like those. Us vs. Them INDEED!

message 29: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Would you like the titles of a few good books to read, Rod?

message 30: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle When you say GOOD I don't think it means the same thing as others here think.

Please list your books though. You aren't going to go on about Ehrman, Pagels or Sponge are you?

The only think that will truly convince me of any point is bible verses.

message 31: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments A book I've mentioned many times is Hell Yes/Nell No, if you want a fair examination of scriptural issues. An even better one is All You Want To Know About Hell, by Steve Gregg, though he doesn't talk much about the Universalist view.

They're both respectful and fair.

HEre is a short, free e-book, which is not unbiased but gives a good perspective:

message 32: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Wow! Crystal is bizarre. She has missed the entire point of Jesus very existence and purpose. And yet she goes on and on...while citing very few sources - other than her imagination and some far fetched Bible verse understandings.

Kind of like you Lee. She basically turns Christianity into a kind of Buddhism. Satan is proud!

Anytime you scholastically used the word FAIR my discernment detector forces milk to come out my nose in a comic like fashion. :cD

message 33: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle But back to the Us Vs Them scenario.

I'm curious Lee what you do with Annanias and Sapphira in acts 5

"10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things."

Is that inclusion? Correction? Forgiveness? Peace? general liberal Christian Love?
Or is that (like many other places in scripture) God saying: "GET OUT! You are NOT my children.")

message 34: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Ha! Ha! Rod, I do the same thing with ice cream and disbelief.

message 35: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Sorry to interrupt this little prizefight - carry on, you two!

message 36: by Rod (new)

Rod Horncastle Robert are you saying Ice Cream comes out your nose? You should put that on youtube. :D

message 37: by Robert (new)

Robert Core | 1864 comments Yes, ice cream has a low enough viscosity to make it through the nasal passages. I really hate a discernment moment with corn, it gets stuck and then goes back and forth between lungs and nose like a yoyo when I try to dispel it.

message 38: by Lee (last edited Feb 22, 2014 12:43PM) (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments If Crystal's little booklet didn't provide enough scriptural reference, you need to pick up one of the other two.

My point is not to argue one hellish scenario over another, but to point out the valid, scriptural arguments for Universalists, Conditionalists, Reformists, Traditionalists, and probably a bunch more I haven't heard of. Hell is a very confusing topic, particularly when our compilers translated all kinds of concepts into Hell.

Rod, the first thing I "do" with the story of Annanias and Sapphira is bemoan how quickly Peter strayed from the teachings of Jesus. Let's all go around cursing and killing people who do things we don't like...sheesh.

EDIT: Oh my, I forgot Annihilationists

message 39: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments I have read none of Crystal's writings except her treatise on hell. With a couple minor issues, I found that to be representative of solid Bible researchers. So, you would need to point out to me precisely what you feel is unbiblical if you want me to defend it.

Other than that, sorry I suggested a short, free pamphlet! Johnnie, you sound like you would do better with one of the complete books I listed.

message 40: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments lol. You are excused then, Johnnie.

Those who are NOT excused are those who pretend the Bible espouses only one view about hell, yet adamantly ignore all research which might bring to light the merits of opposing views.

message 41: by Lee (new)

Lee Harmon (DubiousDisciple) | 2112 comments Nice verse. I think the point is, believers in all types of hell have a plethora of verses at their disposal. It seems to be something that our Bible writers shared little agreement on.

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