The Sundered Book Club discussion
The Adversary
>
The Adversary - Chapters 11-13
date
newest »
newest »
I think the thing I enjoyed the most about this section (and there was a lot to enjoy) was how unreliable the narrators often were. It was present to some degree as Dahl was trying to figure out what was going on in his drug-induced vision sequence, which was really neat. But it was really emphasized when Farideh completely misinterpreting what she was seeing with Rhand and the Nameless One. It started subtle, just enough to make me question her, before it got obvious just how badly her mind was working. A similar thing happened as Dahl acted under the influence of Phalar's patron. It was fun (a sort of agonizing, talk back to the book, "no, that's not right!" kind of fun) to see them try, and often fail, to reason through it.
Mod
So, I hope it's obvious to all (as Berliad hints) that the Nameless One is not a normal girl, and not someone to mess around with. She is, in fact, the villain-who-wasn't-in-the-outline. Originally it was just Rhand. But the story required more--there's only so much looming a person can take. He needed what I like to call "the Worse Boss."
My first attempt at this shade from Shade was...a dude. A pretty generic dude. And the trouble was he was so similar to Rhand in so many ways that it started to cast Rhand in a buffoonish light. It's really important to me that Rhand stays scary. So what's simultaneously scarier and completely opposite? A thirteen-year-old girl, imbued with the powers of Shar. (You get more of her backstory later.)
I liked the way the Nameless One was introduced, reminded me of a scene from Blade the series where one of the older vampires arrives and turns out to be a little girl. As with Farideh, who's going to suspect the cute defenceless little girl when theres the obvious evil of Rhand to contend with, even though she can hear him kowtowing to her.
Dahl is finally getting his shit together. Even though he has his moments with the influence of Phalar, he still is becoming a more grounded and slowly more confident person. He is still impulsive and making his own rules a little. But he is seeing the bigger picture and acting in a progressive manner and not as down on himself. It was almost like reliving things over and over with "the wizards finest" was theraputic to him. And on the other hand, how much Farideh is over her head is really becoming apparent. Without all of her normal "postive" influence (I am going to include Lorcan in there because he does help her keep her footing as it benefits him) of her friends and family, and the negative influence from the Nameless One, Rhand, and the weirdness of the ghost, she is in a rough place.
Of course, I like Rhand sweating over the Nameless One too. I should not type what I thought in my head when Farideh noticed how uncomfortable he was. :D
And I still playing the Chosen Scavenger Hunt.
Mod
On a sort of meta-level, I've always described Oota as genderqueer. She's identified as female, but her mannerisms, her dress, her behavior (when considered in the context of an orcish society) are very male--and I think she wouldn't care a fig if you called her "him"--in fact, I guarantee the orc prisoners do--so long as you afforded her the respect she's due.
She was inspired by the Albanian sworn virgins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian...) and the way orcish society is presented in the Realms, where male orcs have all (or nearly all) the presence and power.
Phalar--you may recall from the "blog week'--is named for a drow character that WotC art director, Matt Adelsperger, played in the FR game that also spawned Farideh.
The Drow words are based off of the glossary in Drow of the Underdark, though of course, I tend to extrapolate. And of course, they're cursing:
cahalil: Off cahallin or “raid spoils.” Made singular as “rivvin” to “rivvil.” There's an implication in the usage that these people are just captives who haven’t been caught yet. It implies a certain fondness, in Phalar’s mind anyway. Like, “Let’s pretend I wouldn’t just kill you. I’d keep you as a slave instead. Besties!”
iblithl: 32 Off Iblith! "offal, etc." Which sounds like it means “Shit!” So this is made adjectival in the same way “faer” becomes “faerl” and should be “shitty” or “shitting.”
Mod
keep trying to think of some clever question to get discussion going...so of course it comes to me on a Sunday night. Oh well, I'll post it here, and then I'll repeat it in the next thread.
The trouble with the Fountain scenes is that they are set outside the narrative--the tense changes and the narrative distance shifts. They became a point of discussion with my editor because a) I was WAY over word count and something had to go and b) that change in the narrative can be off-putting for readers.
I've always maintained that fantasy/science fiction readers are primed for that kind of narrative trickery. I don't know, for example, many SF/F readers who were baffled by Inception--it's weird, but it's our bread and butter.
However, my editor is right--the audience who likes things straightforward and linear is much bigger. It's hard to pull stuff like this off.
What are some examples of shifting tense/ weird flashbacks/ other "narrative trickery" that worked for you as a reader?
Recently I was re-reading The Privilege of the Sword and the way the author shifts tense and POV from scene to scene might look a bit haphazard from a distance, but it really adds another layer to the scenes. Places where the main character is sort of "watched" from a distant third person perspective, for example, emphasize a sort of lack of control or disconnected feeling. It's totally "against the rules" and I love it. :)
Erin wrote: "I forgot! I was going to re-post this question:keep trying to think of some clever question to get discussion going...so of course it comes to me on a Sunday night. Oh well, I'll post it here, and..."
I think I answer this in the other thread, but I may have missed the last bit.
Speaking for myself, I am probably not the most sophisticated reader. I struggle with tense errors when I write (despite consciously look for these darn things), so I did not even notice the tense and was keying on the italics. Now that the tense has been pointed out I don't know how I failed to notice the change before.
Edit: Apparently forming sentences that don't contain "I" in it is impossible for me...
Yet again I am running behind. One day I will be able to keep up with these things, I promise.This was an interesting selection of Chapters for me... not least because of the breadth of the material portrayed.
One the one hand you have:
1) Mehen, the Harpers and the Thayvian contingent.
2) Dahl and the proto-Chosen.
3) Farideh and the inhabitants of the Tower.
The settings are so fundamentally contrasted and brought so many characters (even new ones) into focus that it started to feel very reminiscent of something... until I realised that what it was reminding me of was Ed (this is not a bad thing by the way, I like the way he handles such narrative complexities).
Again, the sense of verisimilitude was strong. All of the characters and their responses felt in keeping with their personality and history.
I will be interested to see where Erin takes the proto-Chosen story. Although the abundance of Chosen was considered to be at its strongest in 2E/3E with the Seven and other associated colleagues I have actually found that, around the table, every hero and his dog wants to either be a Chosen or a Demigod when the time to select an Epic Destiny rolls around. It is an intriguing storyline and with the vague horror of the selected Chosen's fate hanging in the background it is certainly one that I have found nagging at the back of my brain as I read this.
That Dahl seems to be regaining some of his old spark (Phalar aside) and possibly even some new backbone is a very welcome turn of events. I cordially detest extensive angst in novels. Thankfully his seems to have had a good basis and wasn't prolonged pointlessly. His flashes of doubt remain believable and don't feel contrived.
Farideh... oh Fari what in the name of all things blue and fuzzy is happening to this girl? A healthy dose of mystery here too. The ghost is an enigma, Rhand's plans are shrouded and the Nameless One gives me the creeps in no uncertain terms. I am really looking forward to where this is going, and it has made me bitterly regret missing out on the e-signing!
Some great comments here - and my apologies for replying so late. As others have said, there's a great blend of action and character development, as the plot continues to deepen. Oota, Phalar and the Nameless One are all excellent characters, and the Nameless One in particular is fantastic as a supremely threatening antagonist. The way that Farideh feels driven to save her from Rhand adds more tension, and it's totally in character given Farideh's history. This whole section is inventive and rich from beginning to end - tremendous stuff!
Mod
Steve wrote: "Some great comments here - and my apologies for replying so late. As others have said, there's a great blend of action and character development, as the plot continues to deepen. Oota, Phalar and t..."I agree with what you said, Steve. Fari's automatic reaction, since she is not exactly thinking clearly here, is to save the Nameless One when it is obvious to the outside observer that if anyone in the room needs saving it is Fari herself!
There is a lovely sense of tension here. What you want Fari to do, and what she is doing of her own volition are so at odds that I, for one, felt like shouting at my kindle in the vain hope that it would get the numbed-skull in question to think straight.
Mod
I did... it was just a furiously silent one. My fellow commuters must have wondered why I was staring at the screen fit to burn a hole in it ;).
Erin wrote: "Maybe if you'd started an argument with her, she would have snapped out of it sooner. ;)"I did like the way Dahl inadvertently saved Farideh simply by being himself :)
Mod
> as a supremely threatening antagonist.
Agreed!
Nameless One is without a doubt one of the all time creepiest Realms Villains we have seen.
I am on record as stating that I like my bad guys bad, and she really fits the bill, plus she has that Children of the Corn kids are evil vibe going which just makes it even more awesome.
Without a doubt she is my stand out character in this section of the Adversary--totally loved her!
Mod
> as a supremely threatening antagonist.
Agreed!
Nameless One is without a doubt one of the all time creepiest Realms Villains we have seen."
Book vs. Nameless One?
EDIT: Or maybe it should be Book AND Nameless One? Villainous Buddy Comedy.
Mod
Nameless One is fantastic & a great creepy threat.
Book is arguably the Greatest Character in the Forgotten Realms.
Wasn't there some talk of a Book 'deleted' chapter type post for those of us who just cannot get enough?
Mod
"). There are strange lights and colors getting in the way of her vision. Tam and Dahl are obviously concerned about what the hell is happening to her, but she can’t articulate it. The light brightens, Farideh swoons and Dahl sprints forward to steady her. Tam goes to the sideboard to pour her some water. When he turns back, there’s a Netherese extraction team encircling them. He moves quickly enough to knock one of them out of alignment, but it doesn’t stop the spell.[...]
"They rouse the shadar-kai Tam captured. Instead of the sending they capture the remaining shadar-kai. He taunts them that torture won’t work, but instead of anything like that, Tam sends for the Book (the artifact from Lesser Evils). This is the mind of a powerful Netherese arcanist trapped in a sentient book capable of drawing thoughts out of the mind of anyone who holds it and creating scrolls with the information. It is not a fan of Tam or the Harpers, but it’s hungry for knowledge. This should be a little uncomfortable. But the Book gets the information about the camp’s existence and approximate location. It also makes it clear that Farideh was expected, but Dahl’s probably dead. Everyone gets very quiet..."
I know I have a few questions that I hope I get answers for, like what is the deal with that ghost? Was Lorcan actually successful at imprisoning his sister or did she lie about which was the Portal bead? What does the High Forest have in store for Mehen? Will Dahle elude his pursuers? And what kind of trouble will the Nameless One bring for Farideh?
Looking forward to everyone's thoughts on this section.