Into the Forest discussion
This topic is about
From the Beast to the Blonde
Meta/Non-Fiction/Scholarly
>
From the Beast to the Blonde
date
newest »
newest »
Mod
Yes. I also think there's still much more societal pressure to look young and beautiful for women than men (especially in the media). While I find the art abhorrent, many of the same attitudes still seem to be in place!
Margaret wrote: What is your work-in-progress about?Series of 3 YA historical romances: What if the Three Musketeers were femmes and the battlefield the marriage market? Three young ladies, snubbed by the important Salons for various reasons, start a Rival Salon as a means of breaking into (or back into) Parisian Society.
Oddly, though, the one thing none of them does is write fairy tales--as Warner says, that really came into vogue around 1685, almost 10 years after my stories take place. But all the other elements of the Salons (poetry, plays, romances, improvs, games, and the hostess ruling the revels from her bed) come into play.
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how the True Cross and Queen of Sheba fit into the "story tellers" discussion. I do see that several important topos derive from these traditions--the distorted body part/magical transformation; riddles; birds; sirens. But I would call them topos or memes or themes or something like that; and in my mind they are linked with other repeating elements in the stories, rather than linked as qualities of storytellers.
I will say that *I know things now, many valuable things, that I hadn't known before,* but I don't quite know how they all fit in or add up. . .
Onward to read about Fools.
Mod
I do see that several important topos derive from these traditions--the di..."
I feel like this subject matter could be written about in many ways, depending on what the writer wanted to include. Part of why I'm enjoying this is that Warner is including information I've never seen including in any other historical fairy tale study. The next chapter I'm ready for is the Queen of Sheba, which I'll read later today.
Susan wrote: "Margaret wrote: What is your work-in-progress about?
Series of 3 YA historical romances: What if the Three Musketeers were femmes and the battlefield the marriage market? Three young ladies, snubb..."
Sounds like fun!
Margaret wrote: I feel like this subject matter could be written about in many ways, depending on what the writer wanted to include. Part of why I'm enjoying this is that Warner is including information I've never seen including in any other historical fairy tale study.Agreed, 100%. I am so glad we chose this book, although the balloting was quite split (and I no longer recall whether I voted for it, myself).
It's so dense with info. I will have to look at some of her other books as time goes on.
Mod
I do see that several important topos derive from these traditions--the di..."
The Queen of Sheba chapters have been the hardest for me to get through. They're very dense, and I know next to nothing about her and the time period. I started the Cinderella chapter today, and I think Warner nicely connects the foot fetish with Sheba, and also Mother Goose earlier (since she supposedly had a webbed foot).
I am looking forward to reading about specific tales now. The storytelling section was fascinating, but I think the tales will be refreshing after the dense history.
I'm glad we read Bound in a previous group read, so I was already familiar with the Chinese version of Cinderella! I also find the Scottish version where the dead mother comes back as a cow wonderful.
Mod
The Queen of Sheba chapters have been the hardest for me to get through. They're very dense, and I know next to nothing about her and the time period. I started the Cinderella chapter today, and I think Warner nicely connects the foot fetish with Sheba, and also Mother Goose earlier (since she supposedly had a webbed foot)..."
Even though I was somewhat familiar with legends of the Queen of Sheba I'd never made the connection between the foot fetish, Cinderella and Mother Goose. Fascinating isn't it?!
Mod
Yes, it is very dense! I had to return it to the library, so I have to admit there were parts I just skimmed through.
Margaret wrote, "I am looking forward to reading about specific tales now. The storytelling section was fascinating, but I think the tales will be refreshing after the dense history."Joke on us, Margaret--the individual fairy tale chapters are equally dense with info! So many versions of each story, and so many obscure ones, at that.
I was able to get an extension on my inter-library loan, so I will be able to finish the book. But I must admit I flipped ahead today and read her pages on the Disney Beauty and the Beast, and found it much easier going! [grins shamefacedly]
Mod
I've considered doing that several times! Though these tale chapters are still pretty dense, since I have some background in the tales themselves I'm finding it easier going. I've started the Sleeping Beauty chapter right now.
In the Cinderella chapter, Warner talks about why women would tell these stories that vilify other women, and gives lots of excellent reasons within a socio-historical context. But I also thought of another reason, which Warner may later touch upon: Mothers telling these stories of villainous step-moms as a "see how good you have it" point for their children. It could be so much worse!
Margaret wrote, "But I also thought of another reason, which Warner may later touch upon: Mothers telling these stories of villainous step-moms as a "see how good you have it" point for their children. It could be so much worse!"How funny and how apt!
I have slowed down a little, now that I've been able to renew my interlibrary loan. I've been interspersing the Warner chapters with fairy tales in this collection (by Jack Zipes, author of next month's group read), Beauties, Beasts and Enchantments: Classic French Fairy Tales. There are a number of stories by Heretier and others Warner mentions (though not all of them).
Meanwhile, turns out I had never read an actual translation of Perrault's own Bluebeard or Puss in Boots or Cinderella, only what must have been adaptations.
Mod
I want to read this one too. I've read Perrault and a few other French fairy tale authors, but not extensively. And after reading several things in this group, like Bitter Greens and From the Beast, I realize French writers had much to do with the history and popularity of fairy tales.
The fun part is that when you go to the library to get a wide view of fairy tales, you are pretty much safe with any "Fairy tales of [Region]" book EXCEPT France. There you have to check that they are not all literary. (There are French folk tale collections, but you have to check.)
Mod
When I first started reading fairy tales again as an adult, the literary fairy tales from France kind of annoyed me. But now I find it fascinating to think about how writers use fairy tale themes and tropes for societal commentary.
Mod
I was especially moved by the conclusion. Here are a few quotes from it, for those who read chapters but not all of it:
"Folk tales powerfully shape national memory; their poetic versions intersect with history, and in the contemporary embattled quest for indigenous identity, underestimating their sway over values and attitudes can be as dangerous as ignoring changing historical realities."
"fairy tales, I have argued in this book, offer a way of putting questions, of testing the structure as well as guaranteeing its safety, of thinking up alternatives as well as living daily reality in an examined way."
"The story itself becomes the weapon of the weaponless. The struggles of women, are not resolved by combat . . . as the contests of men may be in heroic epic; when they need to undo error or redeem wrongdoing or defend the innocent, they raise their voices, if only in a conspiratorial whisper--hence the suspicion of women's talk that haunts the whole history of the old wives' tale."
And one more, which I also put in my review:
"as individual women's voices have become absorbed into the corporate body of male-dominated decision-makers, the misogyny present in many fairy stories--the wicked stepmothers, bad fairies, ogresses, spoiled princesses, ugly sisters and so forth--has lost its connections to the particular web of tensions in which women were enmeshed and come to look dangerously like the way things are. The historical context of the stories has been sheared away, and figures like the wicked stepmother have grown into archetypes of the human psyche, hallowed, inevitable symbols, while figures like the Beast bridegroom have been granted even more positive status . . . The danger of women has become more and more part of the story, and correspondingly, the danger of men has receded: Cinderella's and Snow White's wicked stepmothers teach children to face life's little difficulties, it is argued, but films about a Bluebeard or a child murderer, as in 'Tom Thumb', are rated Adults Only."
Warner definitely seems to come down on archetypal studies of fairy tales. I see her point, and I haven't read many archetypal studies, but I will say Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype encouraged women to take ownership of tales and to become empowered storytellers. It was kind of arguing opposite of what Warner warns of most of these studies--her argument being that they normalize misogyny.
Does anyone think Warner is being too harsh on archetypal studies?
Great review, Margaret.I finished the book last night (in the nick of time; my extended interlibrary loan expires today).
I too was struck by this quote:
"as individual women's voices have become absorbed into the corporate body of male-dominated decision-makers, the misogyny present in many fairy stories--the wicked stepmothers, bad fairies, ogresses, spoiled princesses, ugly sisters and so forth--has lost its connections to the particular web of tensions in which women were enmeshed and come to look dangerously like the way things are. The historical context of the stories has been sheared away, and figures like the wicked stepmother have grown into archetypes of the human psyche, hallowed, inevitable symbols, while figures like the Beast bridegroom have been granted even more positive status. . . ."
Keeping in mind that this book was published in 1994, I was a tiny bit less discouraged by this observation, because perhaps the more recent popularity of fairy tale retellings has to do with the need to view the old stories through less simplistic and more variable lenses.
Yes, we see some retellings (such as Bound) that simply use the fairy tale in a different cultural or historical context.
But do we not also now see stories that recast characters, shift motives, and change perspectives? The popularity of a story like 2004's Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West--the way tween girls in particular embraced this complex view of the fairy godmother and wicked-witch tropes--says something. (Though I'd have to line up all the most popular retellings and date them to state this as a thesis with confidence.)
Here is a favorite quote of mine (actually, Warner is quoting de Tocqueville's 19th century prediction about American arts and letters):
We have also seen, among democratic nations, that the sources of poetry are grand, but not abundant. They are soon exhausted: and poets, not finding the elements of the ideal in what is real and true, abandon them entirely and create monsters.
I do not fear that the poetry of democratic nations will prove insipid, or that it will fly too near the ground; I rather apprehend that it will be forever losing itself in the clouds, and that it will range at last to purely imaginary regions.
I fear that the productions of democratic poets may often be surcharged with immense and incoherent imagery, with exaggerated descriptions and strange creations; and that the fantastic beings of their brain may sometimes make us regret reality.
Enter the epoch of superheroes, sci fi, and the walking dead. . . .
Mod
That's true! I think there's a lot of excellent, subversive fairy tale fictions out there right now.
And I love the quote from Tocqueville as well! Definitely underlined it.
I'm reviving this thread so I'm held a little accountable to finish this book. I inhaled the first half when pregnant a couple of years ago (and called my daughter Sibyl, so it made an impact) and then got bogged down.
Mod
Such a great name! My daughter is almost two so I completely understand about being bogged down, ha. :)
Emily wrote: "I'm reviving this thread so I'm held a little accountable to finish this book. I inhaled the first half when pregnant a couple of years ago ..."Yay! I've had it on my shelf for about 18 months, so thanks for the nudge :)
Into the Forest
Books mentioned in this topic
Bound (other topics)Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West (other topics)
Women Who Run With the Wolves (other topics)
Bitter Greens (other topics)
Beauties, Beasts and Enchantment: Classic French Fairy Tales (other topics)
More...
What has always struck me is how satisfied most men seem to be with how they look (apart from their hair, as they begin to lose it), and how dissatisfied most women are with themselves from quite early on. Women must have a genetic memory of the Mill of Old Wives.