THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Pre-WW2 Conflicts
Should be an interesting book, thanks for the details Jerome.
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Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
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Thanks Jerome, another one that look good.
The US Army Command and General Staff College shows this to its student officers as an interesting example of military writing.It is clear, effective and concise. Also presented was a picture of the large volume the US titled "mobilization order" which was truly a tome. It is widely known and copied, but I thought I'd share it here anyway. I still remember reading it for the first time.
MOBILIZATION ORDER BY EMPEROR HAILE SELASSIE-ABYSSINIA, 1936
Everyone will now be mobilized and all boys old enough to carry a spear will be sent to Addis Ababa.
Married men will take their wives to carry food and to cook. Those without wives will take a woman without a husband. Women with small babies need not go.
The blind, those who cannot walk or for any reason cannot carry a spear are exempted.
Anyone found at home after receipt of this order will be hanged.
A February 2017 release:
by Michael M WalkerDescription:
For seven weeks in 1929, the Republic of China and the Soviet Union battled in Manchuria over control of the Chinese Eastern Railroad. It was the largest military clash between China and a Western power ever fought on Chinese soil, involving more that a quarter million combatants. Michael M. Walker’s The 1929 Sino-Soviet War is the first full account of what UPI’s Moscow correspondent called “the war nobody knew”—a “limited modern war” that destabilized the region's balance of power, altered East Asian history, and sent grim reverberations through a global community giving lip service to demilitarizing in the wake of World War I.
Walker locates the roots of the conflict in miscalculations by Chiang Kai-shek and Chang Hsueh-liang about the Soviets’ political and military power—flawed assessments that prompted China’s attempt to reassert full authority over the CER. The Soviets, on the other hand, were dominated by a Stalin eager to flex some military muscle and thoroughly convinced that war would win much more than petty negotiations. This was in fact, Walker shows, a watershed moment for Stalin, his regime, and his still young and untested military, disproving the assumption that the Red Army was incapable of fighting a modern war. By contrast, the outcome revealed how unprepared the Chinese military forces were to fight either the Red Army or the Imperial Japanese Army, their other primary regional competitor. And yet, while the Chinese commanders proved weak, Walker sees in the toughness of the overmatched infantry a hint of the rising nationalism that would transform China’s troops from a mercenary army into a formidable professional force, with powerful implications for an overconfident Japanese Imperial Army in 1937.
Looks like a book to keep an eye out for!
Wow... by comparison the Soviet Japanese border war of 39 is famous....thx Jerome, can't let any rumble between 1860 - 1945 slip.
From E. R. Hooton's Stalin's Claws: From the Purges to the Winter War: Red Army Operations Before Barbarossa 1937-1941.Some new info to me about the fighting between Soviet and Japanese force at Khalkhin Gol (Nomonhan) during the summer of '39. The Japanese used two squadrons of Italian FIAT BR.20 Cicogna bombers against the Russians. The Allies dubbed these bombers, while in the Japanese AOOB, as "Ruth."
I haven't heard about that before MR9, very interesting, thanks for sharing.
Jerome wrote: "A June 2017 release:
by Philip S Jowett Ordered it. Shame he didn't just cover the entire post-imperial period in one go, but this will be required reading ere it's Miller time (Forgotten Ally: China's World War II, 1937-1945)
Two Cambridge interwar titles of note 
Mussolini in Ethiopia, 1919-1935: The Origins of Fascist Italy's African War by Robert Mallett
The German Army and the Defence of the Reich: Military Doctrine and the Conduct of the Defensive Battle 1918-1939 by Matthias StrohnTurns out the Reichswehr trained more on defence than Blitzkrieg. Comes in handy when the Ivans charge or you're stuck inside a Festung.
Two interesting books, thanks for posting the details Dimitri.
I was saddened to read of the passing of Hugh Thomas on May 6th. He was a distinguished historian of Spain in the Old World and the New. I believe his history of the Spanish Civil War is still considered definitive. The fact it was banned in Franco's Spain did nothing to lessen it's credibility, while boosting its popularity. His political activities were of interest too. He was a university Tory leader, then a Labour candidate for seats in parliament twice (lost both). Next he defected to Mrs. Thatcher and still later went over to the Liberal Democrats. Obit from El Pais:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/08/i...
The Spanish Civil War.
Spanish Civil War is an interesting subject. I interviewed and wrote about many men who fought or flew in that, and their perspectives were interesting.
From Christopher Duggan's Fascist Voices: An Intimate History of Mussolini's Italy.Mussolini and his fascist state rationalized imperialist aggression against Ethiopia by declaring it a mission to bring civilization and an end to barbarism among the benighted Ethiopians. Was it the Ethiopians who wallowed in barbarism? Duggan wrote:
...(Mussolini) sent Badoglio a telegram authorizing him to 'use any kind of gas...even on a massive scale'. Badoglio had in fact already begun employing mustard gas (or 'insecticide' as he euphemistically liked to call it) – he knew of its devastating effects from his time in Libya – and during the next three months around 1,000 heavy bombs filled with the chemical were dropped on enemy positions or, more lethally, sprayed as a vapour from aircraft, killing combatants and non-combatants alike and poisoning rivers and lakes. Shells filled with arsine (a compound of arsenic) were also fired...Inside Italy, there was blanket censorship about chemical weapons and the regime firmly rebutted allegations about their use as defamatory. Only in 1996 did the Ministry of Defence finally admit publicly that mustard gas and arsine had been used in Ethiopia.
I suppose what constitutes barbarism is defined strictly by the practitioners?
The only book on Mussolini that I have read was about his dealings with the Catholic Church. This book sounds like it would be a valuable addition.
Betsy wrote: "The only book on Mussolini that I have read was about his dealings with the Catholic Church. This book sounds like it would be a valuable addition."Betsy: One of the most interesting aspects of Duggan's book, so far, has been the extent and depth of complicity of the Catholic church on behalf of Italian fascism. On many levels, especially among the hierarchy, the church spared little effort in its support of fascism.
That was the basis for the book I read too. It was revealing about the Catholic church's part in keeping him in power, especially in the early days.
Betsy wrote: "That was the basis for the book I read too. It was revealing about the Catholic church's part in keeping him in power, especially in the early days."I should have added above -- the church didn't make a peep about the invasion of Ethiopia or the war crimes committed there.
That is frightening, but then the Pope and the Church seemed to be willing to tolerate many things if the potential for Communism could be defeated.
This book on one incident in Ethiopia may also interest you both:
The Addis Ababa Massacre: Italy's National Shame by Ian Campbell
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This book on one incident in Ethiopia may also interest you both:[book:The Addis Ababa Massacre: Italy's National Shame|325699..."AR: I just now finished reading of this incident in Duggan's book.
I will try and get around to reading this new book as soon as I can. I've read of this incident in a few other books but this new book offers a very detailed account of the events leading up to this incident, the massacre itself and what happened afterwards.
Betsy wrote: "That is frightening, but then the Pope and the Church seemed to be willing to tolerate many things if the potential for Communism could be defeated."Also while the Vatican has a great deal of power, it is isolated and surrounded by Italy. Complaining to loudly might have been seen as a bad idea for the survival of the Church as a whole. Not very moral and certainly not very Christian, but pragmatic.
Certainly that was a consideration, especially after the years when the Catholic Church saw its vast holdings lost to the secular government. The church 'owed' much to Mussolini for its continued existence, but the price was steep.
Betsy wrote: "Certainly that was a consideration, especially after the years when the Catholic Church saw its vast holdings lost to the secular government. The church 'owed' much to Mussolini for its continued e..."When you subvert your moral position and make a deal with a less than stellar secular government, no matter which one, the price will always be steep and it will cost you more than just your gold.
From Christopher Duggan's Fascist Voices: An Intimate History of Mussolini's Italy.In the aftermath of WW II and the fall of Mussolini, Italy experienced a much different reckoning with the legacy of fascism than did Nazi Germany. Duggan wrote:
For millions of other Italians, too, the inclination quietly to forget was overwhelming. The Church strongly sanctioned this impulse, discouraging any systematic reckoning with the past. Ever since the fall of Mussolini it had been calling loudly for forgiveness, pointing out the Christian principle of brotherly love counselled against anger and revenge. It had also been looking to deflect attention from its involvement with the regime by proclaiming the fundamental incompatibility of Christianity with totalitarianism. This meant saying, in effect, that anyone who was a Catholic ipso facto could not be (or, in fact, have been) a fascist and that the best remedy for what Italy had been through was to embrace God and abstain from any witch-hunts.
Excellent advice...if one suspects they would be the target of the witch-hunts.
Italy had no equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials.
There was no set of trials...in which the regime's responsibility for the outbreak of the Second World War, the atrocities committed in Libya, Ethiopia, the Balkans, and elsewhere, and such domestic policies as the racial laws and the persecution of the Jews could be publicly aired and condemned. As a consequence the Republic failed to define itself...clearly and openly in relation to fascism.
In fact, as soon as December 1946, the Movimento Sociale Italiano (MSI) was founded. It was derived directly from Mussolini's Republic of Salo and consisted of unrepentant fascists. In the decades that followed, it typically gained about five percent of national votes and maintained around 30 members of parliament. MSI's successor group, the National Alliance, was a consistent backer of Silvio Berlusconi and achieved 16 percent of the national vote as recently as 1996.
Great bit of information MR9 and something I had not read about before, thanks for taking the time to post the details.
Does any book exist that deals with the learning curve of German and/or Soviet troops in the Spanish Civil War ?It's something hidden in a myriad of offhand phrases about Luftwaffe & Panzer divisions in mainstream books on the blitzkrieg in the West and Barbarossa : "unit X was already good in '39-40 because it had experience in Spain... unit Y had been part of the Condor legion ... the lessons of unit Z were not used by the Red Army..." ...but never elaborated upon whàt these lessons were and how they were learned. Surely there must be something more specific than the classic accounts by the late Hugh Thomas & Anthony Beevor's 1982 successor ?
I will add one of these books to my TBR stack. I visited Ethiopia in April, knowing very little of its history. I was struck immediately that every restaurant included pasta and Italian dishes, which I at first thought strange, until someone explained about Mussolini.
Dimitri wrote: "Does any book exist that deals with the learning curve of German and/or Soviet troops in the Spanish Civil War ?It's something hidden in a myriad of offhand phrases about Luftwaffe & Panzer divis..."
I haven't come across a book specifically on that subject Dimitri bit there is bound to be some hidden away and long forgotten title out there somewhere :)
Even though it doesn't take place around the WW2 time period,what is anyone's opinion on the film, "Breaker Morant"?
I used to really like it.
Joseph wrote: "Even though it doesn't take place around the WW2 time period,what is anyone's opinion on the film, "Breaker Morant"?
I used to really like it."
I liked it, but haven't seen it in 30 years or so.
I saw it when it first came out. The film and the acting were quite good as I remember.
The film is actually quite accurate, I mention that case in my book Four War Boer, and it is a good case study that accompanies my book Occupation and Insurgency, as related to the then existing laws of warfare, primarily The Hague Conventions at that particular times.
I have a copy on DVD that I watch again ever so often. I quite like it and I watch it before any sporting fixture between Australian and England to remind myself why we need to beat the British.Only kidding Geevee :)
I caught on release and can hardly recall it to be honest. Jack Thompson was always a bit of an over actor for me though. Should re-watch one day. These may be of interest.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/...
https://theconversation.com/pardon-me...
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Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
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'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I have a copy on DVD that I watch again ever so often. I quite like it and I watch it before any sporting fixture between Australian and England to remind myself why we need to beat the British.O..."
Outrageous! ;)
Joseph wrote: "Even though it doesn't take place around the WW2 time period,what is anyone's opinion on the film, "Breaker Morant"?
I used to really like it."
I enjoyed it. A very different type of war movie.
Although like others only having seen it when it first came out, several phrases still stick in my head such as the Law of 303. Seems like it's just not one of those flix folks watch over again, perhaps because of not a lot of action, but I still remember parts of it.
Great film. Coincidentally just reading the section in Niall Ferguson’s Empire on the Boer War. Pretty damming of British military incompetence and concentration camps for displaced Boer covilians
carl wrote: "Although like others only having seen it when it first came out, several phrases still stick in my head such as the Law of 303. Seems like it's just not one of those flix folks watch over again, ..."
I remember that line most distinctly as well, seen the movie when it came out, then had in on VHS, then DVD, probably have watched it a dozen times or so since it's been out, but not in a number of years. Had a gritty feel to the movie, and thought the acting top notch.
Read my book Four War Boer, and get a first person perspective. I interviewed the last living participant of the 2nd Anglo Boer war in 1985
carl wrote: "Although like others only having seen it when it first came out, several phrases still stick in my head such as the Law of 303. Seems like it's just not one of those flix folks watch over again, ..."
Shoot Straight you....
Dj wrote: "carl wrote: "Although like others only having seen it when it first came out, several phrases still stick in my head such as the Law of 303. Seems like it's just not one of those flix folks watch..."
....Don't make a mess of it."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Rule 303:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj8N8..."
I always remember the Bible verse Edward Woodward states at the end, Matthew 10:36, "And a man's enemies shall be those of his own household."
I'm starting a look at the Soviet Gov'ts handling of the Ukraine post revolution through the great famine of the early 30s
I've read the first 80 pgs or so and it has been enlightening. So far the author has looked at the Ukraine's bid for independence following the fall of the Tsar and Lenin's response. She says it was a close run thing, if the various Ukrainian independence groups could have got along they very well might have secured their independence. Also in addition to the more well known '30s famine, Lenin also caused one in the '20-21 when he and Stalin confiscated all the grain they could find to feed the rest of Russia.
I wrote about these events as the catalyst for the Ukrainian Freedom Movement under Stepan Bandera. The Ukrainians and even ethnic Russians joined and created 4 additional Waffen SS Divisions and several Luftwaffe flying squadrons during the war all due to their experiences under communism. I made the conclusion based upon my research and interviews that Karl Wolff, Leon Degrelle, Otto Kumm and many others were correct in their assessments that up to 20 million Soviets including Vlasov could have been converted and used against Stalin had Nazi policy not been what it was.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Fleet that Fought Itself: The Spanish Navy and the Civil War 1936–39 (other topics)Spain Betrayed: The Soviet Union in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
Spain Betrayed: The Soviet Union in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
Mac-Pap: Memoir of a Canadian in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
Mac-Pap: Memoir of a Canadian in the Spanish Civil War (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Leonard R. Heinz (other topics)Jonathan Whitehead (other topics)
Charles Stephenson (other topics)
Harald Jähner (other topics)
Greg Growden (other topics)
More...
Description:
In October 1935 Fascist Italy invaded independent Ethiopia. The Italians had planes, high explosive, and mustard gas. The Ethiopians had swords and spears. Emperor Haile Selassie needed expert outside help. What he got was a crazy gang of mercenaries who could barely shoot straight and were further to the right than Mussolini. Americans posing as fake French counts, Fascist Belgian mercenaries, an African-American pilot duo known as the Black Eagle and the Brown Condor (they hated each other), a Cuban veteran of three failed far-right coups, an Austrian Nazi doctor, Swedish soldiers who preferred fighting communism, an alcoholic English dropout. Haile Selassie's international state support was equally disreputable. Hitler backed Selassie as part of a plot to grab back the Rhineland and Japanese secret societies pushed a penniless Tokyo princess into marriage with an Ethiopian prince. Together, this bizarre foreign legion tried to save Ethiopia from Fascism. In his own fast-paced style, Christopher Othen demonstrates how the invasion of Ethiopia almost turned into a worldwide race war.