Pre-WW2 Conflicts

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Hi Tytti, I think we all appreciate your comments and book suggestions, different things are what most of the members look for anyhow :)

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Tytti wrote: "I was just thinking that I hardly ever comment other posts but then mention books most of you can't read... We do have lots of WWII literature here but not the books you talk about. And when I trie..."

Its a shame you can't find a good book to read on the Pacific theatre Tytti as it saw some of the most deadliest and hardest fighting in WW2.

[Tytti]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Its a shame you can't find a good book to read on the Pacific theatre Tytti as it saw some of the most deadliest and hardest fighting in WW2."

Hah, it's not that I couldn't find (well I haven't really tried), it's just that I am not really interested in fighting per se (hih, that makes a dirty word in Finnish), especially on the Pacific...

[Manray9]

Tytti wrote: "I was just thinking that I hardly ever comment other posts but then mention books most of you can't read... We do have lots of WWII literature here but not the books you talk about. And when I trie..."

Tytti: I think there are fewer general or comprehensive histories of the war in the Pacific than for the war in Europe. The Pacific War hasn't had its Hastings or Beevor. The closest I can think of is John Toland. Although slightly dated, I would recommend:

The Rising Sun by John Toland

or

Pacific Crucible by Ian Toll.

[Manray9]

Tytti wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Its a shame you can't find a good book to read on the Pacific theatre Tytti as it saw some of the most deadliest and hardest fighting in WW2."

Hah, it's not that I couldn't f..."

Ahhh, a different situation. Maybe personal stories would be better, such as works by Eugene Sledge, Bob Leckie or William Manchester?

[Tytti]

Well, probably not, I am not that interested in those either, unless they are really special. Besides, finding them would be difficult, I don't even own any reader thingy so I could download them. It's just that we don't have any connection to that theatre. My point of view is too different. I would probably start from the Sino-Japanese War(s) and its politics anyway, because I have some interest in Japan, mainly because of Martial Arts.

[Manray9]

Tytti wrote: "Well, probably not, I am not that interested in those either, unless they are really special. Besides, finding them would be difficult, I don't even own any reader thingy so I could download them. ..."

For a meaningful and instructive read, try:

The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang. It should be easier to find.

[Tytti]

Maybe someday. I know enough of it to make me unsure if I want to read about it. For the same reason I don't read books about the holocaust, either. With those countries I would have to start from the 19th century, we didn't study them that much in school, just the basics. I think...

[Chin Joo]

Tytti wrote: "With those countries I would have to start from the 19th century..."

The Pacific is a far away place so it's not surprising that you find little connection. I am Asian and have only recently started exploring the history of WW2 in Asia myself.

But I have always been interested in the European Theatres. Not because they are directly related to me, but I've always been fascinated by why things went so wrong in history. That's why even the Peloponnesian War is interesting.

There is however one similarity between us, we have to go back to some logical starting point. And interestingly, I think you are right about starting from the Sino-Japanese Wars if one wants to really know that part of history.

[Tytti]

Chin Joo wrote: "But I have always been interested in the European Theatres. Not because they are directly related to me, but I've always been fascinated by why things went so wrong in history. That's why even the Peloponnesian War is interesting."

I have enough wars to study in our own history, Swedish kings sure liked to fight to the last Finn... (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo... in Finnish but you get my meaning :-)) But personally I have to find something interesting before I get interested in one part of the history.

And yeah, it was just a guess after some googling but it's close enough for it to have some effect. To study Finland in WWII you would have to start only from the turn of the century, or a bit earlier.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is another new book looking at American-Japanese relations prior to the Second World War:

by Sidney L Pash
Description:
From 1899 until the American entry into World War II, U.S. presidents sought to preserve China's territorial integrity in order to guarantee American businesses access to Chinese markets -- a policy famously known as the "open door." Before the Russo-Japanese War in 1904, Americans saw Japan as the open door's champion; but by the end of 1905, Tokyo had replaced St. Petersburg as its greatest threat. For the next thirty-six years, successive U.S. administrations worked to safeguard China and contain Japanese expansion on the mainland.

The Currents of War reexamines the relationship between the United States and Japan and the casus belli in the Pacific through a fresh analysis of America's central foreign policy strategy in Asia. In this ambitious and compelling work, Sidney Pash offers a cautionary tale of oft-repeated mistakes and miscalculations. He demonstrates how continuous economic competition in the Asia-Pacific region heightened tensions between Japan and the United States for decades, eventually leading to the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.

Pash's study is the first full reassessment of pre--World War II American-Japanese diplomatic relations in nearly three decades. It examines not only the ways in which U.S. policies led to war in the Pacific but also how this conflict gave rise to later confrontations, particularly in Korea and Vietnam. Wide-ranging and meticulously researched, this book offers a new perspective on a significant international relationship and its enduring consequences.

[happy]

Tytti wrote: "I think I am having my own discussions here because my books and all of yours differ so much...

But anyhow, another book I might even find because it has been reprinted: [bookcover:Tõde Eestist, L..."

Tytti - I also enjoy your comments and I've learned alot about the Winter War from you!

[Tytti]

happy wrote: "I also enjoy your comments and I've learned alot about the Winter War from you! "

Thanks, nice to hear. I don't even remember telling about it a lot. I think it's rather straightforward and simple...

[Dj]

Chin Joo wrote: "Tytti wrote: "With those countries I would have to start from the 19th century..."

The Pacific is a far away place so it's not surprising that you find little connection. I am Asian and have only ..."

This history of Modern Japan, probably could best be started at the arrival of the Black Ships and the Meji Reformation. Pretty much everything changed then.

For myself I started reading about the Pacific first due to my interest in Naval Battles. It can pretty much be said that the War in the Pacific had the bulk of the major Naval Action. The land aspects of the fighting are far and a way different from the Naval actions. In a very real sense the war in the Pacific was much more brutal than that in the ETO, even counting the viciousness of the war in Russia.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Certainly the British & Commonwealth troops in Burma felt no quarter need be given or expected following the retreats of 1941-44, and the treatment meted out to military and civilians alike by the Japanese military during that time and as they recaptured territory in the the advances of 44-45.

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Certainly the British & Commonwealth troops in Burma felt no quarter need be given or expected following the retreats of 1941-44, and the treatment meted out to military and civilians alike by the ..."

I know naval intelligence officers begged U.S. Marines to take some prisoners during the island campaigns in the Pacific. Not many Japanese were willing to surrender and those few who were willing often didn't get much chance. Martin Clemens in --

Alone on Guadalcanal

wrote of finding a Japanese medic's diary in which the diarist discussed an anatomy lecture given to the troops using a live U.S. Marine as the specimen for dissection.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

As Geevee mentioned, it was rare for Australians to take Japanese prisoners. An interesting book looking at Australian attitudes to enemy soldiers in WWII is this title:

by Mark D. Johnston

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "As Geevee mentioned, it was rare for Australians to take Japanese prisoners. An interesting book looking at Australian attitudes to enemy soldiers in WWII is this title:

[bookcover:Fighting the En..."

Looks like another addition to the old TBR list.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

It certainly does, thanks Rick.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Anything to help your TBR pile :)

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Anything to help your TBR pile :)"

A surprise -- it seems a local library has it!

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

It never ceases to amaze me the stock holdings of people's libraries across the world. A book that isn't a mass market subject about Australians and Japanese in a library in the USA.

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "It never ceases to amaze me the stock holdings of people's libraries across the world. A book that isn't a mass market subject about Australians and Japanese in a library in the USA."

In fact, five libraries within 90 miles have copies.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

You have to love your local library eh! Here are a few reviews that I found on the book in question:


"[The book's] great strength is that it shows how vividly personal war is when soldiers are allowed to speak for themselves." - The Weekend Australian

" … an excellent and very highly recommended book. On one level, a good history of Australian conflicts in World War II. On another level, the very personal experiences of Australians in battle. On yet another level, a study of group Australian behaviour in times of conflict and crisis." - Law Society Journal

"Johnston has made an important contribution to our understanding of the ways in which Australian soldiers perceived their different enemies in the Second World War." - International History Review

"He offers the ideas and observations of ordinary soldiers on a matter commonly overlooked in war histories that focus on strategy or on the narrative of campaigns." - Contemporary Pacific

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "It never ceases to amaze me the stock holdings of people's libraries across the world. A book that isn't a mass market subject about Australians and Japanese in a library in the USA..."

And none in the 36 in my local county area...

[Manray9]

Geevee wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "It never ceases to amaze me the stock holdings of people's libraries across the world. A book that isn't a mass market subject about Australians and Japanese in a li..."

Odd indeed, but we have access to several universities through our local public libraries.

[Dj]

Manray9 wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Certainly the British & Commonwealth troops in Burma felt no quarter need be given or expected following the retreats of 1941-44, and the treatment meted out to military and civilian..."

An ugly fact, but I would say it is somewhat mitigated by experience. You only have to accept a surrender and have someone pop a grenade when they get close enough or have soldiers behind them shooting at you when you stand up to collect them before you just assume it is a ploy.

[Jerome]

A September release that I'm sure some of you will want to check out:

by Jeff Pearce
Description:
It was the war that changed everything, and yet it’s been mostly forgotten: in 1935, Italy invaded Ethiopia. It dominated newspaper headlines and newsreels. It inspired mass marches in Harlem, a play on Broadway, and independence movements in Africa. As the British Navy sailed into the Mediterranean for a white-knuckle showdown with Italian ships, riots broke out in major cities all over the United States.

Italian planes dropped poison gas on Ethiopian troops, bombed Red Cross hospitals, and committed atrocities that were never deemed worthy of a war crimes tribunal. But unlike the many other depressing tales of Africa that crowd book shelves, this is a gripping thriller, a rousing tale of real-life heroism in which the Ethiopians come back from near destruction and win.

Tunnelling through archive records, tracking down survivors still alive today, and uncovering never-before-seen photos, Jeff Pearce recreates a remarkable era and reveals astonishing new findings. He shows how the British Foreign Office abandoned the Ethiopians to their fate, while Franklin Roosevelt had an ambitious peace plan that could have changed the course of world history—had Chamberlain not blocked him with his policy on Ethiopia. And Pearce shows how modern propaganda techniques, the post-war African world, and modern peace movements all were influenced by this crucial conflict—a war in Africa that truly changed the world.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Yep, that will be one for me, nice find Jerome!

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Me too!

[Jerome]

A February 2015 release that may also be of interest:

by Richard Rhodes
Description:
From the Pulitzer Prize-winning and bestselling author of The Making of the Atomic Bomb:the remarkable story of the Spanish Civil War through the eyes of the reporters, writers, artists, doctors, and nurses who witnessed it.

The Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) inspired and haunted an extraordinary number of exceptional artists and writers, including Pablo Picasso, Joan Miro, Martha Gellhorn, Ernest Hemingway, George Orwell, and John Dos Passos. The idealism of the cause;defending democracy from fascism at a time when Europe was darkening toward another world war; and the brutality of the conflict drew from them some of their best work: Guernica, For Whom the Bell Tolls, Homage to Catalonia, The Spanish Earth.

The war spurred breakthroughs in military and medical technology as well. New aircraft, new weapons, new tactics and strategy all emerged in the intense Spanish conflict. Indiscriminate destruction raining from the sky became a dreaded reality for the first time. Progress also arose from the horror: the doctors and nurses who volunteered to serve with the Spanish defenders devised major advances in battlefield surgery and front-line blood transfusion. In those ways, and in many others, the Spanish Civil War served as a test bed for World War II, and for the entire twentieth century.

From the life of John James Audubon to the invention of the atomic bomb, readers have long relied on Richard Rhodes to explain, distill, and dramatize crucial moments in history. Now, he takes us into battlefields and bomb shelters, into the studios of artists, into the crowded wards of war hospitals, and into the hearts and minds of a rich cast of characters to show how the ideological, aesthetic, and technological developments that emerged in Spain changed the world forever.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Sounds interesting, thanks for posting the details Jerome.

[Howard]

I noted earlier that someone included a review of a book about US policies leading us to war vs Japan. I have not read it. Almost all wars in history have been to take territory or resources or to impose its systems on others, either political or religious. The US has not waged war for territorial gain for many decades. The discussion of the Pacific theatre is interesting in that the US has projected a naval presence there for the purpose of its national interests, not territorial expansion. But if you google Strategic and Critical Material Shortfalls you will find in the Department of Defense a branch that lists what the US needs to continue its current existence that it does not have or does not have in sufficient quantity and must trade for. Free trade, in particular access to ocean trade routes, is important to US policy. Of all the battles that are written about, the most important necessity for the vast majority of them is logistical, but it is the least interesting to the average reader. No warplan, however brilliant, can be executed without the wherewithal to do the job. One item desperately short in the US is Chromium. During the cold war we could try to get it from the Soviet Union or South Africa. When apartied became a hot button issue, it created a challenge, but few people knew all the details.
I am concerned that while there are folks interested in learning about history, which is rife with warfare,
that the truth can take some effort to discern. I know of a history professor who insisted that the Zimmerman telegram was a British hoax that successfully helped to induce the US to declare war on Germany in WWI. I was able to find historical evidence that Zimmerman, the German war minister, openly discussed it after the war. He did send it and the British did intercept it and used it skillfully in how they revealed it to President Wilson, but they did not invent it.
I mentioned earlier in a comment that I would not recommend wasting time reading any book on the Battle of Midway except " Shattered Sword" by J Parshall. He convincingly proves all previous accounts seriously tainted with inaccuracies repeated over and over. The US took the postwar testimony of the Japanese officer in charge of flight operations as fact because it was what we wanted to hear and he was loyally covering for his commanding admiral. But the mistakes of that admiral were well explained by differences in the philosophy of carrier construction, deployment and operations previously given little attention.
Samuel Morrisons Two-Ocean War is a classic and gives a picture of the scale of US Naval operations in WWII, but it is old (same caveat about Midway.)
While a student at the Advanced Officers Class at the Artillery School in 1972 I had to take a graduate level class at the local University and also read a book on a battle from a limited list and do a report. I chose the battle of Attu because I did not know much about it at the time. I could not find much information at all back then about the battle itself, but there were many references to historical documents about the intent of the Japanese to eventually occupy the Aleutian Islands long before WWII. Some of these included the careful surveying of the waters in the area which are particularly treacherous due to small islands and rocks and fog. When the US flew the China Clipper across the Pacific it was hailed as a notable achievement. Japan lauded the US and expressed a desire to duplicate the feat but in a more conservative approach, wanting to stick closer to land in a great circle route, so they asked the US for a base in the Aleutians for a weather station. This was found to be intended for military advantage and many accounts from individuals attest to Japan coveting the region for its seafood bounty. And, of course, early in WWII the Japanese occupied Kiska and Attu.
The fact that Japanese expansion from the Aleutians to the Marianna Marshall and Gilbert Islands, the Bismark Archipeligo, Borneo, Indonesia, China and even all the way to India might indicate their ambitious plans and reveal their connection to American policies
as incidental. You Aussies are aware the Japanese had plans to invade your country. Yes, we imbargoed raw materials to attempt to get them out of China. Everyone knows about the oil. The Chinese, our ally, had to petition hard to get us to stop selling scrap metal to Japan, who was manufacturing bombs and weapons from it to use against them. Then there is Nanking and all that. And today it is a concern what is taught, or not taught,in Japan about that era, but it is easily overlooked if one compares it to the goings-on in the madrasas.
So everyone read. Read discerningly. Share.Discuss. S

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

This 2013 publication (I think it may be an expanded and revised book of an 1988 edition) should be of interest to some of the group member here:

The Man Called Brown Condor: The Forgotten History of an African American Fighter Pilot by Thomas E. Simmons
Reviews:
“The story of John C. Robinson, born in segregated Mississippi at the turn of the century, and his remarkable story of not just becoming a pilot but rising to become the commander of the Ethiopian Air Force during the Italo-Ethiopian War of 1935.” - Publishers Weekly

“Simmons spent over 20 years researching the remarkable life of John D. Robinson, who rose from segregationist Mississippi to become a distinguished pilot, founder of the Tuskegee Institute’s school of aviation, a bold defender of Ethiopia during the 1935 Italian invasion, and, finally, founder of the Ethiopian Air Force.” - Library Journal

“An inspiring affirmation that celebrates the old adage that where there’s a will, there’s a way, even against seemingly impossible odds.” - Kirkus Reviews

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I'm about to start this latest release on the Italian invasion of Ethiopa. It has picked up some good reviews so I'm looking forward to it.


Prevail: The Inspiring Story of Ethiopia's Victory over Mussolini's Invasion, 1935-1941 by Jeff Pearce

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This 2013 publication (I think it may be an expanded and revised book of an 1988 edition) should be of interest to some of the group member here:

[bookcover:The Man Called Brown Condor: The Forgot..."

Have to get a copy of this one.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Should be a book that would interest you I think Mike :)

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Still toying with buying this one AR.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

My copy of this one arrived and it looks interesting. Have to clear a space on the schedule for it:

The Man Called Brown Condor: The Forgotten History of an African American Fighter Pilot

[Jerome]

A September release:

by Jorge M. Reverte
Description:
Jorge M.Reverte’s new book offers a fresh analysis of the strategic way in which the Nationalists and the Republicans fought the Spanish Civil War. Applying the traditional theory of the Art of War to the conflict, Reverte examines the methods, ideology, and results of the strategic, operational, and tactical methods employed by both factions in Spain from 1936 to 1939. Drawing on both the massive historiography of the war as well as extensive examination of primary sources, including military archives, this book is a welcome addition to the literature on the Spanish Civil War.

[Jerome]

And a March 2016 release:

by Adam Hochschild
Description:
For three crucial years in the 1930s, the Spanish Civil War dominated headlines in America and around the world, as volunteers flooded to Spain to help its democratic government fight off a fascist uprising led by Francisco Franco and aided by Hitler and Mussolini. Today we're accustomed to remembering the war through Hemingway’s For Whom the Bell Tolls and Robert Capa’s photographs. But Adam Hochschild has discovered some less familiar yet far more compelling characters who reveal the full tragedy and importance of the war: a fiery nineteen-year-old Kentucky woman who went to wartime Spain on her honeymoon, a Swarthmore College senior who was the first American casualty in the battle for Madrid, a pair of fiercely partisan, rivalrous New York Times reporters who covered the war from opposites sides, and a swashbuckling Texas oilman with Nazi sympathies who sold Franco almost all his oil — at reduced prices, and on credit.   It was in many ways the opening battle of World War II, and we still have much to learn from it. Spain in Our Hearts is Adam Hochschild at his very best.

[Colin]

In my book Four War Boer, Pieter Krueler was a mercenary in Spain, hired by the Germans, but then changed his mind and worked with the basques. Interesting perspective.

[John]

Germany Ascendant: The Eastern Front 1915 by Prit Buttar is up soon for me. It's a follow up to his book Collision of Empires: The War on the Eastern Front in 1914. Excellent, comprehensive histories of a less well known theatre of the war.

[Betsy]

Would love to read these two books. Hopefully, some day I will.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I've got both of Prit Buttar's WWI books to read, soon I hope :)

[Dimitri]

John wrote: "Germany Ascendant: The Eastern Front 1915 by Prit Buttar is up soon for me. It's a follow up to his book [book:Collision of Empires: The War on the Eastern Front in..."

I keep receiving mixed signals from online reviewers about these Buttars, mostly about the one-sided origin of sources or out of Osprey-scepticism. But WWI Russian Front books are so thin on the ground that I'm always keen for more, even tough we live in better times than 1975, when Norman Stone was the only voice.
So...are they really up to standard ?

[John]

Dimitri wrote: "John wrote: "Germany Ascendant: The Eastern Front 1915 by Prit Buttar is up soon for me. It's a follow up to his book [book:Collision of Empires: The War on the Eas..."

There's niggles with everything, but his 1914 book gave the fullest account I've read of, for example, the invasions of Serbia. As you say, what's the competition? Stone's book is good but short and heavily weighted towards the 1914 fighting.

[Manray9]

I remain impressed by Stone's --

The Eastern Front, 1914-1917

[Jerome]

A June 2017 release:

by Philip S Jowett
Description:
After years of the civil conflict in China since the fall of the Imperial system in 1911 the victory of the Nationalists in 1928 should have heralded a period of peace. Instead the next 9 years were to see wars, revolts and revolutions that took the lives of millions of soldiers and civilians. Although officially at peace, the country was torn apart by foreign invasion, civil war and class conflict that often went unreported. Full-scale war with the Soviet Union and Japan cost China territory and prestige while civil conflict tore Chinese society apart. Clandestine warfare was waged by Japan during the 1920s, which led to an invasion and occupation of Manchuria in 1931. The Nationalist Government waged war on several fronts, fighting the invading Japanese while being obsessed with defeating the Chinese Communists. There were an astounding number of conflicts during this period involving China and many are little known, even to some students of Chinese military history.

[Chin Joo]

Thank you Jerome. I'll surely be looking out for it.