The Lord of the Rings The Lord of the Rings question


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J.K Rowling plagiarized Tolkien!!!
Michael Michael (last edited Sep 02, 2013 06:14PM ) Sep 02, 2013 04:42PM
I was watching the lord of the rings the other day and saw that jk rowling copied many many things.These things being identical between the lord of the rings and harry potter,so I was thinking that jk rowling plagiarized from it.And CS Lewis author of Narnia is one of his favorite authors.
Here are some examples:

The Ring/Horcrux
The Ring having a piece of the dark lords soul/Horcruxes carry a piece of the dark lords soul
It's extremely hard to destroy a ring/It's extremely hard to destroy a horcrux(Ok let's just say the ring and horcruxes are literally the exact same thing)
Ring makes dark Lord immortal/Horcrux makes dark Lord immortal
Dark Lord/Dark Lord(I mean honestly jk had to take the same word pathetic)
The dead bodies that Frodo sees in the lake/The resurrected bodies harry sees in the half blood Prince
Galadriel future seeing bowl/Pensieve
Sam/Ron
Merry and Pippin/The Weasly brothers
Gandalf/Dumbledore(This has bothered me for years JK completely copied this character to a t)
A Dumbledore is a creature in the lord of the rings
Destroying ring,destroys dark Lord/Same with Voldemort with destroying horcruxes
The spiders
Wormtongue/Wormtail
Éowyn/Ginny
Ringwraiths,Dementors
The council of elrond/The order of the Phoenix
Frodo/Harry
Merry saying about his friends "They cannot fight this war on your own"/Scrimgour saying to harry "You cannot fight this war on your own Mr potter"
Harry being a horcrux/Frodos behavior with the ring
Gandalfs light with his staff/Lumos
Quest for the horcruxes/Quest for the ring
Jrr Tolkien lived in the UK so does rowling lotr is a highly popular book so rowling muster have read it
THREE HEADED DOG IN THE HOBBIT,THREE HEADED DOG IN HARRY POTTER
Anglo Saxon dining hall in rohan,the great hall
Gandalf battling the fire balrog in the dwarf mine,Dumbledore defeating the dead bodies in a cave/mine
I AM ABSOLUTLY DISGUSTED THAT JK ROWLIBG LITERALLY COPIED AND PAST GANDALF TO CREATE DUMBLEDORE,A DUMBLEDORE IS EVEN A CREATURE IN LOTR
Gandalf mentoring Frodo,DUMBLEDORE mentoring harry
Old man willow/The womping willow
People always talk about how Cassandra Clare plagiarized harry potter which I can't see,but people never say that jk rowling directly plagiarized the lord of the rings and made billions off it,for shame

Dear harry potter fans:
This is not a discussion it's a fact and statement so if you won't accept it or don't agree keep it to yourself



Me seems you forgot JKR's greatest crime, she even used the same language as Tolkien to write her Harry Potter books in!
Now, that's a stunning case of plagiarism... takes chutzpah to do that! :D


...and Tolkein got many of his ideas from Beowulf. I don't think people can steal "dark lords" or "magic rings." There are dark lords in Star Wars, Legend, the Wheel of Time books, etc. There are cursed rings in The Volsunga Saga (an ancient Norse tale), in the Bible (Solomon had one), in the tales of Merlin. In Arthurian legend, Sir Perceval of Galles, Perceval steals a ring that prevents him from being killed. These are literary ideas that precede Tolkien by hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

U 25x33
Walven Walker To all those saying that LOTR was a copy in the first place, makes JKR looks even worse! I mean she copied off a copy!!
Dec 19, 2018 12:14AM · flag

It's difficult for me to take seriously anyone who claims to have studied plagiarism in depth but does not seem to know that plagiarism does not involve ideas or concepts. It involves direct copying of another person's work. You cannot copyright an idea - this is why recipes themselves are not the basis for copyright claims but the explanation of the process is. It's also why all those movies on Lifetime seems to have the same basic plot. Derivative? Perhaps. Tolkien himself derived his ideas from others, just like other writers do. The fact that there are similarities (minus this strange claim of yours about a Dumbledore as a character appearing in LOTR) is not plagiarism unless you can show where JKR copied, word for word, passages from Tolkien's work.


Michael wrote: "Dear harry potter fans:
This is not a discussion it's a fact and statement so if you won't accept it or don't agree keep it to yourself"


This is a discussion forum, so if you don't want discussion, keep your thoughts to yourself.


I'm afraid that I have to agree with the idea that much of Harry Potter is heavily based on Lord of the Rings. It may not be plagiarism but the influences are undeniable.


Michael wrote: "I was watching the lord of the
rings..." and blah blah blah blah.

Read the books dumbass.


Matthew (last edited Sep 03, 2013 11:33PM ) Sep 03, 2013 11:29PM   3 votes
Michael wrote: "I was watching the lord of the rings the other day and saw that jk rowling copied many many things.These things being identical between the lord of the rings and harry potter,so I was thinking that..."

I'm afraid that's not how things work around here, Michael. Just because you believe it doesn't make it a fact. And it sure doesn't mean you can say there is to be no debate. This is an open forum, not a soap box, so you don't make the rules. And if you don't want a discussion, what's the point of starting a topic thread in the first place?

What's more, did you read the books? You said you just watched the Lord of the Rings? If you're going to make the case for plagiarism, don't you think you should actually read the source material? Speaking of which, where does a Dumbledore appear in LOTR? I've read the entire series and I sure don't remember one.


deleted member Sep 16, 2013 09:49AM   2 votes
Not to beat up on an author, but the writer of The Tolkien Bestiary, David Day, is not known for his scholastic research. In any conversation with other Tolkien fans who are serious students, that writer's works appear near the bottom if at all. Sad really; and yes, I've read a couple of his books, including The Illustrated Encyclopedia and Tolkien's Ring. Tolkien himself stated he did not "borrow" ideas from Wagner (it's in the Letters and sorry, not at home to get the pager #) but Day claims he did.

So, saying that Rowling 'plagiarized' is really inaccurate as well. Ideas are not copyright materials; WORDS are but only in context. She did not quote any of Tolkien's works either directly or indirectly, so there is no plagiarization.


Michael wrote: "Naiya wrote: "Michael wrote: "You can read about it in wiki also in the Hobbit"

Are you saying you can't support your claim? I'm always happy to back up all my claims with links or research. The p..."


Correct me if I'm wrong, but The Tolkien Bestiary was not written by Tolkien - it was a reference put together later by a different author compiling all the creatures and mentions that occurred across all of Tolkien's work. This work includes the obscure poem called Errantry that talks about the insect creature called Dumbledore.

It's possible Rowling had read the Bestiary (or Errantry), though unlikely since she hadn't read The Hobbit as of the writing, but I don't see what that might prove.

The point and the reason I zeroed in on the origin of "Dumbledore" was to point out how easily a real connection (Tolkien's 'dumbledore', the 18C word, and Rowling's use of the word as a name) becomes the exaggerated platform for an argument. And, therefore, undermines the argument itself!

Pedantic of me? Maybe. But we're talking Tolkien, and from everything I've read about him and his world, he appreciated an attention to details.


Kaylen (last edited Oct 17, 2017 01:14PM ) Oct 17, 2017 01:13PM   1 vote
I cannot tell you how many plagiaristic similarities I tallied up while watching The Lord of the Rings. I'm a long-time Harry Potter fan, so I mean no offense to the story itself. It was just a little bit depressing seeing how much Rowling actually ripped off (Gandalf and Dumbledore being the most obvious, I mean, come on! That was weak). I found most of the ones that you listed here (Galadriel's bowl and the Pensieve was another easy one), but I didn't catch the Inferi in the cave in Half-Blood Prince in relation to the Dead Marshes. This was really, really interesting. I guess all I can say is that The Lord of the Rings is a good thing to admire (as I do, and very much), not rip off of.


Cerberus is a creature out of Greek mythology, not an invention of Tolkein's. Anyone can use it, and many have.

Tolkein borrowed heavily from Anglo-Saxon myth and legend, as well as other mythological sources. He'd laugh at you for suggesting that someone else mining the same sources is "plagiarism."

Rings, magic and otherwise, have figured prominently in myth, legend, and folklore, basically forever. This not an idea that Tolkein "owned" in any sense at all.

I see no reason at all to suppose that an educated English woman couldn't have gotten the word dumbledore from the same source Tolkein got it from. Inany case, her USE of it is completely different, and that's not plagiarism.

I could go on at great length but there is clearly no point. I'll leave you with one final comment: The world was not created in the order you discovered it.


The first guy who drew on a cave wall probably ranted and raged about the plagiarism by the second guy. Either that or he realized there are only so many stories to tell. The trick is making them more interesting than the last one.


michael is just being stupid lets be honest. everything in fantasy literature is centered around mythological creatures and ancient epics which is why they all seem to have similar plots and archetypes of characters.
Plagarism is copying word for word which rowling DOES NOT DO. i have read lotr and hp multiple times and there is no copyright infringement on rowlings part.
by the way ringwraiths and dementors are not the same thing neither is the one ring and voldys horcruxes they are exceedingly different in how they operate.
for one dementors suck all the happy memories out of you and the only cure is a patronus and chocolate- rowling got the idea from her battle with depression.
ringwraiths are servents of saurons who do his bidding and hunt for the ring for him in the lotr books and fight against his enemies. they create two different feelings within the characters they come across. they only have two things in common: they bring fear in whoever talks about them and they have the same designer of clothing lol.
neither author used original ideas, its how they went about using them in terms of their stories.
fantasy lit. has and always be full of similarities.


Michael wrote: "I was watching the lord of the rings the other day and saw that jk rowling copied many many things.These things being identical between the lord of the rings and harry potter,so I was thinking that..." You are absolutely right.


Naiya wrote: "Also, what scene had the three-headed dog in The Hobbit?

Edit: Okay, you have to be trolling, because I'm sure I'd remember there being a Cerberus in The Hobbit."


I believe there was,but the last time I read it was 2 years ago and there's a Cerberus in the movie adaptation so I could have sworn if I'm not right.I find it curiously your not trying to say the ring/The horcrux was not a direct copy when it is one of the worst plagiarism


Late to post this... but I see quite a heated discussion here... Lets just say, JKR got inspiration from JRR's works... its common... you can find many similarities in books of the same genre... but you'd agree Harry Potter is unique in its own way as well...

Getting inspired isn't a crime :)


This whole conversation is amusing. Books will be similar to each other no matter what. Nothing is entirely original anymore and stories are often recycled into new ones with different plot and characters. That's just how it works.


Michael (last edited Sep 02, 2013 06:15PM ) Sep 02, 2013 05:56PM   0 votes
Would you like to comment on any other copies I listed? Besides the same one you mentioned


And the two of you never thought to mention the ring and horcruxes which is a direct copy and there is a whole list other then that


I am a huge fan of both Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings and I have to say that I don't think they're that similar. The Lord of the Rings takes place in a mythic past which is like another world, while Harry Potter takes place in modern day England. Most of the things that you said were similar I don't really agree are that similar... for example, the Weasley brothers aren't that similar to Merry and Pippin. And I find it very sexist to say that just because Eowyn and Ginny are both strong female characters, it means they're the same. Yes, Gandalf and Dumbledore are similar, but once again, not exactly the same. I don't get why no one pointed out the terrible mistakes that Dumbledore made, like befriending Grindelwald, and how this makes him unique. We get no indication of Gandalf doing anything like that. I absolutely love both characters and partly because they remind me of each other- but they're both different as well. The only thing that I can definitely say I think was copied was the saying Dark Lord and I don't see that as that much of a big deal. The books have a completely different feel and although Harry Potter is in many ways very derivative (so is the lord of the rings) Rowling brought her influences together in such a clever way and made something completely new and I daresay original out of them. There are also some elements of the story that are very original and creative. Was there a Hogwarts in the Lord of the Rings? Um, no. And the now much-copied story line of a main character who doesn't know they're special or magical also originated from Harry Potter. Argue all you like, but you can't say that Frodo's story was the same. I greatly admire both series and writers, and they have both created very complex, well-structured, comprehensive and believable worlds, which are actually very different from each other. Yes, both series are very derivative, but this just makes the worlds in them even more believable.


I've read both series and there is minimal similarity.
Harry Potter is the last series I expected anyone to say that is a copy, because the story is so full of different characters and invented things.


Honestly, I think that in a way, every fantasy book has a ton of elements that are nearly exactly the same as LOTR. But seriously: the fact that JK Rowling basically EXACTLY COPIED LOTR, made millions off of it, and now kids read Harry Potter - which by the way I couldn't even FINISH because the last book is so boring - and say it's the most amazing book ever, and completely ignore/despise Lord of the Rings... It just makes me want to go back in time, rip out the pages of Rowling's notebook, and pretend nobody had even TRIED to do such a thing.


Michael, you are right that LOTR and Harry Potter has many similarities. Even the underlying theme of good vs evil is the same. But it's a work of art. And I read this very pertinent quote from Bill Watterson (creator of Calvin and Hobbes) that every artist learns through imitation. Even Tolkien learned through Nordic and Teutonic legends.

I would like you to read this answer to the question: Is Harry Potter influenced by The Lord of the Rings?

It is not plagiarism in the slightest. For your work to be plagiarism, you have to copy someone else's work exactly and present it as your own.

Tolkien himself borrowed like crazy -- that's why his books are so cool. They are founded upon Nordic and Teutonic legend. The tale of Turin Turambar is borrowed from the Finnish hero Kullervo from their Kalevala legends. Tolkien borrowed far more heavily than Rowling did, as he would be the first to admit.

You can't write fantasy after 1954 and not be influenced by Tolkien. But Rowling writes in a tradition of wizards that goes back to Merlin. She was much more imaginative than most. Who else has kids carrying a magical blue fire around in a jam jar?! (Written by Ernest W. Adams)


I definelty agree, about the Dumbledore and Gandalf thing. It was a practical insult, when Gandalf is clearly better. A lot or writes copy ideas from Tolkien, because he is probably the best fantasy writer there is. But the fact that harry potter fans think that harry potter is better, is like throwing a brick into Tolkien's face. Playjerism!


Naiya wrote: "Michael wrote: "You can read about it in wiki also in the Hobbit"

Are you saying you can't support your claim? I'm always happy to back up all my claims with links or research. The poem that uses ..."


I meant a hobbit poem but changed it to the Tolkien beastiary for a more firm reference


Well, something I found similar between the two books was in The Two Towers Faramir refers to Sauron as "He who we do not name" and "The Unnamed." People in Harry Potter often refer to Voldemort as "He who must not be named." I don't think JKR plagiarized Tolkien, or else whole paragraphs would be copied. But it is definitely possible she derived some ideas from Tolkien.


Michael (last edited Sep 02, 2013 07:22PM ) Sep 02, 2013 07:22PM   0 votes
Naiya wrote: "Michael wrote: "btw the Cerberus is in the second hobbit movie not the first"

Where? Citation please."


You can look at it in the trailer,though you weren't replying anymore


Michael wrote: "I was watching the lord of the rings the other day and saw that jk rowling copied many many things.These things being identical between the lord of the rings and harry potter,so I was thinking that..."

Mike, Mike, Mike, you are quite good at attracting an audience. You really are. You seemed to have reeled me into this discussion and I didn't even try to fight back. But enough with the chit chat don't you think? Okay. I know you find it strange that Harry Potter has wizards, a conflict, a prophecy, a main character, wands, water, a magickal world, an old mentor who has white hair and a long beard and has lived for a long time. Then in that case, Star wars is just like LOTR. I mean Yoda is really old, but there are no witches nor wizards but alas, there is a prophecy , a conflict , oh I think I should also add this, All of them have Villains. Shocker. Every story needs most of these components, get used to it, it's called fantasy you dimwit


If you were to actually read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, you would see that a lot of the parallels you've drawn here are inaccurate. Also, as Naiya said, plagiarism has a very specific definition; having characters or even a storyline that is similar to those in another book or series does NOT qualify as plagiarism.

As for the Dumbledore/dumbledor issue: both names were derived from the Latin word for bumblebee. Perhaps JKR saw the name in Tolkien's writing and liked it, or perhaps she never saw it. It isn't as if it were actually in the Lord of the Rings trilogy or in the Hobbit; instead it appears in a poem in a book of poems that has been out of print since sometime in the 70s. As for the 'early draft' name change --that is nothing but urban legend.


Horcruxes was a straight cop off of the ring,It's a piece of the dark Lords soul,it's makes its bearer behave horribly,It is very hard destroy if that's not plagiarism there therr is no plagiarism.Not to mention she copied from the ring wreaths also.And galadriels bowl,that turned out to be the pensive


Ishfaq (last edited Mar 17, 2015 12:44AM ) Mar 17, 2015 12:43AM   0 votes
every modern fantasy writer is influenced by Tolkien to some extent... some even far more than Harry Potter.... take A Song of Ice and Fire for instance... i think it should not be called Plagiarism.. Lord of the Rings is Bigger than that.. it has such a big influence on everything (games, music, novels, movies, tv shows). Even a writer like Stephen King himself (in his ON Writing) wrote that he did not start writing fantasy novels earlier in his carrier because he will get influenced by the elf-dwarf-man cycle. even than the similarities between his 'Dark Tower' and LOTR can be found. But that's not Plagiarism. To me LOTR is a myth in itself... so, like Greek or Norse Myth ideas borrwed form it should be acceptable... to some extent...


Lord of The Rings is the greatest fantasy novel ever written, anyone care to object to that? It's no surprise to me that a lot of elements in Harry Potter were taken right from Lord of The Rings. I don't blame Rowling; every fantasy book has to have some sort of inspiration from Lord of the Rings.


Let us not forget some other crucial points:
Hobbits, elves, dwarves and men: they all breathe through nose and mouth. Guess what wizards are also able to do? That is right, they do inspire and expire! Coincidence?.. I think not.
She totally stole the concept of elements from J.R.R.: there's air, land, and water in Harry Potter, as in The Lord of the Rings! She could have been a little more creative, and have developed a new element, but no!... Let's rip off the old chap Tolkien, that is easy enough, is it not?
What about the sky? I mean, one Sun in Middle-Earth, one Sun in Wizarding Britain... The night follows the day... I am just saying, it is too simillar to be an accident.


The only thing "creative" about those booms I believe is platform 9 3/4.


Interesting similarities. Surely she must have read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings and got some basic ideas/themes from them, but she hardly plagiarized.

Also, I recently read The Hunchback of Notre Dame and was struck by how many apparent Harry-Potter-like "references" there seemed to be, so she probably got some of her ideas from that one too. Examples:

• Numerous references to Nicolas Flamel.
• Numerous references to the "Philosopher's Stone."
• In the front of the book, there is a reprint of a 1902 Theater Advertisement for the Play, that shows that the play was "Written for Daly's Theatre by Paul M. Potter.
• A reference to a hippogriff.
• A reference to Griffins.
• A mention that "the philosopher's stone must surely be kept in the cellar" (of Nicolas Flamel).
• References to sorcery, magic, witches, and wizards.
• About Claude Frollo: "More than once, in the choir, during divine service, his neighbor in the stalls heard him mingle unintelligible parentheses with the church music." (Like Harry does with Parseltongue?)
• A reference to a chamber.
• A reference to a "keeper of the towers."
• A reference to "the wings of the owls which flew overhead in numbers."

Still, Rowling has created one of my all-time favorite reads. The entire Harry Potter series is amazing. I own a set, and have read them more than once.


I'm saying these are direct copies I suggest you read my list over the ring/horcrux,the Ringwraiths/Dementors,and the galadriels bow/pensieve are The most notable look I love hp me and my family even has annual tickets to the theme park but you can ignore thee plagiarism.And yes to be honest the plagiarism did make me turn against it some.Just because I love hp doesn't mean I'm blind to its flaws


deleted member Jun 08, 2016 03:45AM   0 votes
I think you'll find that the fantasy genre has specific CONVENTIONS that distinguish it from other genres. Most of the points that you've outlined have become common fantasy genre conventions that A LOT of fantasy movies/books follow. You can't say that J.K Rowling copied Lord of the Rings, fantasy conventions have become the set standard. By the way, to plagiarize would mean to copy WORD FOR WORD.


Lynx wrote: "YES! They actually found one of the first drafts of Lord of the Rings in some old tower, and Gandalf's name was Dumbledore! AARRRGGGG!!!!!"

Really,I know though that there is a creature in the lord of the rings that is like a giant worm called a DUMBLEDORE so that's were she got the name from.It's really sad that she plagiarized from lotr because I'm actually a long time potter fan and know I'm not sure how I feel about hp


Michael, the ring and the horcrux are two COMPLETELY different things and were made in TWO COMPLETELY different ways. Sauron created the ring in the fires of mount doom while voldemort creates horcruxes by simply killing people. The ring DID NOT contain Sauron’s soul nor a piece of it. If anything, the ring was its own separate being. Sauron was its master in that he was he only one who could wield it. Sauron was not immortal because he was destroyed by Isildur after he cur Sauron’s fingers off with his father’s sword. A horcrux, however is not its own separate being because it contains a piece of Voldemorts soul. The ring can only be destroyed by throwing it into the fires from which it was made.
The Horcrux can be destroyed with Basilisk venom (tooth that destroyed the diary, the diadem and the goblet and the sword that destroyed the locket). The only exception was Voldemort using the killing curse on Harry which killed the piece of his soul. The ring and the horcrux are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. If you did your research you wouldve realized that. One last thing, there was NEVER a three headed dog in ANY of the Lord of the Rings films and The Hobbit films. At all. Period. So dont even bring that up. Plagiarizm my ass.


*books


why the hell have so many people responded to this in a serious manner?
the first couple of points are valid, but mostly it is horrible nonsense. and the guy claims he didn't even read the book. this is a troll.


James (last edited Jan 19, 2014 06:51PM ) Jan 19, 2014 06:39PM   0 votes
Michael wrote: "I was watching the lord of the rings the other day and saw that jk rowling copied many many things.These things being identical between the lord of the rings and harry potter,so I was thinking that..."

## Interesting list of similarities - but, a lot of them can be accounted for by bearing in mind that JKR & Tolkien were writing rather similar books. There are limits to how original one can be in writing about wizards - and if their bodies are destroyed (because the plot demands it), then, if they are to re-appear, they will tend to take similar measures to avoid being destroyed.

As well as looking at the similarities,one has to look at what is not similar. Gandalf comes back to life - but not in the manner Voldy does. Voldy has to harm others to come back to life - Gandalf harms no-one in order to do so. The situations within which the similarities occur, are vastly different.
Again, the Dementors, unlike the Black Riders, are not human in origin, are not thousands of years old, are not unable to cross running water. The BRs owe their unnatural long life to owing rings - there is no hint that Dementors do. The BRs are tragic figures, because they used to be "kings of men", and some at least of them were Men of the West, like Aragorn - there is no such tragic undertone in the character of the Dementors. The superficial likenesses between Dementors & BRs, are out-weighed & outnumbered by the far more important differences.

"Not to mention it keeps the dark Lord alive after his body was destroyed and made him immortal,also both dark lords bodies were destroyed funny isn't it plagiarism"

## No. Gandalf is not a mortal - his body is. He is not human in origin, but a sort of angel-like being. Voldemort is no more than human - that he is a human who is a very powerful wizard, does not change that. Besides, Voldy is similar in character, not to Gandalf, but to Sauron. Again, Sauron is not human - he is more like a fallen angel. And his story is very different from Voldemort's - for one thing, he is far older than Voldy, by thousands of years.

Sauron was not destroyed - he was "crippled" so that "he cannot again take [physical] form"; after Voldy is killed, he still has a (very ugly) form, of sorts. All this is much easier to understand if one has read the Silmarillion. Sauron is weakened each time he is overcome - which happens four times: when Morgoth the first Dark Lord is overthrown at the end of the First Age; when Numenor is destroyed, when Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance (both in the Second Age) and when his Ring is destroyed (at the end of the Third Age). Voldy is overthrown twice, and has far more difficulty returning from his first overthrow than Sauron did.

There are so many differences of every kind between the two stories, that the similarities - where they exist - become insignificant. And many of them are no more than would be expected when different authors, of the same nationality, with roughly similar interests, write broadly similar books. Different authors, both influenced by Germanic or Celtic mythology, are likely to reflect similar ideas.

"Merry and Pippin/The Weasly brothers"

## There are 6 Weasley brothers, with 1 sister. They are all different ages. Merry & Pippin are two friends, from entirely different & distantly-related families. Neither has a sister. They stick together; not all the Weasleys do: Percy has a massive row with his parents, then comes back. M & P "go up in the world", by being greatly honoured - the Weasleys don't. The Weasley parents play an important part in the HP books - the parents of Merry do not, nor do Pippin's.

"Gandalf/Dumbledore"

## Dumbledore is killed by a friend, at his own request, whom he is not fighting; and stays dead. Gandalf is (mortally ?) wounded by an enemy, whom he is fighting, & whom he destroys - some days later, Gandalf returns from death, and gives further help to the enemies of Sauron. Dumbledore has a brother - Gandalf does not. Gandalf is very old indeed, many times older than Dumbledore. Dumbledore is a teacher - Gandalf is not. Dumbledore stays in one place - Gandalf is "the Grey Wanderer". Dumbledore fights Voldemort face-to-face - Gandalf does not fight Sauron face to face.

"Galadriel future seeing bowl/Pensieve"

## Galadriel's Mirror sees the Destruction of Numenor, over 3,140 years before Frodo looks in it. The oldest memory in the Pensieve is from just before Merope Gaunt eloped with Tom Riddle the elder, in about 1925 - 72 years before Harry sees her being bullied by her father & brother, before she elopes. Galadriel's Mirror also shows Frodo leave Middle-Earth, as he does at the end of TLOTR - two years after destroying the Ring. The Pensieve is helpful as a guide to what one should do - the Mirror is not. The visions in the Pensieve are of things past - the visions in the Mirror include past, present & future; and it is often impossible to tell which one is seeing. The water in the Mirror is not to be touched - Harry has to go dive into the water in the Pensieve, to arrive at what he saw in it.

"Ring makes dark Lord immortal/Horcrux makes dark Lord immortal"

## Sauron was immortal already - the Ring gave him, not immortality, but power. As long as he did not destroy or lose it. But he was still very powerful indeed without it.

"The council of elrond/The order of the Phoenix"

## What do the members of the Order say ? We are not shown ? What is said at the Council of Elrond ? Tolkien gives us about 40 pages of what is said, a lot of it word-for-word. The Council of Elrond was specifically for making plans - nothing else: not true of the Order. Those present at the Council get on with each other far better than some members of the Order do.

"Dark Lord/Dark Lord(I mean honestly jk had to take the same word pathetic)"

## The two figures are both the Big Bads in their stories - there is not a lot else that JKR could have called her Big Bad.


Michael (last edited Sep 02, 2013 05:37PM ) Sep 02, 2013 05:35PM   0 votes
Naiya wrote: "Michael wrote: "How do you explain a creature being named Dumbledore in lotr,I doubt jk got the name from and English dialect"

I'm afraid I must have not read Lord of the Rings as closely as I sho..."


You can read about it in wiki also in the Tolkien beastiary


Her books are poorly written abominations it is sad that a see a lot of people comparing them to Tolkien's books.

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Carmol Mae Absolutely agree! She's a woeful writer who has so obviously copied Tolkien. ...more
Aug 23, 2021 04:52AM · flag

Cerberus, the 3 headed dog, is from VERY OLD mythologies from many cultures.

You want to compare ideas/theft, compare Tad Williams' Stone, Memory, and Thorn series written before Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire... Some events are exact, even some characters are very close.... However, where things end up will be rather different, I'm sure ;)


Michael everything you mentioned DOES NOT and WILL NEVER “fit the bill”. You obviosly have no idea what plagiarism means.


Michael (last edited Sep 02, 2013 06:08PM ) Sep 02, 2013 06:07PM   0 votes
Naiya wrote: "Michael wrote: "And the two of you never thought to mention the ring and horcruxes which is a direct copy and there is a whole list other then that"

Oh, are you just plagiarizing the wikipedia ent..."


By the way this article lists some of the copies I listed and rowling admits to reading lotr as a child so even the dumbledore aside you have some series plagiarism.Orson Scott accused her of the same thing with his enders game.The fact that she took the dark Lord saying is really bad plagiarism.Not to mention all the others like for instance the dementers and the nazghul


The real problem for me with JK's books is that she could quite easily have invented something unlike the One Ring (aka horcrux), but she didn't. That reduces her stature a little in my eyes. Alas, originality is rare these days, which is why I read China Mieville.


Anders (last edited Mar 23, 2016 08:28PM ) Mar 23, 2016 08:28PM   0 votes
"Gandalf/Dumbledore" They are both Merlin clones, it that hard to understand they are alike.


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