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The Bonehunters (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #6)
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Group Read - The Bonehunters > BH - Chapter Seventeen - No Spoilers

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message 1: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Discussion thread for chapter seventeen.


message 2: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
We return to Malaz city in the wake of a Wickan purge. Cults to Coltaine and the Wickans and The Chain of Dogs have been popping up all over Seven Cities. In the face of rising hero worship for the Wickans, Laseen has undergone a secret campaign of disinformation, denying Coltaine’s heroic acts and demonising the Wickans as traitors and laying the blame of the 10000 crucified at Aren at Coltaine’s feet. The fact that Coltaine is worshipped inj Seven Cities is pointed to as proof that he had in fact betrayed the Empire. Organised mobs have been rounding up and slaughtering Wickans, safe in the knowledge that the Empress will look away as they do their patriotic duty.

And, most heinous of all, Coltaine had then, in league with the traitorous Imperial Historian, Duiker, connived to effect the subsequent betrayal and annihilation of the Aren Army, led by the naive High Fist Pormqual who was the first victim of that dread betrayal. Why else, after all, would those very rebels of Seven Cities take to the worship of such figures, if not seeing in Coltaine and the rest heroic allies ...

On top of that the Adjuncts role in putting down the rebellion has also been downplayed.

Coltaine wasn’t dead, people said. That entire tale was a lie, as was the more recent rumour that Sha’ik had been killed by the Adjunct.

This does not bode well for Tavore’s pending return.

The ex priest of Drek, Banaschar, has been trying to get a message to Tayschrenn regarding what he witnessed in Kartool in the prologue. He concludes that Tayschrenn’s lack of response is because his messages are being intercepted. If true, it suggests that Tay is on the outer with the Empress and she is isolating him away from the outside. The only reason I can think that she might do this would be that she blames Tay for Coral not falling into the Empire’s hands at the end of the Pannion war in MOI.

And Mallick Rel, Korbolo Dom and Pearl are all in Malaz City. All of them are preparing to tell the Empress their version of events. Mallick and Korbolo will insist that they were working for the Empress’s interest all along and Pearl has to convince her otherwise

‘I assure you,’ Pearl said, ‘the nature of my report to the Empress will upend this tidy cart of yours. I was there, I saw—’
‘You saw what you wanted to see. No witness in truth but myself, regarding the events now being revisited. Revised, yes? As all events are, for such is the exercise of quillclawed carrion who title themselves historians.


Mallick Rel also insinuates that his star is about to rise

‘This rain,’ Mallick Rel continued behind him, ‘it shall make the seas rise, yes?’

Mallick being a priest of Mael – god of the sea

Mallick is even so confident as to threaten the Claw if they stand in his way

‘It is best,’ the man said in his sibilant voice, ‘that you consider my humble suggestion, Claw, for the good of your sect.’
‘For the good of ...’ Gods below, he feels ready to threaten the Claw! How far has all this madness gone? I must speak with Topper – maybe it’s not too late ...


Too bad for Pearl that he and Topper are not on the best of terms


Karsa and Samar are on their way to Lether where Karsa is to duel the Edur Emperor – as is Icarium and Taralack Veed. The fact that Veed is pushing this suggests that this is what the Nameless Ones intended Icarium to do from when they released Dejim.

Samar meets Feather Witch and spurns her. Feather Witch has Brys Beddict’s finger around her neck. I wonder what she intends to do with it.

We also get a bit of history from Ahlrada – a Bluerose sleeper agent – A Tiste Andii descendant disguised as a Tiste Edur. We met Ahlrada briefly last book.

Through Ahlrada we learn that Andarist was falsely accused of betraying Mother Dark and that she believed the accusation. As a result Anomander rejected Mother Dark – Silchas tried to breach the gap, trying to reconcile both sides, even went as far as allying with Shadow for a common cause before he was betrayed by Scabandari. It’s all a little sketchy. We only get a bit of the gist of things.

Anyway – the Bluerose are descended from the Tiste Andii who survived Scabandari’s slaughter in the prologue of MOI


The one really telling passage concerning the Edur

‘The Edur now rule Lether. Where they lead, Letherii must follow. Edur swords make river of blood, and from river of blood, there is river of gold. The loyal have grown rich, so very rich.’
‘And the disloyal?’
‘They tend the oars. Indebted. It is so.’


That answers the question of whether the Edur have taken on the Letherii system of indebtedness.

Cotillion pays a visit to the defenders of the First Throne of the Imass where Trull, Onrack, Minala, Apt and the army of child assassins has been fighting off waves of Tiste Edur. They have been holding but have taken a beating, in particular Minala’s children have suffered major casualties.

And here we learn a few more interesting things.

From Onrack

‘When they win the First Throne, they will realize the truth. That it is not for them. They can hold it, but they cannot use it. Why, then, Cotillion of Shadow, do these brave mortals surrender their lives here?’

It turns out that the power of the First Throne is waning. That even when Kellanved claimed it he was only able to control a single Imass clan – and then only because they were in close proximity to the throne.

Shadowthrone was able to awaken Logros T’lan Imass – a lone army, finding itself still bound to the First Throne’s remnant power due to little more than mere proximity. He could not command Kron T’lan Imass, nor Bentract, nor Ifayle, nor the others that remained, for they were too distant

The power of the throne is further weakened by virtue of the fact that Shadowthrone is no longer mortal and the throne was intended for a mortal. Which explains why Shadowthrone doesn’t bother trying to use it any more.

There is however a danger that the throne could be destroyed using chaos magic. Onrack asks the question “Is this cause for regret.” Apparently it is for those still bound by the ritual but it isn’t explained why. There is also a hint that the power of the First Throne could be revived if one knew how. Onrack is quite happy to spill – but the other Imass shut him up

‘Is it possible,’ he asked, ‘to restore the power of the First Throne?’
‘Say nothing,’ Monok Ochem commanded.



The other tantalizing tidbit we get regarding dragons

‘They all cast shadows, Uncle,’ Panek said. ‘Into your realm. Every one of them. That’s why there’s so many ... prisoners.’
Cotillion frowned, then, slowly, inexorably as comprehension dawned, the god’s eyes widened.


What exactly does this mean and why does it shock Cotillion. Is he suggesting that the dragons have shadow versions of themselves running loose in the Shadow Realm? I’m thinking Curdle and Telorast here for a start. But wither way - that's a lot of dragons.

The other tantalizing bit is Cotillion’s statement

Cotillion, please, take them with you.’
‘I cannot.’
‘Why?’
He glanced over at Onrack. ‘Because, Minala, I am not returning to the Realm of Shadow—’


Does he mean permanently?


message 3: by Mpauli (last edited Sep 03, 2013 12:12PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mpauli | 245 comments Chapter 17 starts and gives us a lot of interesting things to discuss. So, let's get right into it.

1) Poem

In the poem preceding the chapter, there is another hint that mortals are actually responsible for all that happens and their fate:

The hands that reach out to guide your every step, your every thought, come not from the gods, for they are no less deluded than we – no, my friends, those hands come to each of us ... from each of us.

Again, the gods are shown as the victims of the mortals.

2) A state of the Empire

Once again, I'm going to take one of those descriptive pictures Erikson uses and try to show you, what he's really talking about. Look at this description of Malaz City:

Mostly rain comes down, they said, but occasionally it comes up, seeping through the crumbling cobbles of the quarter, transforming such beneath-ground establishments as Coop’s into a swampy quagmire, the entrance guarded by a whining cloud of mosquitoes, and the stench of overflowed sewers wafting about so thick the old-timers announce its arrival as they would an actual person miserably named Stink – greeted if not welcomed into already sordid company.

With this passage, Erikson tells us all we need to know about the state the empire is currently in.

As we know from the end of the chapter, the rain and the rising water is a sign for the growing influence of the Jhistal priest Mallick Rel.

His influence turns the empire into the image of a swamp. You get the image that the empire is stuck in that swamp, drowning in mud, lies and propaganda.

The image of the cloud of mosquitoes guarding the doors of the empire reeks of corruption. The bloodsuckers are in charge and bleeding the empire.

The image of drowning by rain, drowning in the swampy mud, drowning in mosquitoes is emphasized by the image of the overflowing sewers.
The empire has grown to large. It bursts and isn't able to contain and control all of its aspects.

And the old-timers...are those probably the Old Guard, who knew that this day would come? So they might have tried to escape by drowning preemptively?

Once again, if you ask me, Erikson paints a beautiful picture full of hidden double-meaning.

3) Banashar's drinking buddy

Let's look at the description given to us regarding Banashar's drinking buddy:

The huge man – who rarely met anyone’s eyes while talking, and whose massive hands and wrists were scarred and puckered with weals – shook his head and said, ‘If that salvation’s a woman, only a fool would wager agin me.’

So, could this be another contender for the person Grub referred to last chapter?
A few sentences later, Banashar picks up the image of the woman again:

‘No need to continue. My salvation is not a woman, or if she was, it wouldn’t be because she’s a woman, if you understand me.’

As I am this suspicious guy with the conspiracy theories, I would suggest that Erikson exactly knows that these two are speaking about hypothetical women here, but underneath I get a strong scent of the Adjunct being the woman talked about here, thus the possible tie-in to Grub's prophecy.

And later on, the drinking companion gives another huge hint to his identity:

Banaschar snorted. ‘The drowning man converses with the fool, a night to beggar acrobats, jugglers and dancers, come one come all, two silvers buys you endless – and I do mean endless – entertainment.’
‘I ain’t too unfamiliar with drowning, friend.’
‘Meaning?’
‘Something tells me, when it comes to fools, you might say the same thing.’


So, I guess it's safe to say that Banashar is drinking with someone from the Old Guard.

4) Tapestry

Yes, I'm being very conspiratorial today. Another image that you might think coincidental, is putting me into full paranoia alertness. This is Ahlrada describing a wall carpet:

Rolled up, home to nesting mice, the genius of the hands that had woven it slowly losing its unwitnessed war to the scurry-beetle grub, tawryn worms and ash moths.

We later learn the contents of the image being the 3 sons of Mother Dark. David already talked about the content, so let's look again at the tapestry.

It simbolizes the 3 sons. And the threads tying them together seem to unravel in the picture. Now take a closer look again with a few highlights about how the tapestry is unraveled and by whom:

Rolled up, home to nesting mice, the genius of the hands that had woven it slowly losing its unwitnessed war to the scurry-beetle grub, tawryn worms and ash moths.

So, is there another war foreshadowed, involving the 3 sons of Darkness? Is Grub part of this war? D'rek? And what are the ash moths standing for?
Ash could hint on Tiste Edur...and moths...aren't they drawn to light?

I leave you alone with those ideas for now. And, of course, there's always the possibility that a tapestry is just a tapestry...

5) Smells like Teen Spirit

So, what kind of presence is Onrack smelling?

‘At times, down in this chasm, I smell something, a presence. It is faint, animal. It ... comforts me, although I do not know why, for I cannot comprehend its source. In those times, Trull Sengar, I feel as if we are being observed. We are being watched by unseen eyes, and in those eyes there is vast compassion.’

Apparently all the Imass are feeling it. Is it Treach? Togg and Fenderay? The rat god Y'Ghatan?

6) Geography

We learn that each continent seems to have some hot spot and are reminded of the image of the cycle:

Hood take this damned, foul city anyway. Why must imperial events ever converge here? Because, he answered himself, Genabackis had Pale. Korel had the Stormwall. Seven Cities has Y’Ghatan. In the heart of the Malazan Empire, we have Malaz City. Where it began, so it returns, again and again. And again. Festering sores that never heal, and when the fever rises, the blood wells forth, sudden, a deluge.

Who are you? Nameless One number 9 from the prologue? You're supposed to be dead, but you want to remind me of what you said in the prologue? Okay, can't hurt:

Where all began, so it will return in the end.

Thanks for foreshadowing...erm...reminding us again.

7) Karsa and Icarium

If I start quoting here, we're not done at Christmas, so maybe read the parts from Taralack Veed again and from Samar Dev.

You may have noticed that Veed's and Icarium's part is full of Karsa words. "Witness" is mentioned, as are "chains" and "vengeance".
So, there is obviously a parallel here between Karsa and Icarium.
"Vengeance" is then mentioned again in Samar Dev's pov. In both cases, hence the parallel, "Vengeance" is named as the motivating force for Karsa and Icarium to take the trip to Lether.

But, the difference between them lies in their companions. Veed is encouraging the concept of vengeance in Icarium, but Samar Dev is discouraging the same concept, when it comes to Karsa.

This would all be way more complicated, if we would try to connect the concept of vengeance to two brothers, whose lives seem to be determined by this concept, but thankfully they aren't mentinoned in this...argh...there's that damn useless tapestry again.

First time readers are allowed to be confused now. Re-reader, especially ones, who read FoD should be totally nuts at this point.
My next floor will definately have no tapestry, that's for sure. Maybe tiles? Oh no...Erikson is ruining floors now!

Bla, bla, crazy, shriek, next chapter, witty comment, friendly practicals with straight jackets...


message 4: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (last edited Sep 03, 2013 01:16PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Mpauli wrote: "So, could this be another contender for the person Grub referred to last chapter?"

That's a good pickup. Who exactly is this Foreigner


Apparently all the Imass are feeling it. Is it Treach? Togg and Fenderay? The rat god Y'Ghatan?"

I immediately thought of Togg and Fanderay, as they are now sitting on the throne of the newly awakened warren of the Imass's pre Tellan gods. They are now the official gods of all flesh and blood Imass - if they ever decide to get Silverfox to release them from the ritual.

Great summary and analogies...and did I just see Glokta carrying off someone in a straight jacket?


Mpauli | 245 comments David Sven wrote: "Mpauli wrote: That's a good pickup. Who exactly is this Foreigner"

Yeah, I'm not sure here. I don't think it's Urko, cause I don't think he made it to Malaz City by now, but might be possible, due to being invited back to participate by Apsalar/Cotillion.

I also don't think it's Toc the Elder...(view spoiler)

Therefore my gut says Cartheon Crust. He was on the ship that brought Kalam to Malaz City in DG, if I'm not totally mistaken, so it might be possible that he stuck around. But I have no real text proof for this.


message 6: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Fascinating chapter and I think the pair of you have pretty much covered it all.

That answers the question of whether the Edur have taken on the Letherii system of indebtedness.

I am really looking forward to watching carefully how the Edur people change by becoming rulers of the Letherii. They are a stoic race (the Edur) and very traditional whilst the Letherii are best described as sewer rats. The occupation of Lether cannot but change the Edur, but to what level? I think the part about finding lost Edur yet treating them as slaves is a beginning to what will ultimately change the Edur.

‘The Edur now rule Lether. Where they lead, Letherii must follow. Edur swords make river of blood, and from river of blood, there is river of gold. The loyal have grown rich, so very rich.’
‘And the disloyal?’
‘They tend the oars. Indebted. It is so.’


This already shows that some Letherii have wormed there way in to positions of power and influence within the rulers.

I can't wait to get back to Lether and see what has become of the city.


message 7: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (last edited Sep 03, 2013 06:59PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
‘Because now, Samar Dev, the rest of the Edur fleet – Tomad Sengar’s mass of warships – is behind the Malazans.’
All at once, the cold wind seemed to cut through all of Samar Dev’s clothing. ‘They mean to attack them?’
‘They mean to annihilate them,’


This is interesting. You would image this is why Grub wanted the fleet to delay.

We’ll die in the sea, two days after we leave Sepik Island.’

So Grub knows that they will encounter the Edur, with a fleet ahead and behind them. So assuming he wants to wait for the Y'Ghatan group to catch up, because somebody in that group will help stop them from being destroyed. Given who is in the group you'd imagine it is QB and Sinn who are needed to protect the fleet from the Edur sorcerers.


message 8: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Is it me, or is anyone else noticing the changes in Cotillion? He is becoming more human and less godlike. Developing empathy and guilt?? Possessing Sorry screwed him up big time.


message 9: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Yes. It seems possession works both ways. Apsalar becomes more like a god - while Cotillion becomes more human.


message 10: by Rob, Quick Ben (last edited Sep 04, 2013 03:55AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
This chapter read very slow for me. I'm sure it's just a lot of setup and subtleness I'm not getting or something.

Although unlike House of Chains, the Trull part was one of the parts I enjoyed. I have no idea what Cortillion's dragon revelation is about though. That part just confused me.

I still really dislike Feather Witch. Hoping bad things happen to her. I'd love Samar to put her in her place.

With Incarium and Karsa both on their way to the Emperor, I wonder if we'll be having a rematch?

And since Bugg is Mael, how can I like him so much and detest Mallick Rel so much? Can't Mael just strike him down or something, or at least take his powers from him?


Mpauli | 245 comments Rob wrote: "And since Bugg is Mael, how can I like him so much and detest Mallick Rel so much? Can't Mael just strike him down or something, or at least take his powers from him?"

Yep, this is one of the main themes in the novel. How powerless the gods are about what their followers do in their name.
Mallick Rel is a very good example for this.


message 12: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Rob wrote: "I have no idea what Cortillion's dragon revelation is about though. That part just confused me."

I'd like to know exactly what that's about as well

Rob wrote: "Can't Mael just strike him down or something, or at least take his powers from him? "

Mortals can use warrens without an occupying god's permission if they know how. And there's also the theme that mortals can compel gods if they know how.


message 13: by Silvio (last edited Sep 04, 2013 04:29AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Silvio Curtis | 403 comments So Silchas Ruin betrayed the Tiste Andii by joining with the Tiste Edur. It's ironic that the Edur are the ones who ended up remembering him as the Betrayer. I suppose we don't actually know how reliable Bluerose history is either. Conceivably it could be just as distorted as the Edur's.

Language change must be slower in the Malazan world than in ours if Letherii and Seven Cities languages are still recognizably similar after maybe 70,000 years.

I'm not sure about Cotillion and the dragons, but my thought was that the imprisoned dragons he talked to are shadow versions, and the real dragons are somewhere else, possibly flying loose and at least able to repeat their shadows' conversations with him to anyone they want.


message 14: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori So glad the dragon part confused others as well, I reread that twice thinking I missed something. Dragons are from Chaos, and we also know that everything seems to cast a shadow.

As for the presence, I was thinking Eres.


message 15: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lori (Hellian) wrote: "As for the presence, I was thinking Eres.
"


That is probably right. We know the Eres has an interest in Trull


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Great discussion here. I found this chapter quite jarring. As things fit in the entire series, I'm very excited to see disparate elements coming together. But it also feels like we are starting into a new book even though we are over 2/3rds of the way through. Change of places, introduction of new characters for this book, it's all very disorienting.

There was such a great sense of closure with the Bonehunters finally joining the rest of the 14th, and now its like the book is trying to find first gear again.


message 17: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Lol afraid not Duffy. First gear is going to happen in Reapers Gale.


Sumant As a result Anomander rejected Mother Dark – Silchas tried to breach the gap, trying to reconcile both sides, even went as far as allying with Shadow for a common cause before he was betrayed by Scabandari. It’s all a little sketchy. We only get a bit of the gist of things.

This part was really interesting also Ahralda Ahn mentions that not all Andii were dead when the tiste edur betrayed them, but the remaining survived in catacombs which were present beneath the ice waste.I think this was the same waste that Trull found when they were crossing the ice waste to retrieve the sword given by CG.

Cotillion pays a visit to the defenders of the First Throne of the Imass where Trull, Onrack, Minala, Apt and the army of child assassins has been fighting off waves of Tiste Edur. They have been holding but have taken a beating, in particular Minala’s children have suffered major casualties.

So the first throne is present in nascent realm and the shadow throne is present on drift avali.It always comes back to nascent and silanada i guess.Also that dragon part which panek spoke i think it is going to have lot of repercussions.


message 19: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Sumant wrote: "So the first throne is present in nascent realm"

I believe the First Throne is on a continent "south of Seven Cities"

From HOC
‘So the throne was moved.’
‘Yes, to a continent south of Seven Cities. Where it was found by a mage – Kellanved, the Emperor of the Malazan Empire.’


Which leads me to believe it is on Quon Tali -

‘How many guardians protect the First Throne?’
‘None.’
Trull Sengar straightened. ‘None?’
‘Do any T’lan Imass remain on the continent of Quon Tali?’ Onrack asked.



message 20: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I still don't grasp the Nascent hold. That and the Empty hold. The seem very vague compared to the others. I think because the others have gods.


message 21: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Well the Nascent is one of the larger, possibly the largest pieces of the Shattered Kurald Emurlahn warren. I view the Empty hold as a kind of vacuum created when Gothos froze Lether in time. It's only now that the ritual is breaking down that the Empty Hold is up for grabs to become whatever it's going to become.


message 22: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Oh! Wonderful info, an aha moment! :)


message 23: by Dara (last edited Mar 26, 2014 12:25PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dara (cmdrdara) | 210 comments David Sven wrote: "What exactly does this mean and why does it shock Cotillion. Is he suggesting that the dragons have shadow versions of themselves running loose in the Shadow Realm? I’m thinking Curdle and Telorast here for a start. But wither way - that's a lot of dragons."

I was wondering about that. I didn't think of Curdle and Telorast until you mentioned them. I was thinking of shadow dragons like the hounds of shadow. I might be thinking of the deragoth and hounds incorrectly though. I think of the hounds as being a shadow to the deragoth so I thought of the dragons in the same way. There are dragons and there are their shadows which are separate entities. I don't know if that makes any sense...

Lee wrote: "Is it me, or is anyone else noticing the changes in Cotillion? He is becoming more human and less godlike. Developing empathy and guilt?? Possessing Sorry screwed him up big time."

I noticed that as well. He has a lot of humanity for being a god, and more with each appearance.

Lee wrote: "Lol afraid not Duffy. First gear is going to happen in Reapers Gale."

I'm apprehensive about that book. Rob had mentioned it's similar to MT, which I had a hard time with.

Some other thoughts:
I really enjoyed this chapter. Most of the stuff I was going to say has been mentioned already but I have a few more things:

-Icarium totally breaks my heart. The scene with him huddled in a corner and Taralack has to convince him to fight kind of crushed me a little (or a lot, whatever). Icarium does not want to be a murderer or a weapon to be unleashed. He's such a softie. I'm quite scared to see him unleash his power, which I'm sure is going to happen at some point.

-Trull slapping Onrack on the back was hilarious. That part was written in such a way that it was very vivid in my head. With all the serious talk that was happening, that moment of comedy was welcome.

-Samar Dev describes Karsa and his relationship with TCG better than I did (I mentioned it in the ch. 16 thread):

I, too, begin to think of Karsa Orlong as a weapon" and "But, she suspected, someone or something else was already playing that game."

Karsa is a participant in TCG plans, even if he's an unwilling participant.

Edit: Also: The Edur ships may think they're going to crush the Malazan fleet but they have no idea who is aboard those ships, namely Quick Ben, Kalam, Sinn, Bottle, Fid (I don't know if he has any munitions left but he's a mad sapper), plus Nil and Nether. Also Corabb's been chosen by Oponn. Quick Ben alone would probably make me turn back.


message 24: by Mike (last edited Aug 14, 2014 07:06PM) (new) - added it

Mike | 7 comments Very interesting chapter in a pivotal book in the series. Stevenson has an interesting comment on this book as a whole in the TOR discussion. He notes that structurally this book is not novelesque, but represents kind of a double peak on the bell curve of the entire series.

As for this chapter... I was also intrigued by Panek's comment about dragons to Cotillion. I have no real idea what he meant. Someone on another site reminded me that in Midnight Tides, I believe it was, we learned that dragon's blood congeals into a black substance that traps souls. From there, one may free associate to Dragnipur. I wonder if it has anything to do... Also might be worth going back and rereading Cotillion's discussion with Edgewalker, and possibly that scene in the crashed floating city when Icarium and Mappo Runt came across that spiked dragon.

As for Karsa's role in the CG's plans, recall that he got the CG to back off in -- what was it? HoC, maybe? It also looks like he's headed for a confrontation with the CG's protege in Lether...

@Mpauli: And the "Foreigner"... Urko has another brother, does he not? If I remember, there were two "drowning victims."


message 25: by Bas (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bas (basdr) | 39 comments I also thought that 'Foreigner' had to be one of the old guard but isn't Cartheron Crust a Napan? Banaschar would have recognized that accent, right?

I keep mixing those thrones up. For a while I thought Trull and co were at the Throne of Shadow but its the T'lan Imass throne. Very confusing. More thrones in this series than Game of thrones has.


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