A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

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A first-timer

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message 1: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Hi folks!

It's nice to meet you all)

I do a lot of reviews on my site (currently, I'm wading through Deep Space Nine from scratch). For my birthday, my sister-in-law gave me A Game of Thrones.

Oy. 800+ pages? But I'd done the unabridged The Stand, so why not?

Anyway, I joined this group because I figured you guys might get a kick out of a newbie's thoughts as I make it through the series. I can easily see myself reading the other books in A Song of Fire and Ice.

Currently, here's some random thoughts at page 520 of the text:

1) Favorite characters: Tyrion, Dany, Sandor Clegane (yep, I'm not kidding), Jon Snow, Syrio Forel, Littlefinger.
2) Least-favorite characters: Sansa (though she is very well-written, I think), Catelyn, and a few others I know I'm forgetting.

Folks various characters remind me of:

Bronn and Sandor: Wolverine and Sabretooth (for some reason)
Syrio: The Dread Pirate Roberts!
Catelyn: Lori from The Walking Dead.
The Khal: Well, Genghis Khan, which I'm sure is deliberate.

I'm sure I'll think of more over time.


message 2: by Kat (new)

Kat (katsobsession) | 141 comments Welcome to the group! And I'll be very interested to see how your favorites change as you read^_^


message 3: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments No worries, Sandor is crowd favorite. I love him too, he's legit and I love how honest and direct he is.

I can't wait for you hit book three. It's about 10million times amazing in my opinion. Easily one of my favorites novels I've ever read.

And just wait til you get Cersei's POV....as much as I dislike her character, which is a lot, the writing for that POV was extremely well done.


message 4: by Kat (new)

Kat (katsobsession) | 141 comments RE Cersei's POV, couldn't agree more!


message 5: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments That's interesting, because while I think Cersei is a great character, I honestly cannot stand her at this point--which is the point, I suppose, seeing as how she's a villain.

By the way -- I had no idea "the Dragon" would get roasted that early on. Loved how that came out of left field.


message 6: by Kenneth (new)

Kenneth Geary (KagedBooks) (kagedbooks) It is cool to see how people’s perceptions of characters changes as they read the series, for me it was Jamie the most it hated his but now he is one of my favorites


message 7: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments @Jonathan - Personally, once you have all three Lannister siblings POV's they are easily my favorite to read outside of Arya and they are all so amazingly different.

I agree with you Kenneth. I love Jaime now that I've read all the novels. Really complex character development. Some of the best anti-hero writing I've read so far in my life.


message 8: by Edward (new)

Edward Lusty | 4 comments Hi Jonathon, hi one and all. I'm only a book ahead of Jonathon myself and I've certainly been bitten by this bug.

Jonathon, I can see why you'd add 'I'm not kidding' to your Sandor choice, but he is easily my favourite character so far (which is commendable considering how many characters I love in this series so far!). I think it's his blunt honesty.

And comparing Catelyn to Lori Grimes? Ouch! But I see your point. (I assume, with the Jon Snow thing, we're talking TV show?) :-)

I haven't yet reached any Lannister POV's bar Tyrion's, but now I can't wait to get there! I'll have to double time my reading!


message 9: by Philip (new)

Philip | 1 comments Hi, My name is Philip. I am from Maryland. I love George RR Martin fire and ice books.I am looking for friends.


message 10: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments If he can make the Lannisters sympathetic, then I'll be thrilled. I mean, it's easy with Tyrion, and I've seen a hint of softness beneath Cersei's hard edge, but Jaime? I've gotta see that.

Yep @Edward, Lori. Catelyn just has an air to her that reminds me of Lori. Ditto with the rash decisions.

@Philip-- welcome!


message 11: by Kenneth (new)

Kenneth Geary (KagedBooks) (kagedbooks) Screw Cersei haha that is one woman i would like to see get punched right in the face my the mountain, but yes I think you will find Jamie's devolpment interesting.


message 12: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments OH, I don't think he'll make you feel to sympathetic toward Cersei, just the way he writes her complete narcissism and extreme paranoia is really well done. It's completely believable that she is suffering from some sort of mental illness in my opinion.
Which I guess could make some people feel sympathy for her, but mostly you just feel like Kenneth. LOL


And yah, I think almost everyone does a 180 on Jaime after you get his POV. I hated him for what happened with Bran and just the general portrayal of him, but he turns into this amazing and intrigueing character, just wait!


message 13: by Edward (new)

Edward Lusty | 4 comments I love that George has written Cersei to deliver her arrogance, greed and prejudice so that you utterly loathe her. It sounds easy to do, but this is genius writing. I would have said I detested our Queen Regent over and above everyone else, but she went and spawned Joffrey.

...And now I've just come across another character at the end of ACoK. I don't want to spoiler the name as I know Jonathon hasn't read this far by the looks of it but, wow, WHAT a *beeeeeeeep*!!!


message 14: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments I totally agree Edward.

Except Cersei doesn't top my hate list. While I don't particularly care for how she does things or how she imagines things to be, I have to say she is just about the only woman in Westeros who sets herself apart and could eventually be a pioneer for Woman's Rights. (Even if it was done only because it would benefit herself. LOL)

Also if you ever want to say something that is a spoiler you can always tag it.
All you have to do is


< spoiler > whatever the spoiler is goes here
< / spoiler >

but without spaces. It will come out looking like this - (this will actually contain spoiler so please don't click it and be sad)

(view spoiler)


message 15: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments OK, some newbie help here-- I have this thread set not to email me, but to add to my update feed...and I never get notified. Any ideas?



I have to wonder about Cersei, though, Amber. I'd see her as a pioneer for women's rights (at least from my limited reading in AGOT) if she were benevolent yet shrewd--say, an Elizabeth I sort of ruler, for example. In this book, I can just imagine a bunch of subjects years later saying "you see what happened? Let's avoid putting one of those on the throne again!"


message 16: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Did you set to send Notification only? If you did it should just put it up in the Notification area at the top of the screen. But I know sometimes it glitches on people and it doesn't send notifications for everything. I don't really know what can be done about that.


As for Cersei, I think I can agree that a lot of people would view her in a negative light. However, simply for her own selfish benefit, I could see her pushing to create more leadership roles for woman so she could eventually get into one and have power without a man in front of her or even to remove certain types of humiliating punishments, especially at the point she is in the series by the time you read FFC/DWD.

I don't want to spoil so that is all I'll say on that front.


message 17: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Roger that. And thanks for the tip.

I do think the best characters are multi-dimensional.


message 18: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Jonathan wrote: "If he can make the Lannisters sympathetic, then I'll be thrilled. I mean, it's easy with Tyrion, and I've seen a hint of softness beneath Cersei's hard edge, but Jaime? I've gotta see that."

Actually it's the other way around: Jaime becomes sympathetic, while Cersei becomes way more unsympathetic when you get to their PoV chapters. In Cersei's case, it's because we get a glimpse of what an utter mess of cruelty and craziness she is under her relatively calm exterior. In Jaime's case, it's more complex: we learn some backstory about him that makes him a little more sympathetic, but it's mainly his actions that do the trick, i.e. he actively turns away from the selfish and cruel ways of his Lannister upbringing and tries to do the right thing for a change. It also helps that, on occasion, Jaime can be nearly as devastatingly funny as Tyrion. There are several scenes in the fourth book where he almost seems to be channelling Tyrion's spirit.

Amber wrote: "As for Cersei, I think I can agree that a lot of people would view her in a negative light. However, simply for her own selfish benefit, I could see her pushing to create more leadership roles for woman so she could eventually get into one and have power without a man in front of her or even to remove certain types of humiliating punishments, especially at the point she is in the series by the time you read FFC/DWD."

IMO, Cersei is exactly the type of woman who would never support women's rights. She bitches about how she is discriminated against because of her gender, of course (and she’s right on that point). But that’s because she wants power for herself, not for women in general. She hates and is suspicious of most other women around her, and has no female friends (with the sole exception of Taena Merryweather, and she’s obviously a fair-weather friend). For example, see how jealous she is of Margaery – that’s because Margaery is also a powerful woman from a powerful family.

Women like Cersei (in real life or in fiction) do not support women’s rights, because that would mean that all women would get equal opportunities. Cersei just wants opportunities for herself. She’s playing a zero-sum game – i.e. ‘I win, you lose’ – whereas a social improvement like women’s empowerment would make everyone winners.


message 19: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Interesting. But are you saying Cersei was actively against such rights, or simply doesn't care to work toward them?


message 20: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments I think that Cersei might pay lip service to the idea of supporting women's rights if she thought it would be politically beneficial for her. But she would never sincerely support such a notion, and would probably do everything she could to undermine the efforts of others.


message 21: by Jayme (last edited Sep 01, 2013 12:29PM) (new)

Jayme (jaymetheghostreader) | 1113 comments Jonathan wrote: "That's interesting, because while I think Cersei is a great character, I honestly cannot stand her at this point--which is the point, I suppose, seeing as how she's a villain.

By the way -- I had ..."


villain in these books is a loose term. I love Syrio. I can see why you think he is like the dread pirate Roberts. Man has got skills.

Don't rule Sansa out just yet. You only read the first book.

Also I think Cersei is only concerned for her rights. The rights of the noble and royal classes. She would care about the rights of the peasant woman. To her they are just servants.


message 22: by Edward (new)

Edward Lusty | 4 comments Amber wrote: "I totally agree Edward.

Except Cersei doesn't top my hate list. While I don't particularly care for how she does things or how she imagines things to be, I have to say she is just about the only ..."


Thanks for the spoiler-hiding tip Amber, I'm still a little noob at this.

Cersei doesn't top my hate-list either. She's a strong woman, for sure, but I can't see her playing the suffragette. I think she would play the woman's oppression card only when it suits her and her alone, not the overall benefit of womankind. Cersei is all about Cersei.

I saw the word 'multi-dimensional' being used a while back. I would say that is probably the perfect word to describe asoiaf overall. George goes out of his way to show there is no black and white. The bad guys (a lot of the time) have streaks of good in them and visa versa. I think this depth is what really draws me into this series above all else.

And Amber (view spoiler)


message 23: by Karen (new)

Karen Azinger | 256 comments Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "That's interesting, because while I think Cersei is a great character, I honestly cannot stand her at this point--which is the point, I suppose, seeing as how she's a villain.

By ..."

I agree, Jayme, I love Syrio! I would love it if he was not really dead. After all, we never did see his death.


message 24: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments That's actually reassuring, that Syrio's death is apparently never shown or referenced in the later books. Sweet.


message 25: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Mitali wrote: "I think that Cersei might pay lip service to the idea of supporting women's rights if she thought it would be politically beneficial for her. But she would never sincerely support such a notion, an..."

I think I pretty much agree with this. What I'm trying to say isn't coming out correctly, had to give it a once over.

What I mean is I see Cersei as something of a protofeminist, I believe. She has lots of feminist ideals and she could probably enact quite a few of them, but generally, yes, she's only going to do this at her own benefit. That doesn't mean she might not be a influence on a younger generation to give women more freedom. I could see Cersei taking actions that could result in a short term win for her but not anticipate that it would also have a long term affect on how woman are viewed in leadership and social terms.
Though, it is pretty subjective, definitely depends on how you want to read it, or take whats being said. I always kinda see Cersei as a fictional Eleanor of Aquitainne, to the best of my understanding of both characters at least. (excuse my spelling, might have got that wrong)


message 26: by Jenny (new)

Jenny (gielske) | 107 comments I don't see the dancing master fleeing from a foe before killing him... And the kingsguard wasn't replaced was he?? Or would this question and it's answer be a spoiler?? No 'hide spoiler' option on the app. So if so... Sorry 'bout that...


message 27: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments For Jenny
(view spoiler)


message 28: by Mitali (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Amber wrote: "What I mean is I see Cersei as something of a protofeminist, I believe. She has lots of feminist ideals and she could probably enact quite a few of them, but generally, yes, she's only going to do this at her own benefit. That doesn't mean she might not be a influence on a younger generation to give women more freedom. "

Ok, I actually agree with this. Sure, Cersei could certainly wind up being an inadvertent feminist, as a role model to other women (who don't know her personally - anyone who did know her wouldn't admire her). There's a distinct lack of powerful women in Westeros - understandably enough, given that it's a feudal society. Any woman who did manage to gain and then keep power would be a role model to other women, whether she wanted to be one or not. For example, Arya admires the ancient warrior-queen Nymeria. For all Arya knows, Nymeria may have been as much of a bitch and power-crazy maniac as Cersei. But the mere fact that Nymeria was a powerful and independent woman means that she has become a role model for independent-minded young women like Arya.


message 29: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Thank you Mitali, that is exactly what I was trying to say, just far better articulated.

LOL! Perfect!


message 30: by Jenny (new)

Jenny (gielske) | 107 comments @ amber.
too bad I cant read spoilers with the app and it has been removed anyway. PM maybe??


message 31: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Oh sorry Jenny, duh. I thought you meant that you couldn't tag the spoilers above not that you couldn't read them.

Which I totally should have known because I have the app on my android, just rarely use it.


Anyway, this shouldn't spoil too bad, I don't even know why I tagged it, sometimes I just get all into hiding things on here.

The KG is still alive, it was Meryn Trant, he bears at least a mention in every novel so far.


message 32: by Peterc84 (new)

Peterc84 | 2 comments Hey guys. I'm new to goodreads and the Song of Ice and Fire series. Currently 200 pgs into Clash of Kings. This is definitely a unique and well told story.


message 33: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Hey, Peter. What's happening?

:)

I'm up to page 679, or 697, or something, and all hell has broken loose. Wow.

(view spoiler)


message 34: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Holy. Crap. I kind of expected...

(view spoiler)


message 35: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Yep...that just happened. LOL.


Feel free to throw your book and then hurriedly retrieve it. :)


message 36: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Actually, I had to read back through those few paragraphs a few times just to be sure.


message 37: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments LOL!

Sorry Jonathan.

I take you haven't watched the show then? I read the books after the first season of the tv show so I was better prepared.
But it was still rough.

Now I'm really anticipating your getting through the other books, it's the first "shocker" of many. GRRM crushed my soul. Now I'm dissapointed if a book ends without some modicum of personal tragedy. LOL.


message 38: by Gordon (new)

Gordon  (gmonie) | 81 comments I think I might have psychological scars.. wait that's watching the Buffalo Bills lose wide left too... then Jim Carrey make a movie off that game. LACES OUT! ok, back to my hole, heel....


message 39: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Nope, I haven't watched the show yet. The first season is the first book, right? As long as there are no spoilers, I'm game to watch the show.

By the way, nearing the end of the book. The Lannisters must die.

All of them.


message 40: by Karen (new)

Karen | 48 comments *ALL* of them? Tyrion? :(


message 41: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Crap. Good point. Forgot about him!


message 42: by Peterc84 (new)

Peterc84 | 2 comments I keep hearing of a looming tragedy. Can't wait to see what happens next...


message 43: by Karen (new)

Karen | 48 comments There are lots of tragedies! These books keep you on your toes, that's for sure :)


message 44: by Mitali (last edited Sep 16, 2013 05:11AM) (new)

Mitali | 117 comments Peterc84 wrote: "I keep hearing of a looming tragedy. Can't wait to see what happens next..."

It's not a looming tragedy, it one of many, many, many tragedies. ;)


Amber wrote: "Now I'm dissapointed if a book ends without some modicum of personal tragedy. LOL. "

Lol! I know what you mean - I just read GRRM's novella The Hedge Knight a few days ago, and was shocked when it ended (view spoiler)


message 45: by Kenneth (new)

Kenneth Geary (KagedBooks) (kagedbooks) Karen wrote: "*ALL* of them? Tyrion? :("

Ahh but is Tyrion truely a Lannister?

Sidenote: I'm pretty sure he is, i've just seen other theories out there, of cource there are theories for everything one guy even suggested that Theon would be the only one left alive at end of the series haha


message 46: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments At this point, in the first book, it almost seems like the Greyjoy house is an afterthought. But I can tell Theon is here for a reason.

Up to page 796.


message 47: by Karen (new)

Karen | 48 comments @Jonathan, pretty much everyone is there for something. I cant wait to see (read) your reactions when you get to clash of kings. There was so much I didn't even catch on my first read, but once you've got the characters more or less sorted, and the storyline straight in your mind, re-reads turn up tons of little gems!


message 48: by Gordon (new)

Gordon  (gmonie) | 81 comments Its safe to say the 5 books so far, will provide many "holy shiznit! Bruce Willis is a friggin ghost himself!! LOL" (6th sense, sorry if I spoiled movie)

But the journey ur starting will effect ur emotions exponentially, just think about how much u have grown to learn the background, love for, & depth of POV characters & the great supporting ones, plus so many more u haven't read about.

It reminds me of that 3-dimensionsal chess game that was always in Star Trek that also had like 3 boards on diff. levels making the game more complex... Enjoy it like a 15-year old single malt or a fine aged wine, cheers!


message 49: by Jonathan (new)

Jonathan Gillespie (jonathancgillespie) | 62 comments Just finished the first book. Holy crap, Martin couldn't have ended on a better scene.

I don't know who to root for!


message 50: by Bryan (new)

Bryan Which scene is that, Jonathan? It's been over 15 years since I've read the first book, and I can barely remember which scenes are in which book anymore.


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