Questioning Society discussion

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message 1: by Christy (last edited May 18, 2009 10:56AM) (new)

Christy Stewart (christyleighstewart) What are your opinions of it? Has it survived? Is it necessary? Do women now a'days take advantage of it? Do they use it as an excuse?

My opinions are not favorable and are summed up in this faux-essay I wrote. It's meant to be funny so as not to be too preachy.

You need not read it, it's just my 2 cents.


Feminism

For my final in Women’s Studies I have decided to write an essay on how the feminist movement has given me a better life in modern America. I would like to begin by sharing that this subject is close to my heart as I am a strong independent woman who’s respectability and intelligence wouldn’t have been recognized if it weren’t for my fore-mothers. I am also grateful to my father who has paid for my tuition through five changes of my major and two times on academic probation. Also, thank you Mr. Albion for letting me make up this final after I was out last week because of my period. I have super bad cramps and you were the only teacher to not be a dick about it.

For as long as humans have been evolved enough to form social structures women’s place has been below that of a man (besides the pagan traditions which recognized the sacredness of a woman’s body and those matriarchal societies that prove to be less violent and more spiritual; those aren’t as important because our protestant roots say so). Women have been seen as property and as faceless wombs, denied literacy or any chance at discovering any aptitude in a professional or even artistic field.

Christine de Pizan (1363-1434) is seen as the first feminist of the western world and is credited with being the first women writer recognized for her talent. Even then, we have a classic and wildly popular novel such as Frankenstein (1818) that was written by a adept female writer, Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, who had to publish her novel anonymously. It wasn’t until 1831, during it’s second publishing, was she credited with the work. Since then, women have come a long way and we have a plethora of, not just female writers, but material written by women for women. Romance novels are a multimillion dollar business. Even in this economic climate, Harlequin saw a $3 million gain in the last quarter of 2008. Glamour, Vanity Fair, Cosmopolitan, and In Style are just a few of the best selling magazines. These publications lift up and empower women to be self-sufficient and cutting edge in the 21st Century. Woman are becoming more self motivated and informed of hygiene with articles such as “Wake Up With Sexy Hair”, they are being empowered to take charge in relationships with innumerous and almost indistinguishable articles such as “Sex He Craves: We Help You Discover His Most Dirty-licious Fantasias - So You Can Deliver On The Naughty Goods”, learning to be forward thinking and planners with “Why Men Cheat In August”.

Even men’s magazines have begun to elevate the image of women in such publications as Maxim where each issue is filled with sexy modern women. No longer are women chained to an oven, forced to wear wrist and ankle length dresses. Now, we are allowed to wear what we choose, what can arguably be the constant visual reminder of how far we’ve come and what women now represent. Tube tops, low rider jeans, thongs; these things no longer have a dirty or even low class contagion, they are simply popular styles of dress for women. We aren’t sexual objects, but sexual beings who can express ourselves without labeling ourselves. This progression has even reached our children with infant and toddler versions of the same tube tops, low rider jeans, and smaller diapers to accommodate these garments.

Women are so prominent in the media in our modern age that we have limitless role models for ourselves and our children. Ground breaking work such as “The Feminine Mystique” written by Betty Friedan and feminist icons such as Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Geraldine Ferraro, and Robin Morgan were good enough for our mother’s generation, but we have a culture that is now saturated with iconic women. You cannot turn on a television without being inundated with images of bold and alluring women, confirming the undeniable proof of woman’s sexuality being a necessity in modern capitalism; validating our worth with every purchase from Carl’s Jr, AX Body Spray, and donation to PETA. A modern day feminist icon, Tyra Banks, is not only a pillar of entrepreneurial excellence – what with her years of modeling, producing and staring a popular realty show on modeling, producing a reality show about modeling, and producing and hosting a talk show that primarily features modeling – but she has dedicated her life to encouraging women to accept themselves and find their own self worth, and by that she concentrates solely on encouraging women to accept their bodies and find their self worth in the acceptance of said bodies.

We stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us and demanded their rightful place in this world. I feel a great weight as a woman to live up to the responsibility I’ve been given. To be a great daughter, mother, baby-momma, and the sexiest most sexually empowered girl at the all night kegers. This semester has born in me the flame of hope to one day become a leader in the modern feminist movement. I can and will be the force that blows new life into it, giving a face and name to associate with instead of those women now who’s names I don’t know because they weren’t listed on Wikipedia.



message 2: by Milana (new)

Milana (tutuintopointe) | 779 comments Mod
I think that some females take advantage of it. But others believe strongly in it.


message 3: by gina~* (new)

gina~* "Mr. Albion for letting me make up this final after I was out last week because of my period. I have super bad cramps and you were the only teacher to not be a dick about it."


LMAO I loved the whole thing and "smaller diapers to accommodate these garments" LOL Thanks. This made my day.

And as for my feeling on Feminism:
"I know what some of your big-city, no-bra-wearin', hairy-legged women's libbers might say." (drop dead gorgous) But I don not want to be a modern woman. I mean, I'm glad I can vote, own property, and learn to read and such but I dont want a career. call me old fashioned but I wish At 21, I was married, staying home with children while my husband was out bringing home the bacon. I dono just my opinion.


message 4: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) lol hairy-legged


message 5: by Dan (new)

Dan Wait wait wait... women can vote?


message 6: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) Yeah. We just let you guys think you sill have power.


message 7: by gina~* (new)

gina~* Dan wrote: "Wait wait wait... women can vote?"

HA HA HA Dan, what a cute little joke you just made.


message 8: by Christy (new)

Christy Stewart (christyleighstewart) YoudontGnomie wrote: "LMAO I loved the whole thing and "smaller diapers to accommodate these garments" LOL Thanks. This made my day. "

Thanks, it was all for you ;)


message 9: by Christy (new)

Christy Stewart (christyleighstewart) Oh Rick <3 Are you married?


message 10: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) lololololololololololololol




message 11: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments Rick wrote: "Hi YoudontGnomie,

"But I don not want to be a modern woman. I mean, I'm glad I can vote, own property, and learn to read and such but I dont want a career. call me old fashioned but I wish At 21, ..."


Hmmm, I personally am a post-feminist humanist and think that everybody needs to be capable of caring for themselves and responsible for caring for themselves. If you (where you is any value of male, female, or "dunno") want to make some sort of contractual relationship with other male/female/whatever humans to split the work of existence, that's fine, but with the sole exception of physically bearing children and feeding the little pubs homemade milk, men and women are fairly equally well equipped to manage the tasks of life, from changing diapers and feeding children milk by unnatural means straight through to fixing cars, going to work every day, and unclogging clogged toilets.

The "freedom to not have a career" isn't a freedom, it is a luxury. My wife is a physician, I'm a physicist. We both work. We both raised our kids, with me doing slightly more than half of the work. We both do laundry, sweep, clean house. I do slightly more than half of the housework (including all of the cooking) both because I know how to cook and she doesn't, and because she works much longer hours up front as a physician than I do.

I like Heinlein's description of what humans should be able to do, the one that ends with "specialization is for insects", I think it is in the interlude of Time Enough for Love. Basically, every human should be able to do everything well enough to get by if they need to, especially if they have children, as at any moment fate can intervene and leave you caring for yourself and your kids alone. It is also the only way a person can really have the maximal degree of self-respect.

I think that is what feminism was really all about. Woman as "chattel", woman with limited opportunities, woman as an "object" who was cared for as if she couldn't care for herself, could never have real respect, not even from herself. Any equitable deal you work out with a partner that shares equal responsibility for the tasks of a shared life is fine, but that division should really be done without minimal sex-based role differentiation, with the exception of those few tasks that are determined by biology.

rgb

P.S. -- and yes, I know that men can lactate if you stimulate their nipples enough, but I do draw the line there;-)




message 12: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) "P.S. -- and yes, I know that men can lactate if you stimulate their nipples enough, but I do draw the line there;-)"

Learn something new every day. Plus, is this to be thrown into the proof-for-evolution pile?


message 13: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments No, it but it does give one a new perspective on God's subtly robe'd nipples on the Sistine Chapel. Secondary sex characteristics are clearly needed by an abstract eternal infinite unitary being. Jesus might have needed nursing, if Mary proved inadequate as a mother.

rgb


message 14: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) They needed something to balance out his Santa-beard. :)


message 15: by Charity (new)

Charity (charityross) The "freedom to not have a career" isn't a freedom, it is a luxury.

I'm a stay-at-home-mom (SAHM) and that's what people keep telling me. Of course, some days it's hard to see it that way. Ha! :-)


message 16: by Charity (new)

Charity (charityross) I kid, I kid. Seriously, it is a luxury that I'm very thankful to have. However, there is a very good chance that I will go back to work at some point in the future when my kids are all in school full time and I stop being the center of their universe. It may not be "work-work" (a career; a job)...it may be more extensive charity/volunteer work (pardon the pun from my name) or it may just be going back to school for a while.


message 17: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments Charity wrote: "The "freedom to not have a career" isn't a freedom, it is a luxury.

I'm a stay-at-home-mom (SAHM) and that's what people keep telling me. Of course, some days it's hard to see it that way. Ha! :-)"


Hey, no arguments from me. Raising small children, especially, is a hell of a lot of work. As I said, my wife is a physician, and did her internship starting three months after our first son was born (she literally finished medical school and went into labor the nex day). We had our second son right as she finished her residency, and the third in the middle of starting up in private practice post-fellowship. I was never quite a SAHD, but I did the vast majority of small child rearing in our household.

But one day, those kids get old enough to be in school most of the day. Then they get older, and don't need a lot of direct "care" when they are home -- presence yes, watching them every minute that they aren't asleep no. So what do you do then? Housework isn't a full time job. Caring for kids older than maybe seven or eight isn't either.

The devil finds work for idle minds... having a job is better.

rgb


message 18: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments Sorry, our remarks crossed midstream, but, "Exactly. Like that."

rgb


message 19: by Charity (new)

Charity (charityross) But one day, those kids get old enough to be in school most of the day. Then they get older, and don't need a lot of direct "care" when they are home -- presence yes, watching them every minute that they aren't asleep no. So what do you do then? Housework isn't a full time job. Caring for kids older than maybe seven or eight isn't either.

The devil finds work for idle minds... having a job is better.


Yes, I agree. I actually posted just a hair quicker than you on this very subject. :-)

I'm seriously considering getting a Master's in Library Science. And the nice thing is that if I'm working at one of the public libraries here, they will pay for my courses required to get my MLS degree.

I would love to be a Librarian! The idea has been calling out to me for some time now...I don't think I can resist it much longer. :-)


message 21: by Charity (new)

Charity (charityross) Ha! I love it!!


message 22: by Christy (new)

Christy Stewart (christyleighstewart) Oh my, you really know how to charm a lady ;)

That only get's me more dedicated.


message 23: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) I. want. that. shirt. :D


message 24: by Christy (new)

Christy Stewart (christyleighstewart) Rick wrote: "Using irony against me at this point constitutes hitting a man when he's down.

Not cricket, my friend. No, not cricket at all.

Kids these days, I swear. What is this world coming to?"


I have a reply in response to the 'hitting a man when he's down' but it's lascivious and I know there are younger members here, so I'll let you slide on this one.

And also, I may be a kid...but I'm legal.


message 25: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments H wrote: "Oh my, you really know how to charm a lady ;)

That only get's me more dedicated."


BTW, H, your icon is rather amazing although a bit anachronistic. All those bullets would have had to have been fired at the same instant...

rgb



message 26: by Christy (new)

Christy Stewart (christyleighstewart) Hey thanks, but I didn't make it (Goodness, I wish I could do something like that)

It's from Dead Irons, drawn by Jae Lee.


message 27: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) well I have always thought men and women are equel as it was in the begining so whenthis is not to offend any one ok well when eve ate the apple she offered it to adam as well so they they were both punished equally Imean the guyhas to go out and work which has its pain and the women has kids which that lso has its pains so the pains and accomplishments of every person male or female who ever life I would say are equal not saying one is better then the other yes the man in the leader in all the inforcer but the women is the gentle caring one the balanc each other like the ying yang symbol you balance the past present and the future and I will garentee you will life a prosperous life no matter what the situation or problem might be


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

Good old sexism....its brilliant, don't ya think?


message 29: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments techno wrote: "well I have always thought men and women are equel as it was in the begining so whenthis is not to offend any one ok well when eve ate the apple she offered it to adam as well so they they were bot..."

I agree that they are equal, but their equality isn't established by the myth to which you refer (which never happened and which was created to justify some four thousand years of patriarchal woman abusing sexism that continues today in very nearly its original Bronze Age form in the world of primitive orthodox Islam that keeps women in purdah, performs radical resection of their external genitalia, and summarily sentences a woman to death for being raped or for adultery or for just pissing off a man.

This is true in both the old and the new testament -- woman is blamed for the Fall (which never happened because we evolved over the last million years, not created six thousand years ago) by Paul and held to be inferior to her owner be it her father or her husband. Women are told to be quiet in church and listen to the wisdom of men with their mouths shut, with their heads covered, and to follow their husbands and obey them in all things.

Women can be enforcers, men can be gentle and caring. The yin-yang symbol is indeed a much better model than the bible for a humanist balanced view of equality -- all men have the capacity for emotions and many of the behaviors of women; all women have the capacity for the emotions and many of the behaviors of the men -- that's those little opposite colored dots in the middle of each of the two halves. Yes, you can pick up your newborn baby and soothe its cries and comfort it, and yes, a woman can blow an intruder who threatens her home and loved ones away with a shotgun.

Equality is not identity -- women and men have very different hormonal arrangments and somewhat different instincts and wiring. Women and men are physically unequal, with men in general being physically stronger (with overlap and exceptions) Obviously men stand to pee and women bear live young. Both can nurse a baby -- yes guys, if your nipples are stimulated long enough you too can lactate. But in a just society, men and women are equal in law and in economic opportunity and are socially equal.

rgb


message 30: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) "Both can nurse a baby -- yes guys, if your nipples are stimulated long enough you too can lactate."

Legit? X) Vestigial function from when all life was hermaphroditic?


message 31: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments Lauren wrote: ""Both can nurse a baby -- yes guys, if your nipples are stimulated long enough you too can lactate."

Legit? X) Vestigial function from when all life was hermaphroditic? "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_lac...

No, I'm certain that this was God's Will and built into our original design deliberately. What else would nipples on men be used for?

Fortunately, I had an understanding wife, and she did not force me to nurse our mutual children. Men tend to get moobs when they get old and fat anyway (fat generates estrogens, and dietary estrogen analogs are at an all time high) and we don't need them to be even more stretched out and blobby than they get anyway...;-)

Nipple stimulation releases, IIRC, estrogen and progesterone and one can accomplish it without the use of hormone treatments, but it takes a rather long while...

rgb



message 32: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) XDDDDDDDDDDD

This is totally my new threat when my guy friends annoy me.


message 33: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments Lauren wrote: "XDDDDDDDDDDD

This is totally my new threat when my guy friends annoy me. "


Sadist. Sorry, it was prolactin, not progesterone. I'm not a biologist, I'm a physicist. My wife, on the other hand, is a physician and she has all SORTS of evil tidbits like this. She also likes to point out that XY just means that our chromosomes are broken relative to "perfect" XX.

rgb


message 34: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) She's right, ya know. :)

Nope, just practical. XD


message 35: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) rgb I don't mean to offend you but the bible the real bible not that fake stuff you see today is based on acurate facts so I don't know where you got the idea that what the bible says isn'intirely true i agree with you on the middle east stuff and the abuse of women that is wrong but when the aple was ate about 3.5-4.5 billion years ago sin was a door opened to the world so bad things have happened cause of that action of the apple ok


message 36: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) "but the bible the real bible not that fake stuff you see today is based on acurate facts so I don't know where you got the idea that what the bible says isn'intirely true i agree with you on the middle east stuff and the abuse of women that is wrong but when the aple was ate about 3.5-4.5 billion years ago sin was a door opened to the world so bad things have happened cause of that action of the apple ok"

Real Bible? Oh, do tell.


message 37: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) the king james version is the original bible not that translated version and if yu read in the scriptures god says do not change his words for he will be angry and well you will be in deep trouble thats why I feel sorry for those johova witnesses they switch things arround and I would hate to see them wiped out I mean they are people but just confused peoplethey have been desieved


message 38: by Rindis (new)

Rindis So... a version of the bible written sixteen hundred years after Christ is the "original" bible?

o.0

That's a bigger space-time wedgie than Star Trek has ever had.


message 39: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) well different prophets in the bible actually wrote the bible cause god told them to write that part of the bible thenthe bible has been made into english because I do not know if english was the language written on the bible I believ it was hebrew that was the language but now we have to read the bible it has to be english so there is your answer Nathan and what sorta teacher are you


message 40: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) I said I do not know if english was the original langauge written in the text of the bible ok Nathen P.s. can you reframe from how you say correcting grammer on here I mean you are a teacher who teaches english for 180days or more in years so can you just reframe from doing your school work on goodreads thank you if thats not too much to ask


message 41: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) my bad I had a grammer error it is refrane


message 42: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) wll sir I have helped hundreds of people over te years and I do not need some self riches person to tell me how contradict my self ok no one is perfect so excuse me if I am just human ok


message 43: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments techno wrote: "well different prophets in the bible actually wrote the bible cause god told them to write that part of the bible thenthe bible has been made into english because I do not know if english was the l..."

If you really want to learn about the history of the Bible, obtain and read Misquoting Jesus. Then you won't have to wonder about things like what language it was written in and whether or not you can trust things like the KJV. Just FYI, there is no such thing as the "original Bible" -- the Bible is a more or less arbitrary sampling of the many gospels that referred to Jesus, selected some 300 years after Jesus died. That's sort of like us selecting books about somebody that lived in 1700, today. The original books attributed to Paul and Paul's cronies date back around 25 years after Jesus died. The Gospels were written no earlier than 30 years after he died by people who had never met him, and who may not have met anybody that knew him. They were then copied by hand by nearly illiterate people -- sort of the way you sound since you persist in refusing to use capital letters, punctuation, and correct spelling to make your points clear -- and the originals, the first copies, the second copies... all were lost. They didn't have printing presses, they didn't have books. If you wanted a copy of the sermon or letter that was read to you at an early Christian meeting, you had to make it yourself. Unfortunately, you probably had never attended school and couldn't read or write Greek, so you tried to make a copy by copying the letters one at a time.

Three hundred years of these illiterate copies of copies of copies occurred before Constantine hired actual scribes to copy the "Bible" as officially chosen by the Council of Nicaea, a bunch of people who hadn't the faintest idea of what Christ was really like but who knew quite well what their congregations wanted him to BE like. There was very nearly a "war" between two factions with entirely different versions of Christianity at the meeting and the losers were hounded into extinction afterwards (murdered and their writings banned and burned). Then there were the many e.g. gnostic sects that didn't even get invited who suffered the same fate. The earliest full copies of the Bible differ in many ways from the earlier (and presumably more reliable) fragments from earlier still.

The King James version is particularly erroneous by accident of fate. It was poorly translated from a poorly written Greek manuscript from roughly the twelfth century (over a thousand years after Jesus died). It just happened to be the one that was handy in the library of the small town in Germany where the Bible was first typeset for a printing press, and so it became the "standard" not by design or because somebody chose it for its quality, but because it was handy. It sucked, compared to much earlier and presumably more reliable version, although none of the versions we have are at all reliable.

It's one of the really amusing things about people who claim the Bible is infallible. Say what? Even if you grant that the original words were infallible, the one thing we know for sure is that the original words have been lost forever. What we have is copies of copies of copies to the Nth power, all handmade, each one with errors, additions, deletions corrections, relative to the original. We have over 5000 manuscript copies of the NT that survived from before the printing press, and no two are alike.

rgb


message 44: by Robert (new)

Robert (rgbatduke) | 213 comments Oh, and it is "refrain", not reframe or refrane. That's exactly how the meanings of things change when documents are hand copied by people that don't write well. Imagine copying a letter in Old English or Spanish for a friend, who then copied it for another friend, who copied the copy for yet another friend, with nobody actually knowing how to read or write Old English or Spanish or Chinese. You leave out a stroke on a letter, it changes a word to a different word, the entire sentence is changed. After a dozen such copies, who knows what the original said?

rgb


message 45: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) sir you are a lot better at speaking then Nathan and J so this is a compliment to you ok and here is a link as well ok
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bibl...


message 46: by Lauren (new)

Lauren (djinni) "That's a bigger space-time wedgie than Star Trek has ever had. "

XDDDDD

"I said I do not know if english was the original langauge written in the text of the bible ok "

Well, as it wasn't written in ENGLAND, it's probably not in ENGLISH.


message 47: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) the bible takes place in the middle east area - i am pretty sure no english there


message 48: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) yes isreal egyp africa even is where the bible was written


message 49: by techno (new)

techno (cyborg) EGYPT i mean


message 50: by Liz (new)

Liz (lizgore) ;)


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