Richard III discussion

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message 1: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Barb, this book may be of interest to you. It is less a study of Richard than a story about the Lovell cousins, Philip and Francis. They are front and center. You might particularly enjoy the picture of the marriage between Anna and Francis. It is quite different from SKP's version.


message 2: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments Excellent, Thanks Ikon!


message 3: by MAP (new)

MAP | 181 comments Is it biography or historical fiction?


message 4: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Fiction. Very fictional fiction. Not particularly well written but it passes the time


message 5: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments As is my cowardly habit, I have set this book aside until I can muster the will to read about the ending again. One of these days, I will have the strength to go straight through a Richard book. Heh!


message 6: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments Ikonopeiston wrote:
"As is my cowardly habit, I have set this book aside until I can muster the will to read about the ending again. One of these days, I will have the strength to go straight through a Richard book. Heh!"

Honestly, I'm not trying to be cheap here, or hijack the thread, but because my Richard doesn't die on Redemore and I bring him into the 21st-C, you might be able to read it straight through without bursting into tears.

The thing that always gets to me about Richard III is that he was so young when he bought the farm. Every time I think of it, I feel like someone punched me in the stomach. That's one reason I brought him into the present--I don't have to change history to keep him alive.

Joan
http://www.joanszechtman.com/


message 7: by Susan (last edited May 15, 2009 06:57PM) (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments One of the things that really didn't strike me until I started writing about these people was how young so many of them were. Buckingham was just a couple of months over 28 when he was executed; Edmund Beaufort was only around 33 when he was executed after Tewkesbury.


message 8: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I do not dissolve into a puddle of tears at the thought of the ending. I have not cried for many years and am not about to start now. It is just that I cannot bring myself to re-live those last hours over and over. The horror and the pity are overwhelming and I must take the time to collect myself.

I keep hearing that quote from "The Duchess of Malfi" (I think it is.) "Cover her face, mine eyes glimmer, she died young." Therein lies much of the tragedy. They did not have the luxury of time. So I grieve for them, particularly for Richard who might have been one of the great kings of England.


message 9: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments Ikonopeiston wrote: "I do not dissolve into a puddle of tears at the thought of the ending. I have not cried for many years and am not about to start now. It is just that I cannot bring myself to re-live those last hours over and over. The horror and the pity are overwhelming and I must take the time to collect myself.
"

Sorry, I didn't mean it literally. My reaction is pretty much the same as yours. I almost always skim over the last part, imagining Richard's state of mind.


message 10: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments When is your book to be released? I did a pre-order, received feedback and nothing since then. I am eager for it to be in my hands. ;)


message 11: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments I had hoped for the beginning of June, but now it looks like it's going to be mid/late-June. Basset Publishing won't take orders until the book can be shipped. But it's at the printers now and they are checking through everything to make sure there are no missing fonts, images, etc.

Thank you so much for pre-ordering. I can't wait to have it in my hands either.


message 12: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments This age thing is something that's hit me when writing the book. Consider Clarence for example, curca 1470-71. He was 21-22. OK, he did stupid things. So did I at that age. It's just through God's grace I didn't have the power to do serious damage.


message 13: by Nell (new)

Nell Corkin | 13 comments Susan wrote: "One of the things that really didn't strike me until I started writing about these people was how young so many of them were. Buckingham was just a couple of months over 28 when he was executed; Ed..."

This has struck me, too, Susan. Perhaps it's a sign of my own advancing age, but I often wonder if different decisions would have been made by various people if they had the benefit of more experience.

I've also wondered if people in Richard's time would have been more mature than people of the same age today, due to the adult responsibilities that were thrust upon them at an early age. Richard's being in command of troops while still in his teens comes to mind.

Another twist is added by the recent scientific findings that the brain's abitily to make decisions, especially under stress, doesn't fully mature until the early 20's; and that because he frontal lobe in particular isn't fully developed, emotions tend to get the upper hand until then.


message 14: by MAP (last edited Jun 16, 2009 09:44AM) (new)

MAP | 181 comments That part about the brain is really only partially the reason why teenagers are emotional (and emotionally unpredictable.) Much of it has to do with socialization and expectations of people that age. In circumstances and cultures where teenagers are expected and required to respond with maturity and responsibility, they do amazingly well. This occurs both in cultures where teenagers are considered adults, as well as in western culture where teenagers are thrust into extraordinary circumstances.

We all seem to, nowadays, approach human beings from a very medical model of what's going on inside the body determines everything about a person; how they eat, behave, react, etc. But in doing that, we ignore the context in which they live, including expectations and conditions which may require them to live, in a sense, above and beyond what their mere chemical reactions are telling them.

Study after study shows that teenagers are much more a product of their situations and outside expectations than they really are of their brain development. It's hard for us to imagine now how a teenager can lead armies, but there are certain parts of the world where even today those responsibilities are given to them, and they carry it out admirably.

Sorry, random behaviorist/contextual psychology rant. I get very tired of going to CNN and seeing stuff like "Enjoy being alone? It could be your genes." And then when you get your hands on the REAL journal article, it shows like a .07 correlation between gene bla bla bla and enjoying being alone. Which means, yeah, it may have been statistically significant, but it's hardly significant in any other way. But does CNN pay attention to that? No, they do not.
*simmer*


message 15: by Nell (new)

Nell Corkin | 13 comments MAP wrote: "That part about the brain is really only partially the reason why teenagers are emotional (and emotionally unpredictable.) Much of it has to do with socialization and expectations of people that a..."

MAP wrote: "That part about the brain is really only partially the reason why teenagers are emotional (and emotionally unpredictable.) Much of it has to do with socialization and expectations of people that a..."

No need to apologize for the rant. I also find news reporting of scientific studies deficient in details
especially if the details would deflate the drama of the headline,

The studies you mention don't surprise me too much, After all, Richard wasn't the only teenager ever to shoulder such resposibilities and succeed. Alexander the Great, for example, was made regent by his father at the age of 16.


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