The Relevance of the Spartan Model Citzen in todays world.

[Matthew]

After reading this dramatized acount of arguably Ancient Sparta's greatest moment in history i was led to look into who the Spartan's were and what their society was really like. After several books and numerous websites i fell there are valuable lessons to be learned from Spartan culture that can help us in our current international stage. I am currious if anyone else has read the novel, and had simialr feelings, and if so what are they? Any one else out there feel the Spartan model needs to be revisited in some form or another?

[MG]

I agree with you that in some ways, Spartan culture perhaps should be revisited.

If you enjoyed this book, you should consider reading Robert A. Heinlein's "Starship Troopers". It also explores a Spartan-type society in the future, where one of the prerequisites of Citizenship requires Military Service, the argument being that only by serving can one truly appreciate citizenship.

Keep in mind that the Spartans are known for their warrior culture, and little else. There was no Spartan art, music, architecture. When not fighting, the society was very agricultural. It can be argued that Ancient Sparta was a victim of it's own over-specialization. When you make a name for yourself slaying dragons, what happens when all the dragons are extinct?

One thing I do find facinating was the way the Spartan government was set up. Two kings: one acted as the Head of State, while the other acted as Commander-In-Chief. Another thing about Sparta that was unique was the empowerment of the women of Ancient Sparta. They were perhaps the most liberated women in all of Ancient Greece.

I agree with you that we can learn from, and apply lessons from, the Ancient Spartans in our society. Especially the concept of spending your entire life striving for the glory of your nation, and the secuity of all its citizens.

[Sam]

I see nothing admirable about a culture that structures it's being around warfare for the sake of warfare. Spartan men (those who survived being murdered by their parents for physical imperfections) had only one career choice: the military. The actual work was done by the Helots, a serf class kept in squalid servitude so that their masters could be freed to rape and pillage. Mindless brutes in my opinion.

[A.G.]

Their focus on defense is admirable but they had to base their entire economy on Helot slaves to do it. Nothing like having a constantly growing population of people that hate everything you stand for.
I think the real reason for the second king was to keep the helots from tearing the city apart while the other king was on the warpath, rounding up more helots.

Of course, I realize that I might not have had the freedom to say that if there weren't Spartans at the hot gates. The same number of Athenians or Corinthians would never have had the same effect. I know they were there as well, but the core of that force was the Spartans.

[[deleted user]]

Ideally having two kings was for the purpose of checks and balances. But I don't think that the Spartans, no matter how admirable their courage and fortitude could act as a role model for any desirable society. There is no freedom of choice, their defensive posture was due to the need to stay home to keep the slaves (who made up the vast bulk of the population) in their place. The closest equivalent to Sparta today would probably be North Korea.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Aye, the crypteia isn't something I'd want to re-introduce.
"Let us cull the serfs!"
The initial poster says: "... there are valuable lessons to be learned from Spartan culture that can help us in our current international stage.."
Don't see how that can be the case, they were a very insular people...how can that help in our "international stage"? Just stay at home and avoid interaction until forced into it?
And they did tend to miss battles when it suited due to conveniently timed religious festivals.
So, no...I don't think an insular militaristic society with a penchant for killing it's own workers is something to emulate in this day and age.

[[deleted user]]

Historically, one thing that has always been a disaster (among many) is an effort to turn back the clock, to fit a society into the ideals of a society that has long since passed. Each culture evolves around set circumstances and events.

[Trekscribbler]

Sam wrote: "I see nothing admirable about a culture that structures it's being around warfare for the sake of warfare. Spartan men (those who survived being murdered by their parents for physical imperfections..."

Hmm. Well, given the fact that many historians regard the Spartans as the single greatest reason why Western civilization became possible, I'd give them a bit greater kudos than you would.

[Warren]

The notes above easily depict several of Spartas flaws, but as with every group, their is good and bad elements present. I won't discuss the bad, as it is clearly depicted above, and quite well. I will touch on some of their strengths:

The good of the many outweighs the good of the individual. Now, Sparta took this to the extreme, again, as noted above, but having people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater society would benefit said society greatly.

Required military service. Many nations do this already. (I'm certain Israel does, and I believe several European countries as well.) As an American, I wish I could've went to the military, but was actually unable due to physical limitations, but if we all had an expectation, I think our understanding and care for those who serve longer would increase to what it should be.

These are two that spring to mind when I think of Sparta, but it's been at least 5 years since I read Gates of Fire and probably just as long since listening to Hardcore History podcast going into the Spartans. They were a fascinating people, in the same way as the Mongols, Romans & Persians. Each of these people did some good things (for the people and the world at large), but each exhibited horrific flaws. As with many things, it would do good to look at the good, examine its benefits, as well as the bad, examining its reasonings and how each of us can fall into similar traps if we fail to be diligent.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Trekscribbler wrote: "...given the fact that many historians regard the Spartans as the single greatest reason why Western civilization became possible, I'd give them a bit greater kudos than you would..."

How are they "the single greatest reason why Western civilization became possible"?

[Trekscribbler]

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Trekscribbler wrote: "...given the fact that many historians regard the Spartans as the single greatest reason why Western civilization became possible, I'd give them a bit greater kudos than you w..."

Seriously, folks. All ya gotsa to do is Google it. It's been written about plenty.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_the...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/ind...

http://eliot-elwar.suite101.com/the-s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta

http://www.redstate.com/nikitas3/2010...

[Old-Barbarossa]

Trekscribbler wrote: "Seriously, folks. All ya gotsa to do is Google it. It's been written about plenty..."

Aye, I'm in the middle of a binge on books about the period, but I can't see Sparta as the "single reason"...there weren't even any Spartans at Marathon.

[Old-Barbarossa]

I think there is a huge emphasis on Thermopylae in Spartan Hx as a defining moment. From Herodotus to Frank Miller.
Now fair enough it was important, but to ignore every other "decisive battle" during the Persian wars and say that this one action was the hinge point is over simplistic.

[Trekscribbler]

Isidore wrote: "Trekscribbler wrote: "Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Trekscribbler wrote: "...given the fact that many historians regard the Spartans as the single greatest reason why Western civilization became possible,..."

Oh, it's so sad when folks don't r-e-a-d. I said "Google" it and you can find a few on your own instead of me having to do all the legwork for you.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Trekscribbler wrote: "Oh, it's so sad when folks don't r-e-a-d. I said "Google" it and you can find a few on your own instead of me having to do all the legwork for you..."

So you make a statement and can't be bothered justifying it? Shift the burden onto anyone that disagrees?
Why your logic and debating style is flawless sir.

[Trekscribbler]

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Trekscribbler wrote: "Oh, it's so sad when folks don't r-e-a-d. I said "Google" it and you can find a few on your own instead of me having to do all the legwork for you..."

So you make a stateme..."

Yawn.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Trekscribbler wrote: "Yawn..."

And wit on a par with Oscar Wilde...

[Jane]

Spartans: nothing but proto-Facists!

[Antonios]

Jane wrote: "Spartans: nothing but proto-Facists!"
O.M.G mate....

Before you express an opinion firstly you need to realize and to understand certain things.

First of all you must study deeply the history and the culture of a city-state like Sparta. To see the historical facts and to learn about their way of life and their laws. After you need to be able to understand the period and the world that these people were living into.

Saying that the Spartans were proto-Facists, sows that you have no idea about those people and that you have not study enough. For your information I am saying you that Sparta were perhaps more Democratic than Athens. We can tell this from the way that state decisions were taken, about the position of the tow kings, the 4 efors, and the position of the females in the everyday life.

[Antonios]

Old-Barbarossa wrote: "Trekscribbler wrote: "Seriously, folks. All ya gotsa to do is Google it. It's been written about plenty..."

Aye, I'm in the middle of a binge on books about the period, but I can't see Sparta as t..."


No Spartans were at Marathon

Spartans are not the single reason. But they were one of the reasons that western civilization was possible.

The one single reason was the freedom friendly, intractable and rebellious spirit of the ancient Greeks.

[Antonios]

MG wrote: "f you enjoyed this book, you should consider reading Robert A. Heinlein's "Starship Troopers". It also explores a Spartan-type society in the future, where one of the prerequisites of Citizenship requires Military Service, the argument being that only by serving can one truly appreciate citizenship."

Hmmmm…
I agree with you but not totally. It’s not the same any more. The world is totally changed now. It is not necessary to serve in the army in order to be a citizen. But I can honestly say that you have to serve to the army if you want to be political leader.
I have served to the Greek army as all the Greeks. To be honest it did not make to feel more citizen than before.

[Chris]

The Spartans symbolize a lot of valuable virtues that can be applied to modern day life. Strength through unity, loyalty, dedication to a common cause. They stuck by their values which is why they may have come accross as insular, but I admire the way that they stuck to their values and standards because they believed that it was for the good of their society.