RW: About the Plot (Full Spoilers)

[Nicole]

I finished reading this last night and what's really been bothering me is that I'm not sure this book has a plot. It's kind of like an adventure tale where instead of jumping from one action encounter to the next, the characters wander from one Big Idea to the next Big Idea. Personally, I found this kind of troublesome and a bit boring.

The revelation of the "plot" and how Teela's luck was responsible for everything that happened during the story annoyed me. I get that it's supposed to lead the reader to contemplate predetermination like: What if the ringworld engineers and their society only existed to give Teela her little playground? What if the puppeteers only developed as a sentient species to create the birthright lotteries so Teela could be born? What if all of humanity only exists to create Teela Brown and without her "luck" we would never have existed? I get it. I get the Big Idea, but frankly, it's kind of a letdown. For me, the book was like trapezing through all these really big ideas, wondering what the point was (hoping it was building to something,) only to be slammed with deus ex machina and a big shrug at the end. Anybody else feel this way or think I'm totally wrong?

Edit: Some hidden spoilers in this thread may pertain to other books written by Larry Niven.

[Mark]

I enjoyed it, but I also read almost all of Niven's Known Universe series prior to reading this, so I already was familiar with the species and background. I think that makes a difference

[Jordy]

I agree that genetically engineered "luck" is a huge plot device letdown. It's not sci-fi. Its actually not even fantasy. It's anti-sci-fi. It makes no scientific sense.

[Ben]

I completely agree with you Nicole!

[Dazerla]

Jordy wrote: "I agree that genetically engineered "luck" is a huge plot device letdown. It's not sci-fi. Its actually not even fantasy. It's anti-sci-fi. It makes no scientific sense."

Completely agree with you, I found the very idea that 'luck' could be selected for laughable. I also found Teela's amount of luck pretty unbelievable as well. Even if luck is a trait I don't think someone with Teela's luck would have been produced via selection as quickly as she was.

[Katie]

Julia wrote: "Jordy wrote: "I agree that genetically engineered "luck" is a huge plot device letdown. It's not sci-fi. Its actually not even fantasy. It's anti-sci-fi. It makes no scientific sense."

Complete..."

Ah but her luck made her be produced soon enough to be able to go on the expedition to the Ringworld. As pointed out in another thread it's like the magic in Among Others...how far back does it go? What exists because of it? Just how retroactive can it be? There's no way to know. Either you find uncertainty fun or you're the kind of person who wishes that was answered...I'm a bit torn.
I only thought about all that after though, to me it seemed the luck wasn't the whole point but instead the hinting that (view spoiler)[the Engineers and their ram ship expeditions led to there being humans on Earth...or was that not what was implied by saying their route probably took them near Earth? (hide spoiler)]

[Joshua]

Katie wrote: hinting that the Engineers and their ram ship expeditions led to there being humans on Earth...or was that not what was implied by saying their route probably took them near Earth?

Niven has a habit of redacting his lore with every new book. In the sequels it's revealed (view spoiler)[that the ringworld engineers in fact were a species from another of his books called the Pak. The Pak have two stages of life, they're docile ape like creatures until they turn 30, then they eat some special fruit and turn into super intelligent beings, who's only purpose is to protect their younger Pak brothers and sisters. Long and short of it is the entire ringworld was built by these guys to house their Young Pak, and they also colonised other worlds (like Earth). And then they inevitably died out, leaving only the unevolved Pak to evolve, on Earth into humans and on the ringworld into the vast number of humanoid species. (hide spoiler)]

[Alan]

Joshua's spoiler isn't just a minor spoiler for the Ringworld sequels but a major spoiler for one of Niven's other books (my favorite of his) so I wouldn't click on it unless you've decided you're not that interested in reading any of the Known Space books he wrote from Ringworld through Ringworld Engineers.

[Joe Informatico]

Joshua wrote: "Niven has a habit of redacting his lore with every new book."

Well, that's how SF world-building worked at the time, settings were built ramshackle and haphazardly. George Lucas didn't have Return of the Jedi plotted out when he was shooting A New Hope. Star Trek only had the vaguest notions of what the Klingons and Prime Directive were when the series started. This was also around the time the idea of a multiverse became popular, and a lot of SF writers started weaving their different books and series together into a unified setting, even when it was clear they weren't originally conceived that way. So I can forgive Niven on this score.

[Nicole]

Katie wrote: "Julia wrote: "Jordy wrote: "I agree that genetically engineered "luck" is a huge plot device letdown. It's not sci-fi. Its actually not even fantasy. It's anti-sci-fi. It makes no scientific sen..."

I think there's a larger issue here than just Teela's luck. Throughout the book Niven frequently applies biologically concepts in a problematic way. I might be able to suspend my disbelief and agree with Katie on the Big Idea if it wasn't for the fact that Niven misuses or erroneously uses the terms related to evolution on several occasions.

The biggest example I can think of for this is the Man-Kzin wars being used as a selection mechanism. Basically, I don't think we know enough about the Kzin to conclude this would be effective, and based on what we know about humans, this would definitely not be an effective selective pressure when attempting to produce a less aggressive species. For a selective pressure to work, an organism must be killed before it has a chance to breed. An individual who has two offspring has the same evolutionary impact on their species whether they die at 20 or at 90. We have no idea how kzin are allowed to breed. What if only those who distinguish themselves in war are allowed to breed? Presumably aggression was a useful trait in kzin society already and methods for selecting for it are already embedded in the culture. Why should the war change it? If every soldier deployed into the war is allowed to produce one child before they leave, while non-soldiers are not then it wouldn't matter that the cowardly, left-behind kzin survived the man-kzin war because in a genetic sense they would still be eliminated while the aggressive phenotype was maintained.

Okay that was rather longer than intended, but I found several other examples of problematic biology while reading this book. If the biology had been more believable and well applied throughout I might not have had a problem with Teela's luck, but considering how much effort was put into the physics it's rather disappointing that Ringworld seems to handwave it's way through biology.

[Katie]

Nicole wrote: "Katie wrote: "Julia wrote: "Jordy wrote: "I agree that genetically engineered "luck" is a huge plot device letdown. It's not sci-fi. Its actually not even fantasy. It's anti-sci-fi. It makes no ..."

I guess I just assumed the Puppeteers observed the Kzinti long enough to be sure this strategy would work, they seemed very patient and focused on finding the safest, surest path to their goals. I didn't mind not having all those things explicitly stated since the Puppeteers are also very secretive. I just took it as not being able to flesh out every idea in this one book and figured since Niven wrote a ton in this universe he would focus on different ideas elsewhere.
As for misuse of terms either my brain was able to gloss over the mistakes or I am not informed enough to catch them, probably both depending on the part of the book. Some of the paragraphs packed with scientific terminology and explanations did make my eyes glaze over a little.

[Dazerla]

Nicole wrote: "I think there's a larger issue here than just Teela's luck. Throughout the book Niven frequently applies biologically concepts in a problematic way. I might be able to suspend my disbelief and agree with Katie on the Big Idea if it wasn't for the fact that Niven misuses or erroneously uses the terms related to evolution on several occasions."

This is exactly my problem with all Niven's "biology" in the book. While I know that the field of biology has advanced significantly since the 1970s, it hasn't advanced that much. Biologist by the time knew how selection worked and the most probable timescales that it would work on.

Niven however doesnot seem to have bothered to research anything beyond a very basic understanding of how biology and evolution via natural selection works. And yet he uses it as important plot points in his book. This with well researched and thought out physics.

I'd like to add something to your very good point about the kzin. Even if fewer of the aggressive males came back from the wars and before they left they had produced few or no children, which I agree a highly aggressive culture would ensure that those with high aggression would produce the most children. Those few surviving aggressive males would most likely produce more children due to sexual selection with more females than the less aggressive males who remained. Assuming the kzin don't pairbond, which the book implied they didn't. Moreover, the survivors either by luck or by skill survived to produce more childeren than their comrades who died. Ending up selecting for the surivors instead of the non-aggressive.

However, there is a selective force for intelligent species that does work on the timescales Niven came up with. Cultural evolution. The kzin don't evolve to calmer, they've simply lost too much of thier population to continue to be this aggressive. Their culture changes, not thier biology.

The only reason I just mentioned Teela was first, it's the worst example. I'd also already vented on another post about the whole idea that one sex would be non-sentient and the other(s) sentient in not one but two of the represented aliens and unlikelyhood of that happen. I was trying not to go on another rant, but I guess it's too late now.

[Alan]

The time spans in the book would seem too short for evolutionary changes sufficient to consider calmer Kzin or luckier humans to be new species but if one thinks of it as breeding cattle to select for and intensify certain traits, the times in the book seem sufficient to me.

I have more trouble believing in luck as an actual innate trait that can be inherited than that a breeding program to encourage lucky people to have children together might intensify such an attribute over 10-20 generations.

[Trike]

Jordy wrote: "I agree that genetically engineered "luck" is a huge plot device letdown. It's not sci-fi. Its actually not even fantasy. It's anti-sci-fi. It makes no scientific sense."

Yeah, I never understood how Niven got tagged with the "Hard SF" label. He's write Space Fantasy in the vein of Doc Smith, Star Trek and Star Wars. I mean, he has humans originating near the galactic center for crying out loud.

Fortunately, Ringworld Engineers has more of a plot and a story, and the stupid luck thing is diminished nearly to oblivion.

[Trike]

Nicole wrote: "The biggest example I can think of for this is the Man-Kzin wars being used as a selection mechanism. Basically, I don't think we know enough about the Kzin to conclude this would be effective, and based on what we know about humans, this would definitely not be an effective selective pressure when attempting to produce a less aggressive species. For a selective pressure to work, an organism must be killed before it has a chance to breed. An individual who has two offspring has the same evolutionary impact on their species whether they die at 20 or at 90. We have no idea how kzin are allowed to breed. What if only those who distinguish themselves in war are allowed to breed? Presumably aggression was a useful trait in kzin society already and methods for selecting for it are already embedded in the culture. Why should the war change it? If every soldier deployed into the war is allowed to produce one child before they leave, while non-soldiers are not then it wouldn't matter that the cowardly, left-behind kzin survived the man-kzin war because in a genetic sense they would still be eliminated while the aggressive phenotype was maintained."

Julia wrote: "I'd like to add something to your very good point about the kzin. Even if fewer of the aggressive males came back from the wars and before they left they had produced few or no children, which I agree a highly aggressive culture would ensure that those with high aggression would produce the most children. Those few surviving aggressive males would most likely produce more children due to sexual selection with more females than the less aggressive males who remained. Assuming the kzin don't pairbond, which the book implied they didn't. Moreover, the survivors either by luck or by skill survived to produce more childeren than their comrades who died. Ending up selecting for the surivors instead of the non-aggressive. "

Back in the 1970s we had a drought of science fiction, so it was possible to read nearly everything that was published. As a result, I read the Known Space books as they were released.

The questions you guys are asking here about the Kzin are answered in other books, and more fully fleshed-out in the Man-Kzin Wars series.

However, to save you the trouble of having to read all those books, I'll just sum it up here: (view spoiler)[Short version: Only Kzin who had earned a name in battle were allowed to reproduce. Even if a Hero survived one of the Man-Kzin Wars, he was branded a failure and was denied a name. Only the best warriors were sent against mankind -- and "best" by Kzin standards meant those who were most aggressive.

Longer version: So the way the Man-Kzin Wars managed to breed the most aggressive traits out of the Kzin were both genetic and cultural. The hyper-aggressive Kzin were mostly all killed. Unlike Speaker-to-Animals, they had poor self-control. When they saw their comrades dying by the score they didn't retreat, they screamed and leaped. Kzin didn't understand the notion of retreat; they didn't believe in discretion being the better part of valor. They believed in kill or be killed. Period.

So what happened was that almost all of the most aggressive members were promoted up through the ranks, because they were the best fighters. Kzin command is based on birth but also a weird meritocracy. If you could kill your superior and justify it, you got his job. You only got a name by doing something heroic. Once you became a Hero and got your name, you were allowed to breed.

Problem was, all the Heroes died because it never occurred to them that anyone could beat them after 1,000 years (or more) of winning. So when they sent their A team against Mankind, nearly the entire fleet was destroyed. The survivors often committed suicide in shame. So for the next war they sent their best... but they were still the B team. Then the C team, and so on.

By the time they get to the last war, the vast majority of the really aggressive Kzin were all dead, and none of the survivors were allowed to breed, because they were -- by Kzinti definition -- cowards, undeserving of names.

Eventually they got it through their thick heads -- because the ones left sometimes paused for a moment to consider before doing their patented screaming-and-leaping thing -- that maybe the humans' way of fighting wasn't so cowardly after all. Which is why the cult religion of the Kdaptists started when Kdapt-Captain came to believe that God made Man in his image, not Kzin. Someone like Kdapt-Captain would've been unthinkable in Kzin culture just a generation before. (hide spoiler)]

[Ric]

Needless to say, Larry Niven has filled a small library with his stories of Known Space, enough for readers to dig many nuggets of true SF gold. Ringworld is but the surface.