A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

99 views
Season 3---> Stannis The Puppet Baratheon

Comments Showing 1-23 of 23 (23 new)    post a comment »
dateDown arrow    newest »

message 1: by Stefy (new)

Stefy Nacchia (stefynacchia) | 7 comments Starting to say I don't particularly like him, however I noticed watching the last season that Stannis seems too much Melisandre's Puppet,I mean in the books there is some kind of respect between them and also between Stannis and Davos!! Did you get this impression too?


message 2: by Aly (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 113 comments I dunno. In the books I kind of got the whole "Stannis/puppet" thing. The show could be coloring that a bit, as I haven't read the books in awhile. I am currently doing a reread so I'll see how I feel after.


message 3: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments I hate show Stannis. I use his scenes as bathroom breaks.

That storyline is in a shambles if you ask me.

Almost every scene has him blubbering after Melissandre like a puppy, but my impression of him is that he has no real interest in her, other than to gain more power so he can sit the throne.
He is way closer with Davos, in my personal opinion. He actually lets Davos go and makes him Hand after he was imprisoned for considering killing Melissandre. Stannis never locked up Davos, that was the previous Hand and Mel.
And Davos doesn't even get in trouble for sending Edric Storm away. I've always thought that Stannis told Davos about that plan, so that Davos would do exactly what he did and Stannis wouldn't have to make the choice.

Honestly, if I had to choose a King, I'd choose Stannis in the novels, because he would put shit as right as possible and be just without personal bias.

However, they do a poor job of portraying this in the tv show.


message 4: by E. (new)

E. (boneyarddiva) | 1 comments I like Stannis. He is the true heir to the throne & he's got a great hand of the king in Davos. I'm also liking the actor playing Davos.


message 5: by Deeptanshu (new)

Deeptanshu | 27 comments Amber wrote: "I hate show Stannis. I use his scenes as bathroom breaks.

That storyline is in a shambles if you ask me.

Almost every scene has him blubbering after Melissandre like a puppy, but my impression..."


I agree , while Stannis has his faults I think he is the only one who has the strength of will and integrity to hold together Westeros.


message 6: by Dionna (new)

Dionna | 308 comments I think that the show portrays him exactly the way that he is in the books. He's always whining about the IT being his by right, and that his motivation for pursuing the IT is duty , when it's a lie. He wants to be king because he was jealous of Robert and Renly's popularity and he feels that he deserves it because he has always obeyed Robert orders and received the shitty end of the stick in return.

He married the ugly woman, not that a pretty woman would have made any difference with Stannis, he got Dragonstone instead of Storms End, even-though he was older than Renly, and that he and his family almost starved to death holding it. Robert made Jon Arryn hand instead of him, because he is a rigid sanctimonious prick, who wanted to outlaw brothels because he doesn't care for sex. He expects everyone to behave like he does, while he has no problem changing his mind on a issue when it suits his purpose, and is unforgiving of others.

He doesn't care about Melisandre or R'hllor or his troops freezing and starving to death if IT will get him what is his by right. The only person that he loves is Shireen, which is one of his few humanizing attributes.


message 7: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments I think that the show portrays him exactly the way that he is in the books.

He doesn't care about Melisandre or R'hllor or his troops freezing and starving to death if IT will get him what is his by right. The only person that he loves is Shireen, which is one of his few humanizing attributes.

Hmm...theres a conflicting statement if I ever read one...

I agree that in the novels he doesn't care about Mel or R'hllor or freezing and starving troops all that much. He cares about getting the throne. I don't hold that against him. If I did, I'd have to hold it against Robb, Balon, Dany, The Martells, Aegon, Jon Connington...jesus the list goes on and on.
But the fact remains the show doesn't portray that. He clearly cares for Mel in the show and he literally just told Davos that he intended to kill Gendry so that thousands of others could live....He also goes and confesses his infedelity to his wife, demonstrating his feeling and regret for possibly hurting her further.
I mean, the man is literally crying for Mel not to leave him when she goes off in search of Gendry which is simply not his character, characters who've known him his whole life in the novels comment how the man never shows emotion nearly as much as people comment how Tywin never smiles.

Also, lets just face it, Robert was unfair to Stannis, primarily because they didn't see eye to eye on many issues, like Robert's constant whoring and drunkenness which pretty much drowned the Iron Throne in debt. Robert wanted someone who would pander to him, so thats what he got and thats why he died. Even Robert knew it in the end, he was a great warrior, but a terrible king.


message 8: by Dionna (new)

Dionna | 308 comments After reading five books, I see that Littlefinger and Jon Arryn are more responsible for the IT debt than Robert's drunkenness. Aerys was an awful ruler, however, having Tywin as Hand the throne was prosperous.

I don't fault Stannis for wanting the throne, I fault him for lying about the reasons that he wants it. Also, he never cried when Melisandre left to capture Gendry, watch it again if you must. He tried everything that he could think of in order to get her to stay. All of his actions were empty gestures. He was sad and broken after the Blackwater loss and believed Melisandres nonsense about him losing because she wasn't with him.


message 9: by Nermin (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments Jon Arryn? I thought it was mentioned in the book 1 (by Renly, I think) that Robert didn't listen to Jon Arryn's advice about not thworing ridiculous amounts of money on tournaments and such things. I can't say how great a role Littlefinger plays in bunkrupting the Kingdom but I would never say Jon Arryn is more responsible for it than Robert. I mean, we witnessed it in the first book that Robert is not very good at listening to his Hands. Also despite rebelling against Aerys, he is neither just nor a good ruler. And he definitely was unfair to Stannis. Stannis defended Storm's end for a year living off rats and how did Robert appreciated that? The way he treated Stannis is enough to make any man bitter. I don't care that Stannis is a hard grim and that he hates brothels(well, actually I respect him for that), he is a better man and he would make a better ruler than Robert. I don't think it's the first time I'm saying it but he's my favorite Baratheon and I hope in the end, he will get the respect and appreciation he deserves.


message 10: by Dionna (last edited Jun 17, 2013 12:35AM) (new)

Dionna | 308 comments Yes, Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn hired and trusted Littlefinger with the Thrones finances. Tyrion could barely make heads or tails out of the books because of Littlefingers finagling. I will not be convinced that his rapid gain in wealth was not partly due to embezzling it from the Throne.

Brothels are a way of life in Westeros and the only reason that Stannis hates them is because he is uncomfortable around women and probably doesn't like sex because his lacking in that area. I'm pretty sure that the brothels in the North paid their taxes to Winterfell. I hate sanctimonious people who want everyone else to be as miserable as they are, which is why I hate Stannis. He refuses to admit that he wants the crown for himself because he feels that he deserves it. He continues to lie to himself and everyone else that it's all about duty and it's his right. Big, balding, clenched jawed, no shadow having liar. lol


message 11: by Nermin (last edited Jun 17, 2013 01:08AM) (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments Regardless of what you believe, no one(in the books) has ever said anything about Littlefinger embezzling the throne. the only time the issue is discussed in the books Renly says Robert didn't heed Arryn's advice. If Robert's been king for 16 years and he is been drinking, whoring and spending money on tournaments, i don't know why it comes as a surprise to you that the treatury is almost empty.

I am sorry but are we defending brothels here? Brothels where women are forced to sell their bodies so that they can get by? What does it have to do being with 'uncomfortable around women' and not liking sex?
Look, I get it that you don't like Stannis for some reason. but honestly, stop talking about prostitution as if it is something that women are happy to do and Stannis is this vile cruel man who wants to take all the fun out of their lives. You are obviously very biased against Stannis and are always trying to discredit whatever he does.

Also, if Stannis manages to improve people's lives so they don't have to have sex with some ugly old men just to earn money, then more power to him.


message 12: by Dionna (new)

Dionna | 308 comments We cannot say that all of the women in Westeros brothels were forced to be there, and yes, I am defending them. The choices for the poor to survive was slim pickings either they would have to be a servant, septa, silent sister or a whore. Like Shae chose to be a whore over a pot girl and was happy with her job.


message 13: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Shae chose to be a paid whore over being her fathers free whore...thats a big difference from being just a pot girl. Not to mention she is hardly happy. She uses sex to try to gain freedom, power, and a future for herself because that is the only skill she ever learned. Her characters main goal is to escape sex work, as proven by her desire to be with Tyrion exclusively, and when that fails, her agreement to testify against him in exchange for a mance and a husband.

I can agree that most woman aren't "forced" to be in brothels, as in no one was holding a gun to there head, but circumstances lead them there, such as being poor and having few other choices - thats called exploitation and it's not healthy or good for society, something we can see just by looking back at our own history, even as short a time ago as the Industrial Revolution.


message 14: by Nermin (last edited Jun 17, 2013 02:29PM) (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments , but circumstances lead them there, such as being poor and having few other choices

That's what I meant when I said women are forced to sell their bodies, though I'm sure there are women who are forced into prositution by "someone holding a gun to their heads" too.


message 15: by Dionna (new)

Dionna | 308 comments There are women that actively seek it in order to make large sums of money because they choose to, her ein present society, but, we are talking about Westeros where our modern ideals do not apply.

Also, Shae could have been lying about her father being that she told Tyrion two different stories about why she ran away from home. She was actively seeking a being a whore to one person, like Tyrion. That manse and husband was payment for sex. All marriages in Westeros were based on prostituting their daughters in order to enrich their fathers powers. Let's not get it twisted.


message 16: by Nermin (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments All marriages in Westeros were based on prostituting their daughters in order to enrich their fathers powers.

Fair enough.


message 17: by Aly (new)

Aly (Alygator) | 113 comments I don't think I totally agree with that statement, Dionna. I don't think every father in Westeros has been prostituting their daughters for power. Ned agreed to Sansa marrying Joffrey not for power for himself but because his wife and Sansa both wanted the marriage so bad. He wasn't totally agreeable to the match. It made him uneasy, but his daughter was so ridiculously happy over it that he agreed. And Tywin wanted to marry of Cersei again not for his own more power, but to diminish hers. I think that statement could just as easily be applied to the men in the story too.

What Amber says about women being in brothels still applies to Westeros and not just our own society. Prostitution isn't a modern society construct, it's the oldest profession in the world.


message 18: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments I agree with Aly. Most marriages in high born Westerosi society, I could go with that, but nothing is 100%, not to mention the Commoners and Free Folk of Westeros were capable of marrying for love or by choice.

But I also agree with Dionna on some level, I'm not against the exchange of money for sex between two completely willing adults, and in american society at least, I think its something we could probably regulate and make work, however, at the point Westeros is socially, outlawing something so ripe for abuse is a better choice until advanced cultural and social concepts, such as feminism and equality were more accepted by the general population.

As for Shae lying, if you want to go there, anyone could be lying, so I'd prefer to stick with the widely accepted and cited background story until Martin says otherwise.


message 19: by Courtney (new)

Courtney | 4 comments I dislike Stannis. Basically because he wants to be king because it is "his right," and he feels that his rights as second born brother have been ignored forever. IE, Storms End vs. DragonStone, not becoming the Hand. Varys has it right, being king or queen isn't a right, it is a duty. Stannis has got it all wrong, and by taking on the Red God, he will never be accepted by the people of Westeros.


message 20: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments So, do you like Dany? Because she only wants the throne because it's "her right" as well. She wasn't even raised in Westeros and has little knowledge even of the entire culture.
Aegon is in the same boat as well. Even if he isn't the "real" Aegon, he still believes he is, and believes the throne is his by right.

TBH, the throne should by Stannis's by the Laws of Westeros. Even Ned agreed with that and it's simply fact that Robert purposely denied Stannis many rewards he did deserve simply because of there inherent ethical and moral differences, yet Stannis still never complained outright until after his brother's death, and treated him with Kingly respect.


message 21: by Dionna (last edited Jul 12, 2013 11:38AM) (new)

Dionna | 308 comments Who cares what Ned thought he's dead. Daenerys may have started out thinking that ruling is her right, but she is slowly understanding that it is a duty, which is why she is remaining in Meereen. Stannis in his quest for the IT has become blinded to what is really important, the Others.


message 22: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments True, but Ned was a fair and just individual in the series, as is Davos Seaworth, as is Jon...funny how they are all supporting Stannis.

Also, Stannis is the only one who has done anything to fight The Other's off at all. He fairly realizes though, that he cannot stay at the wall if he wants to win his bid for the throne, it's not like he left them totally unmanned or something, plus he left Mel with them, even though he has seen the consequences of her being left behind before at the Blackwater. In my opinion that is a pretty selfless act.

I agree that Dany is growing up and starting to see the duty she owes the people in the Slave Cities, but mostly that is because after she freed all the slaves, she created a lot of misery by not having an actual plan to enact a fair government. Anarchy is a hard and harsh form of government. As much as I hated her marrying Hizdar, I was happy that maybe a peace could be reached from it. (until that idea kinda got destroyed :/)


message 23: by Dionna (new)

Dionna | 308 comments Amber wrote: "True, but Ned was a fair and just individual in the series, as is Davos Seaworth, as is Jon...funny how they are all supporting Stannis.

Also, Stannis is the only one who has done anything to figh..."


Davos and Jon don't know about Daenerys. Also, Jon could care less who is ruling Westeros, he only cares about there being any alive people left in Westeros. The help requests were sent out by the OLD Bear to ALL of the kings and Stannis, because of Davos and Melisandre, decided to show up. He still cares more about the Throne than he does about the realm.


back to top