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message 1: by Kj (last edited Jun 11, 2013 03:27AM) (new)

Kj Walker (Ciridae) | 2 comments My Collection of Theories.

1: Lanre/Haliax is not lax: "Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, lax, and Lyra. Lanre had no gift for names." It clearly shows that lax and lanre are differnt people.

2: Kvothe speaks to a god: I believe the god Kvothe speakes to is Aleph. Aleph is the only god shown in the king killer chronicles, Other than Taborlin. We can assume Aleph is a god because when Kvothe first begins his story he says that Aleph gave names to all things. I think its possible because Aleph was shown to be in the mortal world when Selitos formed the Amyr.

3: The Singers: 2 Groups were created when Silitos created the Amyr. One was the Amyr and the other group is the Singers. I think the singers are the "angels" who follow Aleph. I believe the "angels" are the singers because when Aleph was making them it said "The fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power." It says that they are gone forever from mortal sight. but it also says only the most powerful people can see them. Haliax and the seven are powerful people, They can only bring judgement on whatever came to pass after their creation, As stated by Aleph.
Since the creation of the Singers, The 7 have slaughtered many, and follow Haliax who seeks to bring destruction on the world until “Aleu fall nameless from the sky.”
“Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift.” I believe it was The singers who scared the 7 away after they killed kvothe’s troup. They could have seen what the 7 did, and were on their way to pass judgement on it, So the 7 sensed that they were coming and left.

4: The Sithe, The 7, and the Cthaeh: "Who keeps you safe from the Amyr? The singers? The Sithe? From all that would harm you in the world?"
There are only 3 groups of people capable of harming the seven. The Sithe are a group of fae. Who destroy anything that comes in contact with the Cthaeh. The Cthaeh is known to have a grudge with Cinder, If Cinder came in contact with the Cthaeh then you can see why the Sithe might want to destroy The 7.

5: Caudicus and Commander Dagon: I was of the thinking that Caudicus was Denna’s patron when she told Kvothe that her patron helped her write her song. She said she had been helping him with genealogies. Which is something Caudicus is known for. Im led to believe that Caudicus is alive, because of the way Commander Dagon gave his responses, When the Maer gave him the orders to capture him alive, and the subsequent way he was killed. He was supposedly killed when they couldn’t force him out of his hiding place, so they burned it to the ground. When receiving the orders from Maer Alveron, Kvothe noticed “subtle differences”
in Commander Dagon’s responses. Though the responses before and after were “Yes, your grace.” We can see no differences, and Kvothe did not say what the differences he noticed where. I believe these “subtle differences” were reluctance to obey. The Cthaeh said that the Amyr were very close to the Maer without his knowing. I think Commander Dagon could be one of the Amry the Cthaeh was speaking of.

6: Taborlin = Elodin: "When he awoke, Taborlin the Great found himself locked in a high
tower.” "Now Taborlin needed to escape, but when he looked around, he saw his cell had no door. No windows. All around him was nothing but smooth, hard stone. It was a cell no man had ever escaped.” "But Taborlin knew the names of all things, and so all things were his to command. He said to the stone: 'Break!' and the stone broke. The wall tore like a piece of paper, and through that hole Taborlin could see the sky and breathe the sweet spring air. He stepped to the edge, looked down, and without a second thought he stepped out into the open air. . .." “"So Taborlin fell, but he did not despair. For he knew the name of the wind, and so the wind obeyed him. He spoke to the wind and it cradled and caressed him. It bore him to the ground as gently as a puff of thistledown and set him on his feet softly as a mother's kiss.”
This is very similar to the story of Elodin breaking out of the asylum. Kvothe remembers this story when he jumps off the roof of the asylum. Thinking Elodin would use the name of the wind to keep him from hurting himself during his fall. Elodin also says he broke out of the asylum by learning the name of stone, and telling the walls to break. The story goes on to say:
"And when he got to the ground and felt his side where they'd stabbed him, he saw that it weren't hardly a scratch. Now maybe it was just a piece of luck," "Or maybe it had something to do with the amulet he was wearing under his shirt." "Now this amulet was worth a whole bucket of gold nobles, but on account of Taborlin's kindness, the tinker sold it to him for nothing but an iron penny, a copper penny, and a silver penny. It was black as a winter night and cold as ice to touch, but so long as it was round his neck, Taborlin would be safe from the harm of evil things. Demons and such."
This “amulet” is obviously a gram, evidence by "And when he got to the ground and felt his side where they'd stabbed him, he saw that it weren't hardly a scratch” and “It was black as a winter night and cold as ice to touch” a gram is known to get feel like chilled metal when someone is trying to attack the wearer of the gram with sympathy. Only a full Arcanist can have a gram. Elodin is known to have escaped the asylum, and he is a full arcanist so he is sure to have a gram.
Elodin knows kvothe new cloak is a shaed, Taborlin wears a “cloak of no particular color” by this we can assume Taborlin has been to the faen realm, So he has to be well the fae. The only way Elodin could know what a shaed is, is if he has also been to the faen realm. I don’t know if this is enough evidence, but this is why I believe Elodin is Taborlin.

message 2: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
1. I agree that these to are distinctly different characters. I think the general theory is that Iax somehow bonded with Lanre though and that they became one entity from two seperate to create some sort of super badass. I don't care for the idea, but with something like that it would still fit in the story. Personally, I think in all liklihood, Haliax either has no connection to Iax or he is simply Iax' pupil.

2. I think he probably speaks with Aleph too. Aleph is pretty much a God. He created the world before any of the other namers ever even came along and he decidedly took no sides during the turbulent Creation War or even afterward. He holds all to the same standard and doesn't take a side. Though I think you probably meant Tehlu, not Taborlin as the other possiblity. Taborlin is a folk hero, not a god, Tehlu is the god of the thousands of people in the Four Corners.

3. I like this idea, it's not bad at all. I never really considered it much since Aleph calls the beings he creates angels inherently. So I kinda always just saw them as a seperate group. I've had some inclination that the Singers were a group of people who lived in The Tahlenwald forest past the Stormwal. Kvothe references them once as being able to bascially use magic by singing.
Just throwing that out for consideration, I find your theory on this pretty sound though, I just never thought of it.

4. Okay, I think the quote suggests that more than just three groups can hurt the other six chandrian. (None of those groups have sucessfully harmed Haliax, so only six are in danger, even if Haliax died he'd just come back) Anyway, the quote lists three distinct groups, but then goes on to say, from all that would harm you in the world, suggesting that these groups aren't the only issue the other six chandrian have to worry about. Also, The Sithe are a lot more than just guardians of Ctheah, they have other roles to play as well, from waht I understand they are a bit like the Fae Police, guarding Ctheah is just supposed to be there most important role. But I agree on your general consensus that this group would destroy the Chandrian if possible. It's very suggestive that Cinder has spoken with Ctheah and we know for fact that Lanre/Haliax spoke with it. So that kinda dictates that they would indeed kill them if the chance arose.

message 3: by Soap! (new)

Soap! | 46 comments 5 - Caudicus had not white hair. Deoch saw Denna's patron once, and he said he had black hair. I think Denna's patron is Cinder.

6 - Taborlin stories have at least, 100 years. Elodin entry to the University at 14. And there's no mention about Elodin being 100 years around the University.

Agree with 1, 2, 3 and 4, but with some diferences.

(Sorry, I have no much time. Maybe later i'll expand my post)

message 4: by Soap! (new)

Soap! | 46 comments Oops, I wrote black hair. I wanted to say white. (I can't edit my post) Sorry.

message 5: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
LOL! I ran out of time to answer all of them too! tee hee.

But yah, I'll just say, search "Elodin" there will be plenty of posts that explain why he likely isn't Taborlin unless he can completely manipulate time of his own accord.

Which would be kinda cool and I am totally down for.

message 6: by Susan (new)

Susan (suzy87) | 1 comments Maybe he knows the name of time.......? He was cracked because it messed with his head too much..... That's just far out there thinking lol

message 7: by Soap! (new)

Soap! | 46 comments I remember Rothfuss said in an interview that the time has no name. That's would be cool. At the end, Elodin is the Doctor. I can imagine it.

message 8: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
It's actually kind of fascinating that so many people come to that conclusion independently. The desire for Elodin to be Taborlin is strong, I guess. Anyway, it was covered in the Admissions Interview

Does time have a name that could be learned?

Boy. That’s a really good question. Any question I can’t answer off the top of my head is a good one.

Elodin would probably have a really great reply to this….

My gut response, given about a minute’s thought is that no, it doesn’t. No more than, say, height has a name.

That’s not cannon though. I might be wrong.

message 9: by Soap! (new)

Soap! | 46 comments This makes me wonder about how Lyra could bring Lanre back to life.What she did is like to travel back in time. She did Lanre travel back in time, in some way. Think it: I supose Lanre died because of his wounds. Even if Lyra brings Lanre back to life, he should die again. But he come back without problem. It seems like a travel back in time.
But, what is the time?

message 10: by Kj (new)

Kj Walker (Ciridae) | 2 comments Aleph is basically god, lax is a master shaper, and Lyra and Selitos are both on their level with naming, or so says Selitos, if they are on par with god, then why not, or maybe Aleph helped Lyra

message 11: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Thanks for that Thistlepong.
How can Pat say, I'm not sure if thats cannon!? I sorta hate him right now LOL. Thats not an answer!

Anywho, I was thinking that manipulating time was outside of naming and jumped over into shaping. Obviously the shapers had some way to manipulate time in a fashion, they ultimately created Fae, where the laws of time are clearly much different than the ones the mortal world must abide. The fact he mentions Elodin in his answer here is a bit interesting.

To be completely speculative....
Maybe this is what leads to all the insanity, once you reach the level of a shaper, time may not require a name, you may just become aware of its circular motion (or shape *wiggly eyebrows*) which causes many brains to go into a form of overload because mortals were never meant to be namers or shapers.

(yes, I have accepted I may by insane myself)

I don't really think Taborlin is Elodin, but that is an interesting concept to me for sure.

@Soap - I think it depends on what his wounds were. The beast had a breath of darkness that smothered men. If he was only suffocated by it and Lyra brought him back to life, him being able to breath and not being mortally wounded could easily explain the problem away. Though I do think some details of the story are probably missing.

message 12: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Amber wrote: "How can Pat say, I'm not sure if thats cannon!? I sorta hate him right now LOL. Thats not an answer!"

He's been remarkably open about that sort of thing recently. By comparison to himself in the past, I mean. In one of the deck design hang-outs Shane asked somthing along the lines of whether Tehlinism ir whatever had any strictures on gender like, say, Christianity. Pat said he knew there was nothing about that in the books but not if it was true for the world. He went on to say something about leaving some stuff open like that so he could make a decision later.

I took his answer above as a subtle indication that there was no time travel involved in this story, but that if time had a name he could mess with that later.

message 13: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't watched a single deck design video.
I just haven't had the time lately, but I'm really stoked to see the artwork, it will go cool to get some definitive artwork for the characters.

I see where he is coming from in the world building sense, leaving some stuff open is a good move for later writing. But from the fan pov...

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! No loopholes aloud! *cries*

Okay...I'm done now.
I think you are probably right about that subtle indication, as much as I would totally love to have a time travelling epic fantasy...

Man I'm putting out so many crazy ideas lately I'm thinking I just need to write my own story. LOL.

(that will occur as soon as I find my patience...I think I left it lying around somewhere outside...)

message 14: by Deb (new)

Deb | 19 comments Ramblings. Please forgive if this is not laid out well….
In WMF K says that Felurian’s power hung about her like a mantle, it shook the air. It spread about her like a pair of vast and unseen wings. So using that the “wings” that tore from the backs of those who came to Aleph (p208 in paperback of Skarpi’s tale in NoW) would be powers. It goes on to say wings of fire and shadow, iron and glass, stone and blood. Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire that danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. It filled their mouths and they sang songs of power. Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold. This corresponds directly to what happened to K in WMF where he battles Felurian. (p. 710-714 paperback.) I note several things in this passage. The first is where K says he felt something deep inside himself and reached for it and a tense stillness settled inside of him, “the sort of silence that comes before a thunderclap.” Is this related to the silence he holds within himself? Then he felt awake “as if I was seeing with a new set of eyes” - seeing with his mind. This relates to Felurian where she told K that before men and the Fae, when there was still only one sky, there were those who walked with their eyes open. They knew all the deep names of things, and lived in peace with the world, knowing the space between things. Or in other words, knowing how things should have the right tension, I am thinking of your liberty ends where mine begins. But the shapers messed with this and caused much suffering. I will post another post on this aspect later.
Going back to his battle with Felurian, he sang out Felurian’s name in four notes of song. She passed her hand before her eyes and spoke a word as sharp as shattered glass. This must have something to do with “a sharp word” in the children’s poem. This was like an attack on K where he tasted blood and bitter rue. Is this where the Edema Ruh name comes from? On p.737 K say when he’d found the name of the wind in the Fae, he felt truly awake for the first time, true knowledge running like ice in my blood. Then it goes on to say he sang the notes of her name “tight and white and hard as iron” and her power shattered leaving nothing in the air but ache and anger. Then K cupped his hand and breathed a sigh into the hollow space within… this hollow space must have more of a meaning…. “I spoke a name.” (it does not say what name) I moved my hands and wove my breath gossamer-thin. It billowed out, engulfing her, then burst into a silver flame (white fire?) that wrapped her tight inside its changing name. This is when K could have killed her but chose not to. He calls this his “newfound magic.” He says he spoke again and the wind brought her down and that he made a tearing motion and the silver flame that once had been his breath became three notes of broken song and went to play among the trees. Then he goes on to say his power rode like a white star on his brow. And then he lost the contact with his “sleeping mind” and thus his power, and her power returned to her. And then the star on his forehead became no more than a pinprick of light, just as a stars looks to us from the earth. But are these stars related to the stars the shapers put into the sky? K says he knows the stars in a familiar way, the way he knew his own hands in the beginning of the first book and it was a moonless night.
So any way the silver flame appears to be related to the white fire and was his breath and also his power that was like a star? Did Aleph give his breath to the others wings, ie their own powers, and make them more powerful? As K used his breath (wind) to stop Felurian’s power, not enhance it, and gave him the ability to kill he if he chose to.
So it appears that the same thing that happened to Tehlu when Aleph said his long name happened to K. in Fae. We know K is not a god. So my speculation is that when the world was altered the ability of some to walk with their eyes opened, knowing the names of things was effected. And I think it has to do with when the moon is in the sky. Several times the books say that K looks wan or more solid. When his hair is flame or just red-hair colored. So it seems when the moon is full, he is more solid? This began at the university when Sim noticed it in him, before his entrance into Fae is recorded, tho he could have gone into Fae after his parent’s death as he was living in the woods.
Another thing I noticed was when Skarpi told the priest the Tehlu hated him, it sounded like he knew Tehlu personally, not as a god. And he had looked into K and knew K’s long name and used that name when he addressed him but K heard K his name just as he heard Fire when Kilvan spoke the long name of fire. So I think Skarpi was possibly on the same generation with Tehlu? And when Skarpi looked into K, he knew K was someone special and so the story continued in dockside bars in Tarbean. So these gods are really beings that walked the world before the division of mortal and Fae who have powers like Taborlin the Great, who I do think is Elodin btw. Elodin said he would not be much of a namer if he didn’t know what a shaed was so namers must travel into the Fae regularly. They know where the moon goes when it is not in the mortal sky. In doing so might they live many human years in the Fae realm, but still be young and in regular time in the mortal world?
Also, the candle in the riddle about the Lackless door and Lady Lackless rhyme must refer to a mortal as the song Bast sings in NoW, “how odd to watch a mortal kindle then to dwindle day by day. Knowing their bright souls are tinder and the wind will have its way. Would I could my own fire lend, what does your flickering portend?” So is a candle a mortal or a mortal that has found the Name of the Wind?

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