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message 1: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
The relationship between Marianne and Willoughby grows, Brandon hurries off to London, followed quickly by Willoughby, an unhappy Edward Ferrars visits the Dashwood’s finally, the Dashwood girls are persuaded to go to London for the winter


message 2: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 11
"Elinor attempted no more. But Marianne, in her place, would not have done so little. The whole story would have been speedly formed under her active immagination; and every thing established in the most melancholy order of disastrous love".

I like this first glimpse of Brandon's story... and probably this time Marianne immagination would not have gone too far.
Wlloughby and Marianne are unbearable in this part of the story, and Eleanor and Brandon are the victims of their behaviour.
Don't you think Jane Austen had a particular talent in describing annoying people?


message 3: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I do think Jane Austen had a talent for annoying characters; Mrs Bennet and Miss Bates and Aunt Norris are three others.

I feel so sorry for them. Willoughby and Marianne both act awfully and I feel so sorry for Elinor, but mostly for the poor Colonel!


message 4: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 12
"Most grateful did Elinor feel to Lady Middleton for observing at this moment that "it rained very hard", though she believed the interruption to procede less from any attention to her, than from her ladyship's great dislike of all such inelegant subjects of raillery as delighted her husband and mother".

Just a few words about this chapter. I really feel for Elinor, between Mrs. Jennings and her sisters she's forever blushing... Poor Elinor.
Maybe if she wasn't already in love with Edward, these circumstances may have brought her to appreciate Colonel Brandon in a different way...


message 5: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments Oh yes Jane Austen does have a talent in creating annoying character:Mrs Jennings, Emma, Mrs E, Miss Norris etc etc.


Colonel Brandon runs off to London followed by Willoughby. Now ain't that a bit suspicious?


message 6: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I feel for elinor as well. Poor girl. I always wondered about those two. If Edward wasn't in the picture would they have worked? What do we think?

It is very suspicious. Before I knew the story, I wasn't sure what was going to happen.
What did you think it all meant? It was very suspicious when Willoughby shortly disappeared after Brandon...


message 7: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments I think that Colonel Brandon was too much in love with Marianne to be really in love with Elinor, but they have something in common. They're both sensible, in a mature way, in a way that Marianne doesn't understand... but they are.


message 8: by Irene (last edited Jul 04, 2013 12:35PM) (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 13
"There are some people who cannot bear a party of pleasure. Brandon is one of them".

Isn't it strange how Marrianne is blind to the true nature of the Colonel? Is not a sign of a passionate character the sudden decision he make to leave Barton to attend to misterious problems?
And the gratitude I felt at the beginning towards Sir John and Mrs. Jennings for being kind to the Dashwoods tends to evaporate at this point of the novel. They're as annoying as Mrs. Bennet!
Moreover, at this point, Mariannes behaviour takes such a turn that I'm surprised that Mrs. Dashwood doesn't feel the need to enquire about her presumed engagement.
Regency social code was really strict about the conduct of an unmarried couple and Marriane impropriety was a great one.
However the wisest one is always the one who's less listened.


message 9: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 14
"Tell me that not onyl your house will remain the same, but that I shall ever find you and yours as unchanged as your dwelling; and that you will always consider me with the kindness which has made every thing belonging to you so dear to me".

I've always thought this is a strange request. It seems as Willoughby knows what's going to happen and asks for forgiveness in advance. He is quite arrogant too! To claim that they commit themselves to be kind to him whatever happens... are you kidding?


message 10: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments Soph wrote: "I feel for elinor as well. Poor girl. I always wondered about those two. If Edward wasn't in the picture would they have worked? What do we think?

It is very suspicious. Before I knew the story, I..."



He found out one way that his treatment of Eliza got around. His aunt probably had a say in him reforming, so he had to go off to please her.


message 11: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 15
"I hope not, I believe not", cried Elinor, "I love Willoughby, sincerely love him; and suspicion of his integrity cannot be more painfull to yourself than to me"

Elinor is always trying to suppress her common sense for the sake of her mother and Marianne's peace of mind. But she knows that something is wrong about Willoughby's actions.
Personally I don't like people who always see conspiracies everywhere, but Mrs. Dashwood is far too optimistic. The parallel between her and Mrs. Bennet is clear in my mind, the only difference is still that Mrs. Dashwood benefitted from a better upbringing.


message 12: by Irene (last edited Jul 05, 2013 03:32AM) (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 16
"Marianne would have thought herself very inexcusable had she been able to sleep at all the first night after parting from Willoughby. [...] Her sensibility was potent enough!"

Is this the first sentence were Jane Austen directly refers to Marianne sensibility? However, if it's not, I think is the most significant one.
The description of Marianne's anguish is one of my favourite passage of the first half of the book. It's soooo romantic and so gothic... something Anne Radcliffe's heroines would approve.

But there's more in this chapter...

"He was the only person in the world who could at that moment be forgiven for not being Willoughby".

The first time I read this novel I thought that Edward was gone to Barton Cottage just to make clear that he wasn't really in love with Elinor. Then I realized that probably he doesn't know how to tell them the truth (but I don't want to spoiler if someone following the discussion doesn't know the whole story!).
Shyness or cowardice?


message 13: by Diane (new)

Diane | 12 comments Irene wrote: "Mariannes behaviour takes such a turn that I'm surprised that Mrs. Dashwood doesn't feel the need to enquire about her presumed engagement. "

Austen exposes the folly of a parent acting as a friend to a child in times when the child needs a parent. Could Elinor and her mother talked some sense into Marianne had they known the truth?

Unrelated...until this reading of S&S, it never registered with me before that Brandon has a sister.

It's interesting to me to compare the mothers of the main characters/sisters in S&S and P&P. Mrs. Bennet will stop at nothing to get her daughters married. Mrs. Dashwood seems to be disgusted by such behavior (although she does promote the relationships her daughters have chosen). Both seem bad with money, willing to spend more than they can afford. They both can be foolish in their attitudes and behavior at times, even to the detriment of their children--Mrs. Bennet much more than Mrs. Dashwood, of course. Mrs. Dashwood is portrayed as much more likable. Her goal is the happiness of her daughters. Mrs. Bennet's is the marriage of her daughters, which she considers as the only path to security (and therefore happiness?) for her daughters.


message 14: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I agree. I think that Marianne was too awed by Willoughby and didn't see Brandon for who he was. the act was the act of a very passionate man, she just didn't see that.

"He is quite arrogant too! To claim that they commit themselves to be kind to him whatever happens... are you kidding?"
hahaha you are so right!!


"He found out one way that his treatment of Eliza got around. His aunt probably had a say in him reforming, so he had to go off to please her."
That is what you thought when you first read the story? I was never sure.

Regarding Mrs Dashwood vs. Mrs Bennet I think that Mrs Dashwood is far more caring about her children's happiness than Mrs Bennet. Do you think Mrs bennet would have been as worried for Jane when she was ill if Janes illness was more serious? Mrs Dashwood was very worried.

I think Edward is feeling... shyness. I don't think he knows how to tell them and he feel bound to his promise which he doesn't want to break! and speaking would endanger it. I feel for him in this chapter.


message 15: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 06, 2013 02:39AM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Marianne is the worst version of herself when she is with Willoughby.I don't understand why Willoughby hates Brandon so bitterly.I mean I know not everyone likes everyone else but this seems more then just a don't like him.He seems to really hate him with a passion.I wonder if it was because he saw that he was in love with Marianne.What do you all think?When Elinor asks him he makes in a joke and we never really get an answer.

Jane Austen was great at making annoying characters but not all of those annoying characters were bad or evil Miss Bates for example.Mrs.Elton was a witch and Mrs.Norris was evil.(Can't wait to group read all Austen's novels)I do like how Austen shows just because some people have annoying traits doesn't make them bad people.

I agree Irene it does seem that Willoughby is asking for forgiveness in advance.

Mrs Dashwood vs Mrs Bennet
Mrs Dashwood is the better parent by far.Her mistakes are I think loving her childern too much.Letting them have to much freedom.Marianne running wild with Willoughby for example.Mrs Bennet just wanted to get her childern married.Mrs Bennet cared more about herself then anyone IMO. Mrs.Dashwood cared about her kids before herself.Yes she made mistakes by letting Marianne have to much rein but I still think her mistakes were made out of love.

One of the biggest differices in Colonel Brandon and Willoughby is that Brandon is mindful of the feelings of others.Where Willoughby could care less if he hurts someone's feelings.I loved with Brandon helped get the subject of Edward dropped when Mrs.Jennings and Sir John were trying to find out his name.

I do think that a lot of Edward's shyness comes form a low self esteem.I am at the part were he is visiting and Marianne saying he is reserved.I bet his family(mother,sister,brother)had a lot to do with his reserve and self esteem.


message 16: by Diane (last edited Jul 06, 2013 05:07AM) (new)

Diane | 12 comments Nicole D. wrote: Mrs Dashwood vs Mrs Bennet
Mrs Dashwood is the better parent by far.Her mistakes are I think loving her childern too much.Letting them have to much freedom.Marianne running wild with Willoughby for example.Mrs Bennet just wanted to get her childern married.Mrs Bennet cared more about herself then anyone IMO. Mrs.Dashwood cared about her kids before herself.Yes she made mistakes by letting Marianne have to much rein but I still think her mistakes were made out of love."


Mrs. Bennet too lets her children have way too much freedom--letting them socialize very early, neglecting their education, and encouraging Lydia to go to Brighton.

I don't think Mrs. Bennet does what she does because she "cared more about herself." She has greatly overestimated the power of marriage to make her daughters happy. She agrees with Charlotte Lucas (who lives out her beliefs) that marriage no matter to whom is preferable to being a spinster. Mrs. Bennet knows her daughters have no money and will lose their home in the case of Mr. Bennet's death (exactly what has happened to the Dashwoods). The Dashwoods don't seem to have predicted their homelessness, probably since their stepson/stepbrother is the heir.

When Lydia runs off and before she's married, Mrs. Bennet is quite distraught. She wails and confines herself to her room. She displays the overblown sensibility (drama queen) behavior of Marianne and Mrs. Dashwood.

Austen definitely portrays Mrs. Dashwood in a much more sympathetic light than Mrs. Bennet, but, in ways, I see a lot of similarity between the two.


message 17: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments WOW, I love when the discussion is so lively!
At this point, I agree with what you say about Edward's shyness... and he confirms it himself.

Chapter 17
"Shyness is only the effect of a sense of inferiority in some way or other. If I could persuade myself that my manners were perfectly easy and graceful, I should not be shy".

And I agree also with what you say about Mrs. Dashwood and Mrs. Bennet. They both want their children to be happy, but they have different views on what happines is and what's necessary to gain it.

"Indeed a man could not very well be in love with either of her daughters, without extending the passion to her".


message 18: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I don't know why or understand why he had such a hatred for Brandon.... Did he know about Eliza's link to Brandon? There is no reason for him to dislike Brandon so strongly, even with Marianne in the picture, IMO.

Mrs Dashwood is similar, you are right. She is just shown in a more favourable light, but she isn't quite as annoying and embarrassing to her children; she is more subtle!

That is a perfect quote Irene. :)


message 19: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 06, 2013 03:20PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Diane wrote: "Nicole D. wrote: Mrs Dashwood vs Mrs Bennet
Mrs Dashwood is the better parent by far.Her mistakes are I think loving her childern too much.Letting them have to much freedom.Marianne running wild wi..."


Yes Lydia runs away and Mrs.Bennet makes it about herself by confineing herself to her room and having fits of crying.Jane gets sick who cares as long as she is at Netherfield and can get Bingley and by the way Mrs.Bennet is so happy that it worked out that way and thinks it was all her idea.Mrs.Dashwood rushes to Marianne's side.Mrs.Dashwood loves all her kids but Mrs.Bennet doesn't even really like Lizzie(I remember a line of her saying she was the least liked or dear something like that).

I just find Mrs.Bennet very self centered and Mrs.Dashwood isn't.I really feel Mrs.Dashwood's love for her childern and never really feel Mrs.Bennet's love for any of her kids but maybe Lydia.

I also feel that Mrs.Bennet is very vulgar(talking) and reminds me in that way more of Mrs.Jennings.Mrs.Dashwood I don't find vulgar at all.

I really think Mrs.Dashwood is a good mother and better then Mrs.Bennet yes she made mistakes but what parents perfect or what human being for that matter.


message 20: by Diane (new)

Diane | 12 comments Nicole D. wrote: "I just find Mrs.Bennet very self centered"
I really don't see Mrs. B as self-centered, just very, very misguided. Yes, Austen portrays Mrs. B. as vulgar. She brags whenever she can and doesn't know the meaning of discretion as Mrs. D does. But Mrs. B is also vulgar in that she is very willing to speak her mind even to the point of rudeness. I see that as a trait of Marianne's, who is said to be very much like her mother.

never really feel Mrs.Bennet's love for any of her kids but maybe Lydia.

Mrs. D seems to have a favorite in Marianne but does seem to respect Elinor and her differences much more than Mrs. B does with her daughters who are less like her. I don't think it's love Mrs. B is missing but respect and empathy for her daughters. (I don't think Lizzie respects her mother much either but definitely loves her.) I think Mrs. B is loving her daughters the best way she knows how.

I certainly don't mean to assert that the mothers are exactly alike. It's just that in thinking about them I was surprised at some of the powerful similarities. I had previously seen them as very different, having almost no similarities. I had an experience like the one described in S&S (Ch. 17) in which Elinor and Edward are debating whether or not Marianne is a "lively" girl.

"I have frequently detected myself in such kind of mistakes," said Elinor, "in a total misapprehension of character in some point or other: fancying people so much more gay or grave, or ingenious or stupid than they really are, and I can hardly tell why or in what the deception originated. Sometimes one is guided by what they say of themselves, and very frequently by what other people say of them, without giving oneself time to deliberate and judge."



message 21: by Diane (new)

Diane | 12 comments Soph wrote: "I don't know why or understand why he had such a hatred for Brandon.... Did he know about Eliza's link to Brandon? There is no reason for him to dislike Brandon so strongly, even with Marianne in t..."

I was wondering too whether Willoughby knew about Eliza's connection with Brandon. I think he surely must have. He's a talker and apparently Eliza is too (if she's like her mother who is like Marianne). Surely they must have discovered the link. Maybe it's his fear of Brandon that makes him dislike him so much.

And just maybe...Austen is implying that Willoughby somehow knew (instinctively) that he would never make Marianne happy and that Brandon would be her true love. This is reaching but hmmm....???


message 22: by Stephanie (new)

Stephanie (stephanie-jo) | 111 comments I found the scene when Edward Ferrars goes to visit Barton College and he is suddenly wearing a ring with a lock of hair in it that everyone assumes that it is his sisters and they don't believe that it is Elinor's. It is almost as though Marianne wants him to admit to something that should not come out yet.


message 23: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 06, 2013 06:53PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Diane wrote: "Soph wrote: "I don't know why or understand why he had such a hatred for Brandon.... Did he know about Eliza's link to Brandon? There is no reason for him to dislike Brandon so strongly, even with ..."

That could well be it.Willoughby would have know Brandon would try to get him to marry Eliza and would tell his aunt in hopes she would have gotten him to marry her.Thus ruining what he had with Marianne.Also if a duel happened Brandon would have the advange with his army training.

Diane wrote: "Nicole D. wrote: "I just find Mrs.Bennet very self centered"
I really don't see Mrs. B as self-centered, just very, very misguided. Yes, Austen portrays Mrs. B. as vulgar. She brags whenever she ca..."


I do think they would have both benifeted by listening to there eldest or elder daughters.Lydia and Marianne may have meet very different fates and turned out very different people which would have been a good thing for Lydia.


message 24: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 06, 2013 08:04PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I read Edward's visit last night and here is what I thought and Jane even points out,Elinor does error is judgement when she so willing and easily finds reasons why Edward is behaving out of spirits and with uncertain behaviour to her while when it's Willoughby's uncertain behaviour she is quick to judge him.With Edward she justs lays it all on his mother and is easy.With Willoughby she is quick to distrust.

The Palmers have come and I once read someone comparing some of Mr.Palmers rude behavior to Darcy and now I see a little of what they mean.When he was just reads the newspaper the whole time and only just bows and doesn't say anything.It does remind me of Darcy.

Anyone compare the Marianne,Elinor,and Mrs.Dashwood with Charlotte,Lady Middleton,and Mrs.Jennings and see that they each have one daughter like Mrs.Jennings or Mrs.Dashwood and one totally different.

sorry if I am chiming in too much.If you all want me to calm down on the posts let me know


message 25: by Irene (last edited Jul 07, 2013 03:28AM) (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 18
"It was evident that he was unhappy; she wished it were equally evident that he still distinguished her by the same affection which once she had felt no doubt of insipiring".

Very good point Nicole! Elinor sees that Edward is behaving in a different manner, but she is more willing to forgive him and to find perfectly reasonable explanations than she is to forgive Wiloughby. But it's not really surprising, we are all less impartial when we are directly involved.
In fact...

Chapter 19
"It was happy for her that he had a mother whose character was so imperfectly known to her, as to be the general excuse for every thing strange on the part of her son".

Of course Elinor is partial to Edward while she is an acute observer with Willoughby.
In chapter 19 I find Edward quite annoying, too much self-pity. Elinor's behaviour instead should be an example both for Edward and Marianne. She doesn't cry over split milk, she try to occupy herself and she doesn't distress her family with her hysteria.
In the end I'm proud of Marianne, when she understands the real value of her sister.


message 26: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 20
"Elinor was not inclined, after a little observation, to give him credit for being so genuinely and unaffectedly ill-natured or ill-bred as he wished to appear".

Even if he is a minor character, I like Mr. Palmer and I can't help but picture him as Hugh Laurie. You're right, he has something of Mr. Darcy, but he reminds me also of another character: John Knightley, Mr. Knightley's brother. They have the same saucy humor.


message 27: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Interesting point about Willoughby. He must have known... surely. Whether he knew about Brandon being suited to Marianne and him not... a little far fetched I think.... but who knows ;)

And Nicole you are right about the duelling - he definitely should be scared of duelling with such a man as Brandon!

Edward and the lock of hair... The fact that once he was no around Lucy he kept it on and didn't take it off and 'hide' it suggests to me that he almost wanted to be found out so that he wouldn't have to keep lying to Elinor. Any thoughts on this?

Oh my word. That is an interesting take. Mr Palmer, like Darcy, does seem to be awkward in the company of strangers but later, if I remember, he seems more confident, when he knows them a little better, and is very helpful and understanding and caring with Marianne's illness.

Good point also about the link to Charlotte and lady Middleton. Charlotte is like Mrs Jennings and Marianne like Mrs Dashwoods but Lady Middleton and Elinor don't 'fit' as much. That is a very interesting comparison to make.

(you could never post too much, no one could ever post too much - great conversations going on :))

Edward annoyed me a little as well Irene in this section and it is true about Elinor being able to forgive Edward's strange behaviour but so harshly scrutinise Willoughby's behaviour.

And Irene, comparing Mr Palmer and John Knightley is another good point. They are also similar, you are right.


message 28: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Irene I agree he does have a bit of John Knightly about him.

I do like that Elinor doesn't go into hysteria and cry and seek quiet walks by herself.But I do wish she had shown a little feeling.

Elinor doesn't show her feelings and Marianne shows her feelings to much.I think Austen wanted us to find a happy medium between both sense and sensibility.


message 29: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I also wish she should have shown a little feeling, she does eventually but you would think, after hearing that, that in a private moment she would give way for a short time to her emotions.

It is definitely what Austen wanted I think because Marianne's weakness at times is her sensibility and Elinor's weakness sometimes her sense.

This brings me in mind of Jane Bennet again; if she had shown her feelings more Bingley would have been more secure of her feelings and Darcy and his sisters wouldn't have been able to persuade him otherwise so easily. Edward may have been more... im not sure but something different may have happened had she shown more feeling.
Marianne as well, if she had shown less feeling she would not have been exposed to so much talk as her and Willoughby's engagement seemed all but certain because of their behaviour.


message 30: by Diane (new)

Diane | 12 comments Irene wrote: "Even if he is a minor character, I like Mr. Palmer and I can't help but picture him as Hugh Laurie. You're right, he has something of Mr. Darcy, but he reminds me also of another character: John Knightley, Mr. Knightley's brother. They have the same saucy humor."

I really didn't like Mr. Palmer upon my first reading of S&S. Even though he is polite to the Dashwoods (eventually) and Elinor discovers that his rudeness is some sort of act, I really couldn't excuse his behavior toward his wife and mother-in-law. But, considering the reactions of Mrs. Palmer and Mrs. Jennings to his rudeness (they always seem to think it's hilarious), I knew I didn't understand him. Mrs. Palmer and Mrs. Jennings must understand that his rudeness is an act. Maybe their laughter at his behavior eggs him on all the more. Maybe he sees their reactions as a challenge. He wants to see how far he can go until he can actually get a reaction other than laughter.

I read a very interesting article on JASNA, by two authors who assert that Charlotte Palmer and her mother are the real models of perfection of the sense/sensibility blend. They made some good points and strengthened my affection for these two characters.
Jasna article (PDF)


message 31: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I think I agree with you. I think he knows that they enjoy it really and so he doesn't mind being like he is.

Thanks for the article. It was very interesting :)


message 32: by Marren (last edited Jul 08, 2013 02:35PM) (new)

Marren | 764 comments Thank you Diane! This is an excellent article on characters trait of sense and sensibility or both.

It opened a new window of incite into two characters (Mrs Jennings and Charlotte) on a level that I have never thought of/read of before. It never occurred to me that the sense and sensibility of the mother and daughter is one which makes them independent of other's purse and happiness. Fantastic stuff to analyse :)

I also appreciate the analysis of Elinor and Marianne. I agree that both sisters have 'sense' and 'sensible.' Elinor is certainly not without feeling and Marianne does have a bit of sense.

This is a bit of the article to wet the appetite. I urge all to read the article in its entirety:

"In Sense and
Sensibility, Austen delves into the complicated elements comprising the concepts
named in the title and effectively presents readers with three sub-groups
of female characters that manifest these qualities in different ways. In her experience
with love, Elinor is revealed to have some of the same traitsMarianne
displays, and both sisters represent a form of sensibility that ultimately reveals
dependence on romantic love for happiness. Lucy Steele and her role models
are women who demonstrate purely practical, unfeeling sense in their focus on
monetary and social status. Neither of these first two groups is meant to be
emulated by Austen’s readers, though the narrative clearly inspires our admiration
for Elinor and our empathy for both her and Marianne. We do not aspire
to the struggles they have endured, whether through martyr-like fortitude
or theatrical, public venting. It is only in the characters of Mrs. Jennings
and Charlotte Palmer that the reader finds unexpectedly desirable role models
for the healthiest blend of sense and sensibility. Anne Ruderman argues that
“the idea that the truest sensibility is found in moral involvement and not
flights of emotion is common to all [Austen’s] work” (93). These two feel for
others, but without the burden of emotional embroilment or dependency.
Completely comfortable with their individual insistence on being happy, and
fully able to take their happiness into their own hands, they might be a glimmer
of the modern women to come. They gain that happiness without stepping
on or being jealous of other people and while actively seeking the good of
others as well."


message 33: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Great part to pick out Marren!


message 34: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments I felt it was the summary of the article.


message 35: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Thanks for sharing this article!
However I can't agree with the statement that Charlotte Palmer is an example of happiness. I've always thought that she was too frivolous to understand that her husband doesn't respect her. This cannot be happiness.


message 36: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I am not sure. She seems happy but whether it is true/proper happiness is another question... She seems happy.


message 37: by Marren (last edited Jul 10, 2013 02:15PM) (new)

Marren | 764 comments Everyone defends happiness in their own terms. I would not say that Mr. Palmer did not respect his wife, he just did not share her gleeful nature. I always wonder what attracted them to each other.


message 38: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Who knows how they came together. Maybe... (long shot!) they are a little like Lydia and Wickham. I reckon Lydia will start to have to please herself and that Wickham may go into himself more, like Mr Palmer. I don't know. Maybe a little. Any thoughts?


message 39: by Marren (last edited Jul 10, 2013 02:22PM) (new)

Marren | 764 comments Hmm, I never thought of Mr. and Mrs. Palmers as a Wickham and Lydia. Mr. Palmer acts superior and he probably came of a gentry class. Mr. Palmer is not a bad man, he just does not like to mingle and be bothered but he is kind when he is needed for example see how he helps the Dashwoods later. I guess I am defending him because I like him.


message 40: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I am not comparing Wickham to Mr Palmer because I like him as well. I am thinking about their relationship/marriage development


message 41: by Kellie (new)

Kellie I can relate to Charlotte. My husband is a little like Mr. Palmer. He is harsh and can be quite rude, but it is all an act. He is very shy and is not comfortable around new people at all. I laugh off his rude comments because I know it is an act. When he is alone with me or with the few people he is close to he is very sweet, loving, and does everything he can to make me happy. People look at our relationship and wonder how we ever got together, but it was because he let go of the act and I saw he was a wonderful, hardworking man who just wants to be loved and appreciated. The parallel became apparent when I read the exchange between him and his MIL about not being able to give Charlotte back because he took her in marriage. My husband and my mother have had that exact conversation. I laughed out loud when I read it this time.


message 42: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Oh wow! That is amazing. This is the sort of relationship I could imagine having happened between them. Thanks for sharing that :)


message 43: by Chahrazad (new)

Chahrazad | 36 comments Hey ladies!
Sorry for the absence, I'm a bit caught up these days!

So Mr.Palmer and Mrs.Palmer... I just need to say that I always imagine him to be Hugh Laurie :D That said, I think the kind of relationship I always thought these two had was more like that Mr. and Mrs. Bennet.

I think he doesn't respect her and found himself stuck with her since he's a man of honor.
I think Austen gives yet an example of the incompatibility of marriages in her time. For her, people who marry for reasons other than love and respect are doomed.


message 44: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Austen's view on marriage is clear, you are right! Love marriages work!

I suppose Mr and Mrs Bennet are a little like Mr and Mrs Palmer. Although Mrs Bennet doesn't always find Mr Bennet funny as Mrs Palmer always seems to do.


message 45: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I never thought of Mr.Palmer and Mrs.Palmer as Wickham and Lydia.I think they are both nicer and smarter then those two.I can't see either of them running off with each other and not getting married right away.Wickham and Lydia have no morals and that is there downfall.Mr.Palmer and Mrs.Palmer have morals.

I really like both Mr.and Mrs.Palmer for some reason.

Chahrazad I also always see Mr.Palmer as Hugh Laurie.He is the perfect Mr.Palmer IMO and thought whoever cast him must have really understood Mr.Palmer's character.


message 46: by Chahrazad (new)

Chahrazad | 36 comments Nicole, you're right! Casting Hugh Laurie was a very good choice :)
I love how Austen takes great care in creating her characters even the minor ones such as Mr. and Mrs.Palmer and many more!


message 47: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
She takes such care in making all character, however minor, important and detailed and interesting!!


message 48: by Louise Sparrow (new)

Louise Sparrow (louisex) | 262 comments I can't believe how long it has taken me to read these chapters!

I do always picture Mr Palmer as Hugh Laurie and I've always liked the character. I think his marriage was like that of Mr and Mrs Bennett, he was taken by her beauty and then disappointed with her mind.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have some affection for her, and I think she is happy, if he were not a good person he could have made her afraid of him. He also didn't have to visit her relations, perhaps she is right about him being obliged to make everyone like him in his profession, he knows there he doesn't need to be pleasing.

Elinor questions his manners too but whilst she and Marianne are obliged to be civil, he is family, and he has discovered by that time that what he says never offends them or makes the slightest difference. It is partly an act but I think it is also his way of coping with them, he can't join in with them so he distinguishes himself from them, it is perhaps a bad habit.

I wouldn't say he is at all like Mr Darcy though, he does choose to be rude and he isn't in the slightest bit uncomfortable, whereas Darcy was unaware that he was being ill-mannered until it was pointed out, because he retreated behind what he considered to be good breeding. He also didn't mean Lizzy to hear his slight, whereas Mr Palmer say his openly.


message 49: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Don't worry! :)

I agree with what you say. They are like Mr and Mrs Bennet. I think Mr Palmer is hilarious. He is so funny and very sarcastic!

Mr Palmer is definitely not like Mr Darcy, for the reasons you have stated.


message 50: by Anne (new)

Anne | 70 comments I agree with you Soph, Mr. Palmer was very hilarious! And so was Mrs. Palmer, but they certainly made an odd couple!


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