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message 1: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Enter Miss Lucy Steele who then reveals her engagement to Edward to Elinor, Mrs Jennings secures a visit from the Dashwood girls in town, Marianne finally runs into Willoughby at a party and is surprised by his cold and indifferent manner, a letter from Willoughby then severs any hopes

message 2: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Poor Elinor when Lucy told her about her engagement to Edward.I really feel for her ever time I read this part.I think that Edward should have manned up and told Elinor that they couldn't be together.He didn't need to give any details.But for someone already so shy to speak so strait forward whould be almost impossiable.I think Edward is Austen's weakest hero.

Anne and her beaux.She is one of Austen's most vulgar characters.But I do think if her and Lucy had had a better eduction they would have turned out better.Anne and her beaux remind of Lydia and her officers for some reason in the way that they don't seem to what to talk about anything else.

I think it is so annoying how the Steeles flatter and act like Lady Middleton is a Goddess and her childern perfect little angels.I am all for being nice and kind and showing your hostess your thankful for inviting you and all but my gosh those 2 take it to a level that is extreme wait I forgot about Mrs.Clay in Persuasion is another flatter that is puts my teeth on edge.Mr.Collins falling overbackward for Lady Catherine is another annoying one.

message 3: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Poor Brandon goes to Mrs.Jennings house in londan to see Marianne and Elinor and Marianne runs away form him because he is not Willoughby.I feel for Brandon.How horriable to to think that the women you love is going to marry a rotten horriable selfish unfeeling man.

When I read Willoughby's letter I truely hated him form that moment on.How could anyone write a letter like that to someone they say they loved?Poor Marianne to have read that and her so madly in love with him and wanting to find an excuse for him.

message 4: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 21
"The manner in which Miss Steele had spoken of Edward, incrreased her curiosity"

Nicole, I agree with you about Anne Steele and her beaux. I found her worse than Mrs. Jennings and Mrs. Palmer together. Lucy is tolerable, but not sensible enough to tempt Elinor to form a friendship.
It seems the poor Elinor is doomed to meet women not in the slightest smart as she is.
Maybe Jane Austen wrote S&S in a period when was surrounded by silly acquaintances and had little opportunity of good conversation...

message 5: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 22
"What felt Elinor at that moment? Astonishment, that would have been as painful as it was wrong, had not an immediate disbelief of the assertion attended it. [...] nd though the complexion varied, she stood firm in incredulity and felt in no danger of an hysterical fit, or a swoon".

I felt for poor Elinor too when reading this passage. Lucy steel is so false and hypocritical in her declaration that I wanted to slap her in the face. Her intentions are clear: she probably heard about Edward visit from Mrs. Jennings and she wants Elinor to know that he is her belongings. I would have apreciated her more had she been less affected and more direct in her assertions.
On her part Elinor is clearly shocked, but she bares the whole situation in an admirable way. Marianne would have collapsed and then probably killed Lucy...
I find very sweet the extreme attempt Elinor does to defend Edward, suggesting that they may be talking of different Mr. Ferrars.

At the end of chapter 22 ended the first volume of S&S. Jane Austen had a knack for suspence!

message 6: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 23 and 24
"The piano-forte [...] was luckily so near them that Miss dashwood now judged, she might safely, under the shelter of its noise, introduce the interesting subject, without ant risk of being heard at the card table".

I really like this side of Elinor, she is rational and so decided to act rationally about Edward and Lucy's engagement. She needs more information and does all that's in her power to gain them. Instead of surrender to depression, she rolls up her sleeves.
Her conversation with Lucy is something like a chess game and Elinor plays very well. I don't think Jane Bennet would have been able to do de same...
I also like the involuntarily help Marianne gives by playing so loud!

message 7: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 25
"Marianne's joy was almost a degree beyond happiness, so great was the perturbation of her spirits and her impatience to be gone. Her unwillingness to quit her mother was her only restorative of calmness; and at the moment of parting, her grief on that score was excessive. Her mother's affliction was hardly less, and Elinor was the only one of the three, who seemed to consider the separation as any thing short of eternal".

Mrs. Jennings has indeed a very good heart. She might be vulgar but she is kind to the girls. I can clearly see why Elinor is not enthusiastic about going to London, but she also feel the danger of Marianne going alone.
At this point of the novel, it seems that Elinor feels quite tired of being always the wise one. It's an exhausting matter and she has her own thoughts about Edward to occupy her mind.

message 8: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 26
"It was too great a shock to be borne with calmness, and she immediately left the room. Elinor was disappointed too; but at the same time her regard for Colonel Brandon ensured his welcome with her".

This is the behaviour of a man in love. He comes to know that they're in town and he visits the. The cavalier with the shining armour! It's a pity that Marianne doesn't see him at all. Her behaviour in town is the worst she can do and I really detest her in this part of the novel.

There's one thing I can't understand. Why does Mrs. Palmer feel the need of repeat again and again that her husband is so happy with the Dashwoods?

message 9: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
It is such a shock to poor Elinor to be told from Lucy and so bluntly and then to have to hide any emotion. I cannot stand Lucyy.

I think Anne is so.... annoying! And Lucy is a vile, scheming cow. Can't stand these two sisters!
And the excessive flattery... are you kidding me!! Seriously... suck ups...

Poor Brandon yes Nicole! it must be horrid to be so slighted like Marianne does. Poor man! he really can love through anything!

The letter.... no words...

"Marianne would have collapsed and then probably killed Lucy..."
ahahah very true! She should not have been so horrible and It is clear she has heard of Elinor and come to her own conclusions in her head and wants to set things straight with Elinor from the outset. And she does have the knack of suspense ;)

Elinor is a very clever character, she has sense and does not, as you said, give in to her emotions and works to discover the facts.

I feel for Elinor, being almost forced to go to London. it is clear how she is becoming more and more exhausted and not being at liberty to speak to a soul about her troubles.

Marianne's behaviour is very immature and shows how badly Willoughby has affected her...

As to the questions about Mrs Palmer... I am not sure actually. it is an interesting thought.... why does she need to repeat the fact that they are pleased with the Dashwoods... Anyone got any opinions?

message 10: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments Irene wrote: "Chapter 26
"It was too great a shock to be borne with calmness, and she immediately left the room. Elinor was disappointed too; but at the same time her regard for Colonel Brandon ensured his welco..."

I can be wrong but here is my thought about Mrs. Palmer need to repeat that Mr. Palmer is happy about the Dashwoods:

Mr. Palmer was always frank when corresponding with mostly everyone he met. Since Charlotte liked the Dashwoods, she did not want it to appear that her husband did not not care about people that she cared about.

message 11: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Good quote there Marren.

message 12: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 27
"Where the mind is perhaps rather unwilling to be convinced, it will always find something to support its doubts".

This sentence, pronounced by Colonel Brandon, seems to sum up everything that had happened till this moment. Marianne is unwilling to see that Willoughby behaviour is strange, if not wrong. Elinor refuses to think ill about Edward, even if she is convinced that he can't be happy with Lucy. They both try to find justifications and explanations, even when there's none to be found.
Marianne herself behaves very poorly. She refuses to tell the truth to her sister and she compare her situation to Elinor's. But they're very different, at least in appearance. Elinor, in fact, despite being in love with Edward, never acts like their marriage was sure and never exposes herself or her family to gossip with inconsiderate behaviour.

Marren, you're probably right about Mrs. Palmer! She wants the Dashwood to know that they're welcome even if Mr. Palmer acts oddly.

This chapter strengthen my belief: Colonel Brandon is the only true gentleman. He is sure that Marianne is going to marry Willoughby and he doesn't speak ill of him because he cannot hurt her. How romantic...

message 13: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Colonel Brandon is one of my favorite heroes ever.Such a gentlemen like you said Irene.Not speaking ill of Willoughby because it would hurt Marianne.Plus he is willing to see her happy with someone else if that is what she wants.A true gentleman.

message 14: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 28
I hope a lightning won't fall on me for saying this but this chapter is the only one that I feel better represented in movies then in the novel... No, no lightining... Maybe that's because I've watched adaptations many times, actually more often than I read the book, so I'm bound to Kate Winslet performance, that I find exemplar in this case.
However anxiety and distress are palpable and Willoughby is such an insolent. At least he has the decency of desplaying some embarrassment.

Chapter 29
"Oh! How easy for those who have no sorrow of their own to talk of exertion!"

Willoughby's letter is even more terrible than his behaviour and Marianne's grief is nothing less than expected.
I appreciate tha fact that Marianne's first words are for Elinor ("poor Elinor! How unhappy I make you!"), however, just a few lines later, her egoism cames back. She suffers and she suffers more than anyone, she can't do anything to prevent her grief to flow. She wants to go away and, even if she believe Edward in love with Elinor, she doesn't care that their departing from London may be a way to separate Elinor and Edward.
Even if she is 16, she was in love and she is now bitterly disappointed, I can't excuse her way. Can you?

Chapter 30
Mrs. Jennings says a very wise thing: "nothing in the way of pleasure can ever be given up by the young men of this age". I believe it's still true, in some ways. Not that there are many marriages for mony nowadays (at least, I hope so!), but people rarely do what is right against what is easy.

message 15: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
"Where the mind is perhaps rather unwilling to be convinced, it will always find something to support its doubts".
Wonderful quote.

"Colonel Brandon is the only true gentleman. He is sure that Marianne is going to marry Willoughby and he doesn't speak ill of him because he cannot hurt her. How romantic..."
And that is completely right. He is wonderful. So romantic.

Marianne is .... annoying. She milks her sorrow a bit too much and she needs to think of poor Elinor. She is far to self-centred.

message 16: by Chahrazad (new)

Chahrazad | 36 comments Again Marianne is annoying like you said Soph! The way she is so self-centered is irritating.

Colonel Brandon is a well- balanced gentleman. I love his integrity. I admit that for me he doesn't compare with Mr.Darcy (Darcy is my favorite in all literature :D) but the way he carries out his duties is admirable.

I also wanted to ask you about something: what do you think of the actor? Do you see Snape as Brandon? :D

message 17: by Chahrazad (new)

Chahrazad | 36 comments Lucy Steele is evil... She's very manipulative! I think she suspected Edward had feelings for Elinor and wanted to step in in time to save herself. Needless to say that she uses flattery to get her way! Such people lack self-respect.

message 18: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I think I see Brandon as more .... Oh actually... Oh I don't know! I love the 2008 mini-series best but did love Rickman's Brandon. I don't actuality see Snape when I watch it :P but who I think of.... David Morrissey I think (2008)

message 19: by Kellie (new)

Kellie I have never seen Harry Potter so I do not see Snape, but I see the Sherr

message 20: by Kellie (new)

Kellie Sorry, I see the Sheriff of Nottingham from RH Prince of Thieves. I hate to see him play Brandon because I love the Colonel, but was terribly afraid of the sheriff when I watched RH as a young teen. I think Colonel Brandon acted like a gentleman and hate how Marianne is so selfish and bratty.

message 21: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Alan Rickman is great, even if a bit too old to play a man of 36. However I'm happy I saw S&S before Harry Potter, so I didn't saw Snape in S&S but Colonel Brandon in HP.

message 22: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Marianne and her behaviour was appalling. It's annoying. He is a gentlemen.

They were all too old in that film!!

Haha. Brandon in HP!

message 23: by Chahrazad (new)

Chahrazad | 36 comments :D I watched S&S way before HP but I never saw Snape as Brandon and that's because I honestly didn't recognize anyone. the thing is that when I rewatched S&S, I was like : aren't these two professor Snape and professor Treylawny??!! :D
Sorry I stirred away from the original discussion but I think we can't help being influenced by the various adaptations. I bet many women around the world didn't fall for Mr.Darcy as much as with Colin Firth.

message 24: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
You are right about Firth!!
And the adaptations are bound to come into the conversation!! So many S&S actors and in HP at some time. Sir John is Cornelius Fudge, Mrs Palmer is Umbridge....

message 25: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I agree with everyone all the actors are too old in S&S 1995.

I was happy in 2008 version they seemed closer to the right age.I will have to get both versions out and watch them again.Any excuse right?

message 26: by [deleted user] (new)

I think I have every movie adaptation made of every Jane Austen novel!

I believe that I do!

message 27: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 14, 2013 06:27PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Fern wrote: "I think I have every movie adaptation made of every Jane Austen novel!

I believe that I do!"

I have a lot too and still have few more I want to see.

I am one of those people that believe you can never have too much Jane Austen.

message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

@ Nicole D, I completely and totally agree!

there is no such thing as, too much Jane Austen!

message 29: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
too much Jane Austen? I don't understand what that means :P

I have like all adaptations as well :D Any excuse to watch them... ANY!

message 30: by [deleted user] (new)

@ Soph, Precisely!

The world can never have too much Jane Austen!

message 31: by Louise Sparrow (new)

Louise Sparrow (louisex) | 262 comments If Captain Wentworth's letter is the most romantic, Willoughby's has to be it's exact opposite! How cruel.

I won't deny that I find Marianne annoying but I think a lot of it has to do with her age, and she has grown up very sheltered and been encouraged to believe that she would find one true love (we'd all like that of course). There's been nothing to check her, certainly not her mother, so she is behaving the way she thinks she is supposed to behave, throwing her whole heart into the match without reservation and believing herself blighted for life when it doesn't turn out as she expects... like a heroine from a novel.

Lucy Steele is a scheming little witch and I can't help but wonder how much of Edward's original attraction and proposal to her were by her design. Her sister would make me cringe and long to give her a set down, but then there are few characters in this book that I really like.

Mrs Jennings, Sir John and Mrs Palmer are good hearted and oblivious of the harm they do, but to be always in company with them? Well actually I think that more people in general resemble them now than the more refined section of society and I would rather be in their company than say, the Ferrars.

Colonel Brandon... I can't deny that he is my favourite character from this book but I'm not sure that his attraction to Marianne springing as it does from the likeness he perceives to his lost love is entirely to his credit. Does he really love Marianne before she begins to think of him or is he at first a little obsessed with a ghost?

Despite the 2008 version being my favourite adaptation of S&S, I do however see Brandon as Alan Rickman. I think he's a brilliant actor and I can completely separate him in my mind from Snape, the Sheriff of Nottingham, Alexander Dane and all the other things I've seen him in. I wish I could say the same about Emma Thompson, he is definitely closer to 36 than she is to 19!

message 32: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Willoughby's is the opposite!

You are very right about Marianne. In a way a little like Mrs Bennet and Lydia in regards to encouraging their daughters behaviour.

I have never thought of that before! It is completely likely that Lucy manipulated him into proposing to her all those years ago! Why have I never thought of that?

"is he at first a little obsessed with a ghost?"
I am not sure about obsessed. I know he definitely took notice of her because of Eliza but then I think he fell for her as Marianne, her own person!

The ages are so out in the 1995 film! 2008 will always be my favourite :) but Rickman was wonderful!

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