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message 1: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Colonel Brandon reveals his true connection to Willoughby, Willoughby is married and Marianne is not taking it well, enter Mrs Ferrars and Robert Ferrars, Edward and Lucy’s engagement is made known and he is disinherited, Brandon offers Edward a living

message 2: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 07, 2013 04:02PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments My heart breaks for Brandon having to relive his beloved Eliza's death again by telling Elinor.I can't stand Brandon's father or brother.They are is family and they made him so unhappy and didn't care that they did that.Plus there treatment of Eliza my gosh they were her family also.How could you treat your family like that?

I have always wondered if Brandon and Willoughby dueled with swords or pistols.I bet they most likely did it with Pistols.Willoughby did hunt so he mostly likely would have choice pistols and sense Brandon made the challenge I think that Willoughby gets to choose the weapon or maybe I am confused I haven't read a Heyer in a while and she usually has a lot of duels and knows all the rules I think Brandon being a solider would have the advantage over Willoughby and have always wondered why Brandon didn't hurt Willoughby and think it is for Marianne's sack.What do you all think?

I think Mrs.Dashwood does right wanting Marianne to stay in Londan and telling her to bear up with fortitute under the misfortune.If Marianne went back to her home all should would do is cry and sing the same songs she did with Willoughby.Read the same books and go back to how she was before she went to Londan to see him.What do you all think?Did Mrs.Dashwood do right?

Mrs.Jennings is being so nice to Marianne and doing everything in her power to make her happier.She has such a wonderful heart.

message 3: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 07, 2013 05:57PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I can't stand how John Dashwood is always wanting everyone else to leave his sisters money or do things for them so he doesn't have too.He says that sense they are relatives to the Middletons should help them out it is there right.When he asked Elinor if the Middletons are good neighbours to them in the country and Elinor says yes.John says But it ought to be:they are people of large fortune;they are related to you;and every civility and accomaodation that can serve you might be expected.Why I know of 2 other people who are also all those things and do nothing for them.I can't stand John and Fanny.

message 4: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Brandon's family was appalling... how could they treat Brandon and Eliza like that! reading Brandon's diary by Amanda Grange gave an interesting possibility of the time we don't see with Eliza and I really enjoyed it :) I think Brandon is the hero I most feel for.

I am not sure. I think probably pistols as he would know Brandon would be very impressive with a sword. I am glad they duel but that Brandon is too much of a gentleman to actually hurt Willoughby. I think Willoughby would have been silly if he had wanted Pistols...

I think Mrs Dashwood was completely right. Marianne would have moped around all the time and wouldn't have been any good for her to come home. mrs Dashwood was really sensible and caring of Marianne when she made her stay. She was perfectly right.

I completely agree with you/ john and Fanny are both awful! I don't understand them. At all. he is such a hypocrite! I can't stand him. Him more than her I think.

message 5: by Marren (last edited Jul 08, 2013 03:51PM) (new)

Marren | 764 comments As much as I do not care for Fanny Dashwood, I must say she is a brilliant economist and orator. Her ability to convince her husband what to do with his money (technically everything became his) is fascinating. Fanny feels no connection with the Dashwoods so she does not feel oblige to share her time and money on them. John is the big disappointment! Oh come on John, they have the same papa with you. I agree -Nicole- that it is cold that John wishes everyone to take care of his sisters and stepmother when it was a responsibility that his father left him with. Ah, the dependence of women on men for survival! (severe sense)

message 6: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Exactly. That is why I can't stand John more!!

message 7: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I felt so horriable for Elinor when Edward walked in when she was talking to Lucy.Of course Lucy was no help and it got worse when Marianne came in.

Robert Ferrars is a foolish person.He was sent a public school and Edward a private(Robert said one of there uncle's contived Mrs.Ferrars to have Edward privately educated)I do wonder if Edward would have been a bit more comfortable around people if he had went to a public school.What do you all think?I think he would have.School teaches you how to be social and I bet he would have made some good friends that could help him with his shyness.I am very shy and my friends in school always tryed to help me.

Mrs.Jennings calls Miss Steele Nancy and Lucy calls her Anne.Is that a mistake on JA part or does her sister call her by her christian first name but everyone else call her by her middle name.I know some people go by there middle names as there first.What do you all think?I think as much as I hate to say this that Jane Austen put Nancy and not Anne by mistake.

When Fanny freaks out over Edward's engagment to Lucy.I find it rather funny.That Fanny has such fit over her brother marrying a poor girl and she showed less emotion over her father in law's death.

There is only one time in the novel where Elinor.Marianne.and Mrs.Jennings all agree on something.It's after John Dashwood visits and tells them all that happened with Edward and Lucy.They all agree that Mrs.Ferrars and The Dashwoods acted wrongly and Edward rightly.

message 8: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Marren wrote: "As much as I do not care for Fanny Dashwood, I must say she is a brilliant economist and orator. Her ability to convince her husband what to do with his money (technically everything became his) is..."

Fanny has John wrapped around her little finger.He is so madly in love with her he thinks she can do no wrong.

message 9: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Lucy is such a cow!! That scene is so .... Intense. Lucy makes it such an awkward scene and it was awful!! I cannot stand her!!

I think Edward would have benefited if his education hasn't been private. I think, as you said, his friends would have helped him with his shyness.

message 10: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Fanny does have her wrapped round her finger!!

As to the name... I am not sure... I don't think Austen will blunder...

message 11: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments Nicole I notice the two different names and I found it confusing and I suppose she had two names and different parties called her different names. I am known by two names, my family calls me one name and the rest of the world calls me another. So maybe that is the case, Nicole.

The scene with Fanny freaking about Edward's engagement is epic in the film adaptions. I was first startled each time, then I burst out laughing.

message 12: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 31
"Their fates, their fortunes cannot be the same; and had the natural sweet disposition of the one been guarded by a firmer mind, or an happier marriage, she might have benn all that you will live to see the other be".

Colonel Brandon is really out of the common. After all that happened, it's quite surprising that he's still capable of reasoning!
I don't know in duels who has to make the choice of the weapon, if the challenger or the challenged. Probably Colonel Brandon would have chosen the sword, I believe it's much in his character.
The Colonel say to Elinor that both returned unwounded and, unless they both have a very bad aim, I don't think it's possible with guns.

And then... here we are again, bad things happen in seaside or thermal places. Bath, Ramsgate, Lyme Regis, Brighton had been the scenery for tragedy... it's clear that Jane Austen didn't like water places and this is probably due to the fact that her mother died in Bath.

message 13: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 32
"Against the interest of her own individual comfort, Mrs. dashwood had determined that it would be better for Marianne to be anywhere, at that time, than at Barton".

You're right, Mrs. Dashwood is wise in suggesting that the girls stay in London a little longer. I like the fact that she feels so confident that their friends would drop Willoughby acquaintance.
It's also sweet that Mrs. Dashwood wants them to meet their brother. Does she hope that he finally decide to do something for them?

I don't think that Jane Austen made a mistake with Miss Steele name. Nancy may be her second name or a pet name.
The Steeles are so hypocritical and untrue that I can't stand them! The only reason Lucy is so friendly with Elinor is that she hopes Elinor to put in a good word with Fanny Dashwood. She can't know how wrong she is...

message 14: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 33
"He had just compunction enough for having done nothing for his siters himself, to be exceedingly anxious that everybody else should do a great deal".

The description that John Dashwood gives of the Middletons can be easily applied to him. He is of large fortune and related to them. I think John felt guilty but doesn't dare to breach his wife dispositions.
However his speech about Colonel Brandon and Edward (even if he doesn't say his name) makes every drop of tolerance on my side vanish in a moment. And all he says about his lack of money... argh!
The final affront is what he says in the end about not being sure that Lady Middleton and Mrs Jennings would have suited Fanny. AH!

message 15: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 34
"She was not a woman of many words [...] and of the few syllables that did escape her, not one fell to the share of Miss Dashwood, whom she eyed with the spirited determination of disliking her at all events".

Once we meet Mrs. Ferrars, it's not surprising anymore that Fanny is such a bad person. And Lucy is a fool... she believes what she wants to believe and she doesn't see the truth.

Chapter 35
"I am very sure that conscience only kept Edward from Harley street. And I really believe he has the most delicate conscience in the world".

This scene is one of the most peinfull in the whole novel, even worse than the one at the party where Marianne sees Willougbhy.
However... I'm surprised at the utmost descretion that Elinor keeps with Marianne about Lucy. I know that Lucy asked Elinor not to tell anyone about the engagement, and probably Elinor doesn't want Marianne to know because she fear her sister may betray her confindence inadvertently. However I believe she should have said something, knowing they were all in town.

message 16: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 36
"He addressed her with easy civility, and twisted his head into a bow which assured her as plainly as words could have done, that he was exactly the coxcomb she had heard him described to be by Lucy".

Robert Ferrars is a strange character and we probably even notice him if we didn't know what's going to happen.
Probably you're right, a pubblic school would have helped Edward with his shyness. And I agree with Marren in what she says about Fanny Dashwood.

message 17: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
You are right about that scene. It is hilarious.

I think Brandon was too much of gentleman to do much harm. I believe the challenged, so Willoughby, gets to choose.

Interesting observation about her mother dying in Bath and all the incidents. Probably very true.

"Does she hope that he finally decide to do something for them?" nah..... I don't think so....

Mrs Ferrars is appalling... Her attitude and behaviour to Elinor is awful. She thought that there was something in it with Edward, no doubt from Fanny's comments, and so she had it in for him!

I think you are right. If I didn't know the story I wouldn't have thought twice about Edwards weird brother.

message 18: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 37
"Oh Elinor, you have made me hate myself forever"

I think the main change in Mrianne's character begins here, when Elinor tells her about Edward and Lucy she begins to understand how strong and, at the same time, passionate her sister can be. And she begins to comprehend how self-centered she had been.
We can see the first material alteration in the way Marianne behaves in pubblic about the unavoidable discussion about Lucy and Edward's engagement:
"She listened to her praise of Lucy with only moving from one chair to another, and when Mrs. Jennings talked of Edward's affection, it cost her only a spasm in her throat".
I love Jane Austen's way of describing such scenes!

Chapter 38
I don't know if I would have shown Lucy's letter to Mrs. Jennings. Probably I would have burnt it just for a little revenge.
Lucy is insufferable (how many times I have already said this?) and I'm glad that Elinor knows the truth through Miss Steele. Anne (or Nancy) Steele is less smart than her sister but is more... candid in her spreading information. I think she cares less of consequences.

Chapter 39
In this chapter I particularly like the way Jane Austen compares what Mrs. Jennings believe to hear and what actually was said between Elinor and Colonel Brandon. It's so amusing!!!

Chapter 40
"Colonel Brandon seems a man of great worth and respectability. I have always heard him spoken of as such, and your brother I know esteems him highly. He is undoubtedly a sensible man, and in his manners perfectly the gentleman".

I'm not sure, but Edward seems to suggest something with this speech about Brandon. Maybe he heard something about the supposed engagement between Elinor and Brandon from John Dashwood and wants to see if she says something...

message 19: by Diane (new)

Diane | 12 comments Irene wrote: "Nancy may be her second name or a pet name. "

I think you are right, Irene. A Google search found this.
"Nancy is a nickname for Anne. My favorite name etymology site is BehindTheName.com and they say Nancy is "a medieval diminutive of Annis (a Medieval form of Agnes), though since the 18th century it has been a diminutive of Anne.

more here

message 20: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments "Nancy is a nickname for Anne. My favorite name etymology site is BehindTheNam..."

Thanks for sharing! :D

message 21: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Jane Austen has a talent for scenes like that, as you said.

Lucy is unbelievable.

do you think Brandon and Elinor would have worked, really? they are good friends but they were being pushed together as a good match rather a lot IMO.

Thanks Diane :)

message 22: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments I don't know if they would have worked together as lovers. For sure they would have respected each other a lot, so maybe it wouldn't have been passion but a good union maybe...

message 23: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I agree :)

message 24: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 13, 2013 02:55PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I don't think Elinor and Brandon would have worked together as lovers.Friends but like Irene said I never felt any passion between them or anything but respect and friendship.

I know Irene I love that scene in Chapter 39.It is one of my favorite scenes in the novel along with the following confusion of Mrs.Jennings and Elinor.Classic Comedy.

Thanks Diane.That is so weird that Nancy is a nickname for Anne.

Burning Lucy's letter is Chapter 38 that would have been a good idea but I don't think that is Elinor's way.Lucy is so annoying.I can't stand her.Her sister may be annoying also but for some reason I find her more a comical character one to laugh at more then hate.

Edward and Brandon have a in common both have horriable families who care nothing for there happiness.

opps I moved the last paragraph because it was in the wrong section.

message 25: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I think it would have worked but wouldn't have been a love match, a friendship and respect one.

message 26: by Chahrazad (new)

Chahrazad | 36 comments Brandon and Elinor!!!
I think I agree with you Soph! A union based on friendship and respect would definitely work, since they both are honorable and take their responsibilities seriously and abide by them.

message 27: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod

message 28: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod

message 29: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments Did Brandon ever see any similarity between Marianne and Eliza's?

message 30: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I believe He did which is what attracted him to her to begin with, but then he fell for Marianne for who she was.

message 31: by Kellie (new)

Kellie I think Edward's shyness stems from his personality being completely opposite of the rest of his family. Imagine what it would be like to have a sister and brother like that! They are outgoing and become successful, and poor Edward is not. His interest is never his mother's concern. She shoots down any idea he has for an occupation and tries to force ones that are opposed to his wants and abilities. Sending him away from them was the nicest thing his family did for him. Public school would not have changed his personality, nor do I think friends would have made up for the deficiency of love he surely felt from his family. He knew that no matter what he did it would be the wrong thing to his family, this will never breed confidence.

Brandon is perfect in these chapters.

message 32: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I think I am inclined to agree with you actually about Edward. I think you are right. I would hate having a sister and brother like that If I was Edward!

message 33: by Marren (new)

Marren | 764 comments Kellie, I agree with your views of Edward as well.

message 34: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments If Edward had friends it wouldn't make up for what he is losing by having a horriable family but It would have helped I believe.He would have had someone to talk to and encourage him.I truly believe it would have made a differeince in his shyness and convidence level.

message 35: by Louise Sparrow (new)

Louise Sparrow (louisex) | 262 comments We get to see just how bad the Ferrars/Dashwoods are in these chapters and I think perhaps Colonel Brandon thinks more of Edward because he stood up for the woman he (supposedly) loved against his family, something which Brandon himself failed to do.

I don’t think public school would have helped Edward, he might have been lucky to have found some supportive friends but it’s doubtful, it is more likely that he would have been picked on and made even more shy... schools then were not really more civilised than they are today. It certainly has done Robert no favours, or would Edward perhaps have turned out more like his younger brother if he hadn’t studied with Mr Pratt?

I tend to agree about Elinor and Brandon, they would never have made a love match but if things had turned out differently, with Marianne marrying Willoughby and Edward of course with Lucy, I wouldn’t have been surprised to see them seek consolation with each other. It would have been a comfortable and peaceful marriage where they could both respect each other, but I don’t think they would be really happy knowing that their partner’s heart was elsewhere.

message 36: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I don't know about whether he would have turned out like his brother - I think not because his character was to different to be influenced so much as to make him much more like Robert.

I think had things worked out like you said I believe they may have married each other. They both would have known where each others hearts really lay so I think they ay have settled for each other, knowing what they do.

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