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message 1: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
The Dashwood’s visit the Palmers, Marianne falls ill after walking in the rain, Marianne worsens and Brandon leaves to fetch her mother, Willoughby visits to ‘apologise’, Marianne recovers, finally they return to Devonshire, Brandon and Marianne’s relationship develops, Edward returns and is not married (hooray), Edward and Elinor marry, eventually Brandon and Marianne marry

message 2: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 41
"The lady, I suppose, has no choice in the affair"
"Choice! How do you mean?"

John's mentality is clearer and clearer, not only he refuses to the poor Miss Morton the chance to choose her husband, but also can't see the difference between Edward and Robert, because he values people only on the basis of their possessions.
And Robert Ferrars is just what Lucy deserves.

message 3: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 42
"His behaviour to her [...] had not Elinor still, as from the first, believed Marianne his real favourite, to ake her suspect it herself".

The way Colonel Brandon talks with Elinor reminds me of the way Bingley talks with Elizabeth when they meet in Lambton. They both, even if in different situations, try to get nearer to one sister by getting the good opinion of the other.
Not that what the Colonel did for Edward was done with the intention to please Elinor; it was done to avoid another man his misfortunes.
However he probably fear to approach directly Marianne and that's why he turns to Elinor. This is not surprising after Mariannes behaviour toward the Colonel before...

message 4: by Irene (last edited Jul 12, 2013 07:34AM) (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 43
"Elinor could not be cheerful. Her joy was of a different kind, and led to anything rather than to gaiety".

In Jane Austen novels I always apreciate the fact that she doesn't dwell for too long on things, so Marianne's illness resolved in one single chapter and doesn't take us with bated breath to long. However we can perceive Elinor fluctuating feelings very well.
Even though she hase been the wisest and the more prudent all along, Elinor still feels guilty for Marianne's ilness, just as Elizabeth Bennet feels guilty for Lydia's fate, for not having told the truth about Wickham.
Is this the fate of the strongest ones? They do their best, but it's never enough...

Chapter 44
"You are very wrong. She can never be more lost to you than she is now."
"But she will be gained by some one else. And if that some one should be the very he whom, of all others, I could last bear..."

Quite an unsatisfactory apology, isn't it? Hadn't Willoughby felt anything for Marianne, his behaviour could have been understanded if not approved. The fact that he admit to feel regard for Marianne makes his betrayal even worse to me.
And I really hate his attempt to justify himself by discredit Colonel Brandon word and Eliza situation. What a cheek!

message 5: by Irene (last edited Jul 12, 2013 08:17AM) (new)

Irene | 271 comments Chapter 45
"Here, however, Elinor perceived, not the language, not the professions of Colonel Brandon, but the natural embellishments of her mother's active fancy".

Mothers are all the same! It's amusing to see Mrs. Dashwood trying to convince herself and Elinor that she had found something wrong in Willoughby from the beginning. Luckily Elinor is too wise and too fond of her mother to contradict or reproach her.

Chapter 46
"Do you compare your conduct with his?"
"No. I compare it with what it ought to have been; I compare it with yours"

Chapter 46, together with the last one, is one of my favourite. I really appreciate the way Marianne apologize for her conduct (this is an apology, dear Willoughby) and show that she has learnt something from all the affair.
A similar personal growt can be found in Emma, even if it derive from a less tragic affair.
I also like the fact that Elinor relates about Willoughby visit, Marianne had the right to know. However I can understand why Elinor does her best to make clear the evil in Willoughby's behaviour. Probably she fears a relapse.

Chapter 47
Lucy is deceitful untill the end. The scene she acts with Thomas is her last cruelty towards Elinor. And, in the end, she also manages to gain Mrs. Ferrars forgiveness. Grrr... she drives me mad!

Chapter 48 and 49
"Elinor now found the difference between the expectation od an unpleasant event, however certain the mind may be told to consider it, and certainth itself".

I would have liked to know something more about Edward's proposal, his words and Elinor reaction to them. However... at this point we know them well enough to imagine, don't we?
In chapter 49, after Elinor accepted his proposal, Edward seems finally at ease and talks more in these few pages than in the rest of the novel. It's quit a change!
The explanation given for Lucy and Robert's marriage can be, but sometimes it seems a bit forced as if Jane Austen didn't know, at that point, how to gain the happy ending for Elinor.

Chapter 50
"Colonel Brandon was now as happy, as all those who best loved him, believed he derved to be [...]. Marianne found her own happiness in foming his, was equally the persuasion and delight of each observing friend. Marianne could never love by halves; and her whole heart became, in time, as much devoted to her husband, as it had once been to Willoughby".

Here we are, the final chapter... I'm always a bit sad when I reach the end of a book I love; then I remember that I can re-read it every time I choose to.
Marianne and Brandon's courship is cut short but we can imagine it too.
I love this chapter because it gives me the impression that everything sets as it ought to be. And I like the description Jane Austen gives about Willoughby's future, it's not so miserable as to make me pity him.

Now... when do we read the next one? Thank you all for the great discussion!

message 6: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
It is true. He thinks about people by what they have, not by their personalities.

Robert Ferrars is what Lucy deserves... they are both equally as stupid and horrid.

I thought about that actually, when Brandon was trying to find out about Marianne through Elinor.

I always forget when watching the film or series that Marianne's illness is a much more minor thing and all resolved on more quickly.

This could well be the fate of the strongest ones.

I am with you. His 'apology' made him all the worse for me. I can't believe he even showed he face! how dare he try to justify himself!

This is like Mrs Bennet. Mrs Bennet tried to say she never trusted Wickham. haha

Marianne is great in this chapter. it is clear how she really has changed and matured through the book and realises her behaviour was not what it should have been. It is a great chapter.

Lucy. I have no words.

I wish we saw the proposal as well. I wish to have been able to see what he said and especially her reaction.

I am glad he finally spoke more. but what bothers me Is that if Lucy hadn't switched her 'affections' than poor Elinor wouldn't have had this happy ending would she?

Also, I wish we see more of Marianne and Brandon... the endings of both girls are resolved quickly.

Thanks for all your input, it has been wonderful. What do you want to read next and when? :P

message 7: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments I vote for Emma or Persuasion! As soon as possible :P

message 8: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Ahaha ;) I will put it to the vote in the 'what to read next topic' :)

message 9: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 13, 2013 03:05PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I can't believe that John even compared Edward and Robert and says they are the same and Miss Morton can just switch one for the other.I agree John only cares about people based on what money and matrail possisions they have.I wonder if Miss Morton had any idea of marrying either of them?I wonder if it was just Mrs.Ferrars saying that and hoping that she could arange the match?Maybe Miss Morton was looking higher she did have a big dowery and could have gotten a better match I think then Robert or Edward in trems of rank and money.What do you all think?

Lucy and Robert is a perfect match.They do deserve each other.

Willoughby you stupid jerk this so called apology makes you even worse IMO.No idea of returning her love.Elinor is a much better person then I am to forgive Willouhby and feel bad for him.Heck the whole time he was there I was hoping for someone anyone to come in and hit him.Willoughby talking about how how Marianne would have looked as she died and how she was constantly before him.It reminds me of something that would have been said in a Gothic novel.Am I the only one who thought that had a Gothic feel to it?Willoughby acting like Eliza was to blame when he seduced her a 15 year old girl is just ridicous.

message 10: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I know it was hard for Marianne to see Willoughby as selfish by I am happy Elinor explained to her that he was.I agree with Elinor Willoughby always cared about himself first.

"My happiness never was his object"-Marianne

I am happy Marianne sees she was wrong in her actions and starts to mend her ways.Plus Mrs.Dashwood also sees she has made some wrong choices in letting Marianne be to open with Willoughby.

Robert and Lucy it seems a justice that Mrs.Ferrars gave everything to one son and he did the thing sha had disinhetered the other son for wanting to do.

message 11: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
I bet Miss Morton didn't want to marry either of them. I just think it was all in Mrs Ferrars head :)

Agree 100% about Willoughby. Awful man!!

message 12: by Irene (new)

Irene | 271 comments I don't really know why, but I've always imeagined Miss Morton similar to Anne De Bourgh, rich, with high rank and supposed to do everything better than anyone else (true or not).

message 13: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Oh interesting!! I think it is interesting how she is mentioned a fair amount but never met

message 14: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments Irene wrote: "I don't really know why, but I've always imeagined Miss Morton similar to Anne De Bourgh, rich, with high rank and supposed to do everything better than anyone else (true or not)."

Really?If I had to imagaine her as a character I think she would be more Elizabeth Elliot then Anne De Bourgh.I don't know why.

message 15: by Nicole D. (last edited Jul 14, 2013 05:11PM) (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I know I can't believe Mrs.Ferrars forgave her and then she was the favored daughter-in-law.How messed up is that?But then Edward did say that Robert was her favorite.

I do wish also we had seen Edward's Proposal to Elinor and more of Marianne and Brandon's courtship but we can imagaine but I wish Austen had just given us a few more paragraphs.

I think Lucy planned to switch to Robert as so as Mrs.Ferrars made him heir and she had the way to do it.What do you all think?I know marrying was really the only way for a women back then but I still can't excuse Lucy's behavior like I can't excuse the Bingley sisters behavior either.Lucy has a bad nature only a bad person would do what she did to Elinor in the end and Elinor had been so kind to her.

I know Edward does talk more in the last few pages then he does in almost the whole novel but I think it's his low spirits who because he has to marry Lucy who he doesn't love or respect.Would you be happy looking forward being disinherted and pennyless with Lucy?I know I wouldn't.

message 16: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
It really never made sense that when Edward was going to marry Lucy she took away his fortune, but then when Robert, who now had the fortune, was going to marry Lucy, he got to keep the fortune... that is completely fair...

You are right about Edward. I wouldn't be happy if I was him having to marry someone I didn't love, or even

"I think Lucy planned to switch to Robert as so as Mrs.Ferrars made him heir and she had the way to do it.What do you all think?"

What exactly do you mean here? Sorry :P

message 17: by Nicole D. (new)

Nicole D. (thereadingrebel) | 158 comments I mean Soph if Lucy saw a chance to get Robert to marry her and not Edward she would take it.As soon as he was made heir I think she was hoping to marry him if she got the chance.I sthink she really only wanted Edward for his money.

I don't think once Mrs.Ferrars legally gave the money to Robert she could take it back.I believe she would if she could but if I remember she talked to her lawyer and I bet she legally settled it on Robert and she couldn't undo it.I don't think she ever thought Robert wouldn't do what she wanted.

message 18: by Marren (last edited Jul 15, 2013 05:20PM) (new)

Marren | 764 comments Eh, actually Willoughby apology says to me that he did care for Marianne but that feeling took second place to his purse.

Robert seemed to be the favourite son of the Ferrars. Edward does not act like a Ferrars at all but Robert certainly smelled and acted like one. In my mind, Edward was heir to the money because he was the first born son. Notice how Lucy worm a way into the life and hearts of the Ferrars. I suspect, they are all happy bunch sitting around the fire, counting their fortune.

message 19: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Ooh I see Nicole!!! That was definitely her plan!! As soon as the money was moved! She never cared for his feelings.

You are right, Edward really isn't a Ferrars....

Willoughby. I don't understand that man!!

message 20: by Louise Sparrow (last edited Oct 07, 2013 02:36PM) (new)

Louise Sparrow (louisex) | 262 comments I finally finished! And I agree with all of you on these last few chapters.

I'm not sure I pictured Miss Morton but I did find myself wondering if she knew anything about it all, given how faulty John Dashwood's descriptions of the others are I don't place any reliance on his idea of her.

I would have liked to have seen more of the proposals of course but Jane Austen did tend to leave it to our imaginations.

As much as I dislike Lucy, I have to admire her manipulation of Robert and Mrs Ferrers, it really is masterful considering their previous opinions of her.

There is an afterword in my copy by Henry Hitchings, whilst most of it is interesting I don't follow his reasoning for the last bit...

"Can such a man [as Colonel Brandon (as described by a younger Marianne, Mrs Palmer and Willoughby)] be the right choice for Marianne? Instinctively we feel he cannot, and the atmosphere at the novel's close is oddly sour. However, Austen appears to suggest that the only way Marianne can continue to lead a rich inner life is by being entrusted to the care of someone about whom it is nigh on impossible to feel anything."

Did anyone feel that way? I certainly got the impression that at first Marianne simply gave in because once she realised he loved her, along with the merits her family had perceived in him from the beginning, she saw no reason not to marry him, but I would say that Jane Austen's last mention of Marianne contradicts it...

"Marianne could never love by halves; and her whole heart became, in time, as much devoted to her husband, as it had once been to Willoughby."

message 21: by Sophie, Your Lovely Moderator (new)

Sophie | 2624 comments Mod
Of her novels is it Pride and Prejudice in which we see the most of a proposal? Between the first and second proposal's from Darcy I think we see the most of the 6 novels... if my memory serves me correctly?

"Marianne could never love by halves; and her whole heart became, in time, as much devoted to her husband, as it had once been to Willoughby."
I think that explains that Marianne did eventually fully love Brandon. I do understand why it may seem hard to imagine as the end is all cleared up rather quickly. But, I do think she did eventually love him. I loved this moment in the 2008 series. We saw a little bit of Marianne's feelings changing towards Brandon and then when she tells Elinor of being engaged to him, she seems genuinely happy and thrilled when she says that she loves him.

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