A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5) A Dance with Dragons discussion


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would Daenerys be a good fit for the Iron Throne

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message 1: by Fatin (new)

Fatin I've been looking for threads about Dany's ability to rule, and something along the lines of the equivalent of "white privilege." Basically dany thinks she knows what's better for the people than they do. Do any such threads exist?


Stavros Tsiakalos Actually, Dany is probably the only person who doesn't think she knows better. What she does is have a very pronounced sense of right and wrong. She acts based on her sense of justice, but seems quite aware that she does not know everything and that she can make mistakes.
She is the only person so far in the series who consistently tries to better herself and learn from mistakes.


message 3: by Fatin (new)

Fatin There was this particular article I read, but I sense sexist undertones. I'd like to discuss it, but the thing is, as much as I love Martin's world, and characters, I cannot read his work because I don't like his writing style. I've read all the wiki entries I could find, but suffice to say that doesn't really give me a good feel of the stuff. So I usually just creepy in book discussions.
(Please don't convince me to try and read the books, I've read the first, it was more than enough.)

Here's the article:
http://karentwalcott.hubpages.com/hub...

I'll copy paste it for people who don't want to open it.


message 4: by Fatin (last edited Jun 10, 2013 01:32PM) (new)

Fatin Please note, I don't necessarily agree with all being said in said article. But I do not think that Dany would be the right fit for the throne. I would much rather prefer Tyrion, and if not him then someone from the general population, say the game is eradicated, and democracy, or a similar system comes in.

The article:


#1
There Has Never Been a Queen Ruling in her own Right in Westeros


As the daughter of King Aerys Targaryen, Daenerys Targaryen is the last dragon, the Princess of Dragonstone and the last living member of House Targaryen, a dynasty that ruled the seven kingdoms for 300 hundred years. But Daenerys has no right to sit the Iron Throne because she is a woman. The laws of inheritance of Westeros are based on primogeniture and by those laws the Iron Throne passes from father to son or grandfather to grandson, brother to brother or uncle to nephew. No woman has ever sat upon the Iron Throne and ruled in her own right, not even Visenya or Rhaenys who conquered the seven kingdoms with their brother/husband, Aegon the Conqueror. Daenerys has no claim to the Iron Throne, which is a good thing, because she is a young fool.

Never in the history of Westeros has a woman ruled in her own right. After Aegon the Conqueror died the throne passed to his son, Aenys I. It did not pass to either of his sister queens who conquered the seven kingdoms alongside him. In the history of Westeros there has never been a queen regnant (queens who rule in their own right) only queen consorts because the laws of inheritance in Westeros are based on primogeniture. Primogeniture simply means that the firstborn son inherits not the firstborn child. For example, as the first trueborn son of the Lord of Winterfell, Robb Stark is the heir to House Stark. After Robb and his sons, come Bran and his sons and then Rickon and his sons. Only if all the males lines of House Stark are extinguished would Sansa Stark's son, not Sansa herself, inherit Winterfell. According to these laws, Viserys Targaryen had a claim to the throne as did Daenerys Targaryen's son by Khal Drogo, but Daenerys herself has no claim.

#2
Daenerys is Too Young and Foolish to be a Good Queen


Daenerys is compassionate and open hearted, but she is also foolish, stubborn, entitled and obsessed with what she believes to be her birthright. A prime example of Daenerys' stubborn short sightedness can be found in her goal of making Khal Drogo use his khalasaar to invade Westeros. She is unwilling to unleash Dothraki screamers on Westeros. When the Dothraki sack a city they burn crops and homes, rape women,and enslave children. They also drag the gods of their conquered lands back to line the Gods Way in Vaes Dothrak. The Dothraki would destroy the seven kingdoms. They would destroy Westeros and then move on to their next conquest. The Dothraki are nomads. They don't stay in one place for long. Daenerys knows all of this, but she is still willing to subject the people of Westeros to this death and destruction, merely because she believes that she has a right to the Iron Throne.




#3
Dany and Her "Need" for Cities


For all of her desire to retake the Iron Throne, Daenerys has a habit of getting sidetracked. She conquered first Yunkai and then Mereen, when she didn't have to. She could have passed Yunkai by without attacking it. She claims that she needed Yunkai because she needed supplies to feed her army, Dany could have bought what she needed and moved on. She also shouldn't have allowed so many non soldiers to follow her. I know that those people called her mother and she felt a duty to them, but she is not their mother. Most of them are older than her and should be capable of looking after themselves. Besides, what about her duty to the people of Westeros? Doesn't feel any obligation to her Westerosi subjects?

#4
Women are Fit to Rule, but Daenerys isn't a Woman


As a modern woman, of course I know that women are just as capable of ruling as men are, but Daenerys is not a woman. She is a girl. In the books she is so young that she barely has breasts. She is clearly a teenager and as such she doesn't always appreciate the consequences of her actions. She is willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of innocents just so that she can sit on the Iron Throne. She doesn't want to invade Westeros to rescue her people from the evils of a tyrant. She wants to conquer the seven kingdoms to reclaim her family's heritage and she doesn't seem to care how many of her Westerosi subjects has to die for her to do so.

Daenerys Targaryen has no right to the Iron Throne and she would not make a good queen.


Stavros Tsiakalos Not going to try to convince you to read the books :)
Honest answer though is that the article is a lot of rambling with no basis. And on top of that it contradicts itself: on one hand Dany is a bad ruler because she doesn't go conquer Westeros, on the other hand she is a bad ruler for wanting to conquer Westeros? The author should make up her mind. She should also try reading the books, instead of just projecting whatever she wants onto the pages and pretending that it is that which is written.


message 6: by Fatin (new)

Fatin Wait, where does it say that the person who wrote the article hasn't read the books?


infael Message 3:

"...as much as I love Martin's world, and characters, I cannot read his work because I don't like his writing style. I've read all the wiki entries I could find, but suffice to say that doesn't really give me a good feel of the stuff. So I usually just creepy in book discussions. Please don't convince me to try and read the books, I've read the first, it was more than enough.)"


message 8: by Fatin (new)

Fatin Oh, I was talking about me. I didn't write the article.
I copy-pasted the article, but I have no idea whether or not the person who wrote it has read the books, I'd assume they have.


message 9: by Ted (last edited Jun 11, 2013 01:55PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ted Whether Daenerys would make a good queen atop the iron throne is a valid and interesting question. I think she has the makings of a just monarch who actually cares about the small folk. Whether the experience of the coming war will strip that away or not, no one can say as yet.

My feeling is that in the end she will choose another path, one of her own devising and leading to her personal happiness. But I've been wrong before and there is ample evidence to suggest she could be (view spoiler).

I will say that I find it curious to have an interest in GRRM's world but no desire to read the rest of the series. But to each their own. At least there is the HBO show to provide some taste of it.


Meera My personal view is that Dany will become queen of Westeros. As to whether or not she'll be a good queen...well we shall see. However, I really disagree with the points the article has made.

1. There Has Never Been a Queen Ruling in her own Right in Westeros

Never say never! Just because it hasn't happened before does not mean it cannot happen in the future. A real world example would be Margaret Thatcher - before her there had never been a female prime minister in the UK, but she broke that barrier. There has never been a woman ruling Westeros, but maybe Dany will change that. Besides, as Queen she could always change the law.

2. Daenerys is Too Young and Foolish to be a Good Queen
3. Dany and Her "Need" for Cities

Yes, she's far too young and inexperienced the be a good queen, but that's at the beginning of the series. But she has matured a great deal since then and she does learn from her mistakes. I have to admit that her obsession with cities is a little annoying, but I can see why GRRM is taking the plot that way. Her cities are teaching her how to rule, so it seems as though GRRM is preparing her to become queen (maybe).

The mother thing's been taken a bit too literally here... They call her mother because she gave the ex-slaves new-life by freeing them.

4. Women are Fit to Rule, but Daenerys isn't a Woman

In pre-modern medicinal society if you could bear children then you're a woman. Dany got pregnant, which implies that she's a woman.


Vahagn Tumanyan Absolutely not. Danny is too young, too foolish, too ignorant and too arrogant and too naive, to rule Westeros, and control people like Varys, Littelfinger, random guys who want more power.

Then again, my opinion may be biased, because I don't like Danny, I think she should have died.
The Chimera was killed by Sir Barristan, the warlock was killed for her, when attacking Yunkai the second sons turned to her because she was beautiful. I mean with so many opportunities to die, she should've done it.


message 12: by Sarah (last edited Jun 15, 2013 04:26PM) (new) - added it

Sarah Well HBO show is making her out to be something like a messiah. She is the most powerful character and she started from nothing but her army is growing and people seem to want to serve her and want her as their leader and she is proving to be a natural. Her people are going to fight for her and she is the mother of dragons. She doesn't view freedom as something given, it is a birthright. I want to see Danny sit the Iron Throne. It seems to me it is her destiny. People are saying she is young and naive but she knows who to rely on for advice and direction and the decisions she has always made on her own have turned greatly to her advantage - freeing the slaves and when she had her unsullied turn on their previous master. I think no one is better suited to rule Westeros. She reminds me somewhat of Cleopatra. But I also think she will be a just queen and the people will love her and she will take care of them. She has made some very strategic moves-just as gutsy as Tywin Lanister - but where the Lanisters make more enemies Danny is building an empire.


message 13: by Sarah (last edited Jun 15, 2013 04:36PM) (new) - added it

Sarah Vahagn wrote: "Absolutely not. Danny is too young, too foolish, too ignorant and too arrogant and too naive, to rule Westeros, and control people like Varys, Littelfinger, random guys who want more power.

Then ...

Little Finger wants power, I think Varys wants what is best for the realm and I think ultimately Danny would eat Little Finger alive and Varys will become a strong supporter of Danny. I don't think Danny is arrogant, I think she is chosen, just like Bran knows he must find the three eyed crow because he is the one who is going to play an important role in stopping the white walkers from invading Westeros. It is all up to Martin I guess and we will have to wait and see.(Sigh). I am sick of waiting.



Vahagn Tumanyan "Danny would eat Little Finger alive." I strongly doubt it, unless grey worm, Barristan or Jorah kill Baelish.

In my opinion G.R.R.M was already favoring her much, and HBO is making her the super-character. She is not fit to rule, everything she did in stage of diplomacy was done by her dragons scaring her opponents or random guys just falling in love. Even her dragons were quite randomly given to her as a gift. If she went against a character like Jon Snow who doesn't only think of himself, doesn't panic and has strong sense of tactics and strategy, she'd die.

Based on the choices Jon made on the wall, he is like the best strategist in Westeros. If anyone will be a very good king it's Jon.

I sincerely hope that Jon is alive, or will be brought back.

It's hard to say who will stop the white walkers it may be Jon, or Bran or Danny, or the actual Azor Ahai (reborn). GRRM created a mess, I hope he can wrap everything up in an epic ending, however if Danny becomes the ruler of Westeros I'd be disappointed. I wouldn't be so disappointed if Aegon rules though.


message 15: by Sarah (last edited Jun 16, 2013 01:23AM) (new) - added it

Sarah I haven't read Dance With Dragons yet and I know there is more to John's story and a question to who his mother is and even if Danny is truelly the last remaining Targarean. But Danny has devoured other powerful men wether it be by her dragons or the men that serve her. And I am team Danny. And I will be disappointed if Danny doesn't take the iron throne - opposite of you. I think she is bad ass. I would love Martin to make this happen and change the history of Westeros.

Screw that- after all the characters he has killed off if he lets Aegon rule, a character he hasn't even developed until now - well that will be stupid on his part. We agree on one very big issue. Martin has created a mess and I greatly anticipate him wrapping this up in some sort of epic way. He said he has done everything for a reason and I am waiting for him to show it to us. My patience is being tested.


Vahagn Tumanyan Well, I'm sorry for the non-intended spoilers that I wrote in my comment. Plus don't forget Arya, she's a cool character too, whose story gets more and more interesting, I don't think GRRM will just leave her.


message 17: by Sarah (new) - added it

Sarah Ted wrote: "Whether Daenerys would make a good queen atop the iron throne is a valid and interesting question. I think she has the makings of a just monarch who actually cares about the small folk. Whether the..."

Ted - you have a spoiler and I don't get it. Explain - or is that giving something away - haven't read the last book.


message 18: by Fatin (last edited Jun 16, 2013 01:48AM) (new)

Fatin Just about the spoilers, are you guys offended about them? Because it is in the discussion thread of the last released book, so obviously people are allowed to talk about what happened in the book and speculations about the next book.

Anyway, I don't particularly like Dany either, and I think it would be best if she never goes to Westeros. At least to rule. Maybe one of her dragons goes haywire and escapes over the sea and Bran controls it to battle the white-walkers. I dunno.
Dany might be a good/okay Queen for the land she's in, but the "game" would end up with her dead very soon. And if not, then she's just a puppet figure, with everybody around her constantly saving her ass.
Also, I thought Varys was all for the Targaryens?


message 19: by Fatin (new)

Fatin Rickon will arrive out of nowhere to be Warden/King of the North? Which will no longer be the North?


message 20: by Sarah (new) - added it

Sarah I am not offended but can only speculate on what I have read so far. I also may be being influenced by the show. Look. Danny must be very important. She is a dragon. Fire does not burn her and she had the power to hatch the dragons. It has got to be important.


message 21: by Sarah (last edited Jun 16, 2013 02:10AM) (new) - added it

Sarah If Danny has the power and charisma to have others fight for her and defend her how does that make her a puppet? They are the puppets. And I didn't think of that - Bran is a warg and he maybe could control a dragon.

I gotta read the next book but got so frustrated waiting for the other books I decided to wait for the series to finish or wait for HBO to catch up - whichever came first - before moving on. However the show has taken some liberties like including Theon's story in season 3. That I know is in book 5.


Vahagn Tumanyan Not the charisma teenage breasts and ass. Which I find quite revolting. Plus she doesn't have to do much to have Barristan fight for her with all his wounded honor and pride.


message 23: by Sarah (new) - added it

Sarah I always speculated that John and Danny and Bran and Tyrion and certain others may ban together for a greater good and not necessarily be enemies.


message 24: by Fatin (new)

Fatin Well, I suppose it's a personal preference, but the way you're talking of her, is as if she's a prophet. I don't particularly agree with the concept of prophets. There are others with magic powers, they've all worked towards improving them, Dany just takes them for granted. "what about my magic?" yeah yeah yeah okay Dany.
I've seen people helping Dany because of her beauty and her dragons, and the power she's established I don't see that she gained it herself. My views are biased though. I don't like her character, and the way she's portrayed on tv just pisses me off even more.

Doesn't this picture make you uncomfortable? White ruler amongst a sea of brown people, calling her their liberator?


message 25: by Fatin (new)

Fatin All I ask of Martin is to give Tyrion a semi-happy ending, and not kill off Arya. The rest I will bear.


message 26: by Sarah (last edited Jun 16, 2013 05:00PM) (new) - added it

Sarah Fatin wrote: "Well, I suppose it's a personal preference, but the way you're talking of her, is as if she's a prophet. I don't particularly agree with the concept of prophets. There are others with magic powers,..."

Oh I guess it should be a male ruler instead. She is not supposed to be a typical caucasion female but oddly colored hair and eyes, which they may not do the best of portraying in the show, which the show is making her to be prophet like. Maybe they should have made her people blue or something. Then it would be the blue Danny liberating the brown people.


message 27: by Sarah (last edited Jun 16, 2013 05:02PM) (new) - added it

Sarah Keshena wrote: "It would be unsatisfactory if Aegon got the iron throne. We know nothing about him. Dany, on the other hand,we have followed since she was a scared child bride dreaming of the house with the red do..."

Me too, Danny my fav, but oh shit I think I just read some spoilers. I am not paying attention to this.


message 28: by Ted (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ted I was referring to the prophecy in the books about a shadowy figure named Azor Ahai. Part of the prophecy is that he/she (one or the other!) will arrive via smoke and fire to rule Westeros and there are other signs to look for as well.

There are two major camps for who AA could be (and several minor ones). One is Jon Snow. In book 5 Melisandre the red priestess is at the Black Tower where Jon is and she has a predilection for burning things and people. As well Jon is in peril as book 5 ends.

The other major camp is Daenerys Stormborn. You'll recall she walked into the funeral pyre for Drogo and several hours later emerged unburnt and with 3 dragons. You could say she was reborn of smoke and ash.

The primary characteristic of Azor Ahai is they will wield a flaming red sword that emits heat. A couple characters have had burning swords but none so far have emitted heat (in particular Stannis' sword).

This is old news for most series readers so I regret this long post but for those who have yet to encounter the theories, it's important information.


message 29: by Sarah (new) - added it

Sarah Don't be sorry. I am aware that this thread is going to have them.


message 30: by [deleted user] (new)

I think she has potential,if she has the right cabinet.
She could be like Nymeria the warrior-princess.I always thought that was foreshadowing by GRRM when Arya chose that name for her direwolf.


message 31: by Maki (new) - rated it 4 stars

Maki Adum You know, I've always actually rooted more for Stannis than for Daenerys. Everybody seems to absolutely love her, and don't get me wrong, I think she's an awesome character. But I also think she knows pretty much nothing, NOTHING about Westeros besides what Viserys told her (and I'm sure he didn't know much either).

She always had the plus of the dragons, but she has neglected them for so long I think the only thing they do is exist. That's it. When they finally did something (taking Dany to the Red Waste - or was it the Dothraki Sea? I don't even remember, her story is dragging too much and my attention drifting - and the whole thing with the Dornish) I was like "FINALLY!". I actually think she deserves it: the whole her dragons are wild beasts and more a danger than a plus thing. She shouldn't have neglected them for so long.

She has made too many mistakes, and I understand that. That's how life works. But this being a storyline we're following, I just can't wait for it to go somewhere, anywhere. I also think she's a little foolish (specially concerning her marriage in Meereen and the whole Daario thing).

If she wants to go and rule Westeros, she should get her priorities straight. She's straying too much from her path. Yes, she's learning to rule, but again, she knows nothing about the kingdom she's after.

Having said this, I can totally see her not ruling Westeros after all. I do think her dragons will be a major part of what's happening over there (how can they not) but I'm doubting if she'll become Queen of Westeros after all. I'm not even sure I would like her to be.

I've always seen Stannis (and specifically, Ser Davos) as more appropiate for the Iron Throne (and Hand of the King). If it wasn't for her crazy queen and dubious Melisandre, I would 100% root for him.


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

I've always been partial to Davos.Just his common sense and way with people,and probably the fact that he's a lowborn.


message 33: by Seed (new) - rated it 4 stars

Seed The people of Westeros and the game of thrones would eat Dany alive by herself alive. Now that she's possibly getting a small council together with the likes of Tyrion, Jorah, Grey Worm, and Barristan (possibly Varys, forget about Victarion), she may be able to pull it off.


message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

See,I agree with Seed,with the right people on the council I think she could pull it off.


message 35: by Josh (new) - rated it 4 stars

Josh varys would not be on her council. varys' plot consists of putting aegon (regardless of lineage) on the throne. another targaryen, and if aegon is not actually aegon, a true targaryen would put a rather large wrench in varys' mechanations and likely throw westeros back into a chaotic civil war.

i know it's a moot point as you were only speculating about strong, intelligent council members that may show allegiance to a targaryen, but i figured i'd add my two cents (groats?) anyway.

not certain if tyrion will be able to convince her of his loyalty either, especially when she sees him with plumm and mormont. we shall see...


Hjörvar Logi I don't get it.

So Daenerys gets the throne and becomes queen, what next? She's barren - Can't have children... Who's going to rule after her time? It doesn't matter if she succeeds, the targaryen line ends with her. I haven't been excited for the Dany storyline since she got her dragons for exactly that reason, she can keep screwing around in the middle of nowhere for all I care.

Fine, fine, Aegon could maybe be a prince to her being queen and could marry and have heirs but I doubt GRRM would make the story end that way.

I think it's more likely that Aegon is murdered than crowned (he's to much of a deus ex machina solution and GRRM knows it). I think this story is about how the 7 kingdoms learned to rule themselves after the targaryen were extinct and I think the most likely couple to sit on the throne is Sanza and her new Boyfriend.

I think the best thing Dany can do is forget about this queen business and go help her nephew win back the kingdom. She has dragons and an army and he has potential. However she is to stupid, young and vain to realize this and will probably be the one to kill him.


message 37: by Fatin (new)

Fatin Sansa's new boyfriend? Littlefinger? :/

lol @sansa on the throne though, it's such a GRRM thing to do, hardly anybody would expect it. I was talking to the tv show fans and most forget she's even here. "Ohmygod poor Cat thought all her babies were dead" "...Sansa?" "Oh yeah!" Or "You're forgetting three starks are still alive. House Stark ain't dead." "uh four, you forgot Sansa"


message 38: by Josh (new) - rated it 4 stars

Josh reminds of this old exchange from the simpsons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ccI2...

replace "milhouse" with "sansa"


message 39: by David (new)

David I believe that all of Aerys II Targaryen's children suffered from the "Mad" disease. Including Rhaegar who may be Jon Snow's father. And that is only if the parents are brother and sisters. If Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark are Jon Snows parents then he may not get that only because Lyanna and Rhaegar are not sister and brother. As far as Daenerys is concerned, she is not suffering from that now. However, just like her father it came upon him later in his years.

I don't believe she will rule Westeros. For those who read Feast For Crows, remember that Aemon Targaryen now knows what the purpose of the Dragons are for. They are not for conquering Westeros. They are for fighting against the "The Others" beyond the Wall. Even one of the Arch Maesters that Samwell Tarly spoke with about Aemon Targaryen said that he had to leave in order to instruct her.

Daenerys is a good person. She has the right intentions on freeing slaves in Essos. But, she does not know Westeros. She was not raised in Westeros. She knows more about Essos than she does Westeros. It has been well over 17 years since the Targaryens ruled Westeros. There are no crowds of people or cities clamoring for the return of the Targaryens except for only Dorne. And they only are in her corner only because of the dragons she possesses. Remember they want to seek revenge for Elia who was Rhaegar's wife that was raped and killed by Gregor Clegane and the Lannister lackies that wanted to kill and eradicate all Targaryens. That's It.

She is going back to Westeros with the 3 dragons because of information fed to her by her brother Viserys. He was only 8 or 9 years old when the sacking of Kings Landing took place. It's not as if matters of state was being shared with him. Any info that was ocming from him was biased. Probably 30% was correct based on his perspective. Then you have Jeor Mormont and Barristan Selmy who are telling a little more about Westeros than her brother could ever know but it is only being driven because these guys have been wronged in Westeros and would like to come back to Westeros with the "How you like me now" attitude for being treated the way they were.

And let's not forget Illyrio Mopatis from Pentos. He was the one who gave her the eggs to begin with. She would not know anything about the dragons if he did not give them to her as a gift. She is just a pawn right now.

These guys are telling her what she wants to hear. They need to tell her what she needs to hear. That is, her father and brother, Rhaegar started "Robert's Rebellion". Which caused her and her brother to be carried away from Westeros. Her father murdered Rickard Stark, his son Brandon Stark and Brandons friends. On top of that Aerys II wanted to burn down all of Kings Landing with wildfire. He was passed caring. He was out of control. The Starks have more of a beef , more than Daenerys. The Starks did not kill off little baby Targaryens, They did not eradicated family dynasties. In fact they did not get any satisfaction. Remember, it was Robert Baratheon who slew Rhaegar who supposedly kidnapped Lyanna Stark. And it was Jaimie Lannister who killed the Mad King for ordering the execution of the Starks.

Also, she has it in her head that the Starks are still bad guys for removing her father from the throne. Even after Barristan Selmy explained to her about Ned Stark trying to prevent the assasination attempt on her life. Barristan Selmy even had a look of disappointment on his face. Remember Barristan Selmy served 2 kings and knows about good and bad traits in a king. GRRM does put things in a book like that for nothing.

I believe that Daenerys feels a sense of entitlement. And that will lead to her downfall if she tries to take Westeros by force.

Also, note that she does not have true command over her dragons. They can be controlled by those horns in which Victarion Greyjoy has currently possesses one of them in Dance with Dragons.

Secondly, what has not mentioned much is that Bran Stark can warg into not only direwolves, birds, weirwood trees, but he can warg into humans as well. And remember Jojen Reed told him no one can do that.
I believe that Bran Stark can warg into a dragon. Again, I say GRRM does not put things into his book without it having some effect later on down the road in his books.

I strongly believe Daenerys will shine when she plays a part in fighting the "Others" and the Wight Walkers. But as far as conquering Westeros, I don't think that is going to happen.

Also, remember the North is not seeking to take the Iron Throne. They want to separate themselves from the 7 kingdoms and go back to the way it was before Aegon's Landing which was over 300 years ago. And let's not forget that Robb Stark made Jon Snow a Stark and made him heir to the King in the north and Winterfell. The north just want to be left alone now. They have constantly been the victims in paying fealty to these mad kings.

I just don't believe Daenerys will rule the Iron Throne. She will do damage with those dragons, but not rule the iron throne.


message 40: by Sarah (last edited Dec 16, 2013 04:23PM) (new) - added it

Sarah John Snow is also a Taergaryan I think. I think Ned promised his sister he would protect her son when she died during Chile birth - she died in a bed of blood. I think Reagar is the father - and isn't Reagar also Danny's older brother? That would make John her nephew.


message 41: by David (new)

David It really is all implied. At no time as far as we know did Lyanna make any mention of a baby. However, she did say to Ned "Promise me, Ned.". And then there was a pool of blood on the bed where she was and he arrived back at Winterfell with Jon Snow. I just hope GRRM does not play a dirty trick on us readers.

Yes, Rhaegar is Daenerys older brother. Jon would be daenerys's nephew. Which would also mean that Jon by rights is the heir to the Iron Throne. Because Rhaegar was the first male son of Aerys II Targaryen. And if Aegon(Elia's son who was supposedly had his head smashed as a child who has returned with Don Conington is fake) is dead, then Jon Snow should have the rightful claim to the throne as a Targaryen. Daenerys does not have a claim. All she has are dragons.





Sarah wrote: "John Snow is also a Taergaryan I think. I think Ned promised his sister he would protect her son when she died during Chile birth - she died in a bed of blood. I think Reagar is the father - and is..."

I believe that all of Aerys II Targaryen's children suffered from the "Mad" disease. Including Rhaegar who may be Jon Snow's father. And that is only if the parents are brother and sisters. If Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark are Jon Snows parents then he may not get that only because Lyanna and Rhaegar are not sister and brother. As far as Daenerys is concerned, she is not suffering from that now. However, just like her father it came upon him later in his years.

I don't believe she will rule Westeros. For those who read Feast For Crows, remember that Aemon Targaryen now knows what the purpose of the Dragons are for. They are not for conquering Westeros. They are for fighting against the "The Others" beyond the Wall. Even one of the Arch Maesters that Samwell Tarly spoke with about Aemon Targaryen said that he had to leave in order to instruct her.

Daenerys is a good person. She has the right intentions on freeing slaves in Essos. But, she does not know Westeros. She was not raised in Westeros. She knows more about Essos than she does Westeros. It has been well over 17 years since the Targaryens ruled Westeros. There are no crowds of people or cities clamoring for the return of the Targaryens except for only Dorne. And they only are in her corner only because of the dragons she possesses. Remember they want to seek revenge for Elia who was Rhaegar's wife that was raped and killed by Gregor Clegane and the Lannister lackies that wanted to kill and eradicate all Targaryens. That's It.

She is going back to Westeros with the 3 dragons because of information fed to her by her brother Viserys. He was only 8 or 9 years old when the sacking of Kings Landing took place. It's not as if matters of state was being shared with him. Any info that was ocming from him was biased. Probably 30% was correct based on his perspective. Then you have Jeor Mormont and Barristan Selmy who are telling a little more about Westeros than her brother could ever know but it is only being driven because these guys have been wronged in Westeros and would like to come back to Westeros with the "How you like me now" attitude for being treated the way they were.

And let's not forget Illyrio Mopatis from Pentos. He was the one who gave her the eggs to begin with. She would not know anything about the dragons if he did not give them to her as a gift. She is just a pawn right now.

These guys are telling her what she wants to hear. They need to tell her what she needs to hear. That is, her father and brother, Rhaegar started "Robert's Rebellion". Which caused her and her brother to be carried away from Westeros. Her father murdered Rickard Stark, his son Brandon Stark and Brandons friends. On top of that Aerys II wanted to burn down all of Kings Landing with wildfire. He was passed caring. He was out of control. The Starks have more of a beef , more than Daenerys. The Starks did not kill off little baby Targaryens, They did not eradicated family dynasties. In fact they did not get any satisfaction. Remember, it was Robert Baratheon who slew Rhaegar who supposedly kidnapped Lyanna Stark. And it was Jaimie Lannister who killed the Mad King for ordering the execution of the Starks.

Also, she has it in her head that the Starks are still bad guys for removing her father from the throne. Even after Barristan Selmy explained to her about Ned Stark trying to prevent the assasination attempt on her life. Barristan Selmy even had a look of disappointment on his face. Remember Barristan Selmy served 2 kings and knows about good and bad traits in a king. GRRM does put things in a book like that for nothing.

I believe that Daenerys feels a sense of entitlement. And that will lead to her downfall if she tries to take Westeros by force.

Also, note that she does not have true command over her dragons. They can be controlled by those horns in which Victarion Greyjoy has currently possesses one of them in Dance with Dragons.

Secondly, what has not mentioned much is that Bran Stark can warg into not only direwolves, birds, weirwood trees, but he can warg into humans as well. And remember Jojen Reed told him no one can do that.
I believe that Bran Stark can warg into a dragon. Again, I say GRRM does not put things into his book without it having some effect later on down the road in his books.

I strongly believe Daenerys will shine when she plays a part in fighting the "Others" and the Wight Walkers. But as far as conquering Westeros, I don't think that is going to happen.

Also, remember the North is not seeking to take the Iron Throne. They want to separate themselves from the 7 kingdoms and go back to the way it was before Aegon's Landing which was over 300 years ago. And let's not forget that Robb Stark made Jon Snow a Stark and made him heir to the King in the north and Winterfell. The north just want to be left alone now. They have constantly been the victims in paying fealty to these mad kings.

I just don't believe Daenerys will rule the Iron Throne. She will do damage with those dragons, but not rule the iron throne.


message 42: by David (new)

David I made a slight error when I last spoke about Daenerys's purpose. I said something like, "Aemon Targaryen now knows what the purpose of the Dragons are for. They are not for conquering Westeros. They are for fighting against the "The Others" beyond the wall"

The correct quote should have been, "Daenerys is the Prince to come." Aemon Targaryen realized that the prophetic writings did not account for Dragons being aSexual. Which means they can be either male or female. And because Daenerys is a "Dragon", she just happened to be a female. So everyone was looking for a "Male" prince.

And Aemon Targaryen realized Daenerys's true purpose and needed to get to her to explain these things to her. Her purpose is not to take the Iron Throne. It is to fight the others with her powers.

I apologize for the earlier statement that I made. I guess I just got carried away with Dragons. However, it is obvious she will have to use her dragons.

Again, I will be more mindful of these things.


Matthew Williams Absolutely! She's a conscientious ruler who also seems to know how to be pragmatic and make compromises when its needed of her. What's more, she's learned from her many mistakes ruling in Mereen. But all her failures extended all from a spirit of benevolence and social justice. So really, I think she would be the best choice to heal The Realm after all its endured.


message 44: by Sarah (new) - added it

Sarah Me too.


Moarbooxpls I think she is good-hearted and well-meaning, but she is crazy due to inbreeding like most of the Targaryens and not fit to rule.

Plus, isn't she barren after her miscarriage? The wars for the throne would just start up again once it became obvious no heir was forthcoming.


message 46: by Petter (last edited Dec 19, 2013 06:48AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Petter Avén I think Daenerys would make as effective and "good" a ruler as could be hoped for, considering the circumstances and other candidates. Westeros is really more of a confederation, The Seven Kingdoms, than it is one unified country; just think of the size of the territory - no medieval "nation" that vast could maintain effective central rule even with raven messengers. The term I think we're looking for is "reign", while "rule" is mostly in the hands of the Seven Kingdoms. And so, does it really matter that much if Daenerys has a few shortcomings? Most of those she is likely to overcome as she matures, and gets to know her people and advisors.


message 47: by Chris (last edited Dec 20, 2013 11:35AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Chris Bumpas I haven't read everyone's replies In this thread but I feel like the whole point of her ruling Mereen was Martin's way of making her grow up and get passed the youthful ignorance before returning to westeros. I have read where alot of people were getting annoyed by how naive and childish she had become in Mereen. I think this was intentional because if you remember at the end of DwD when she is wandering through the Dothraki sea and hallucinating, she hears her brother and the old bear telling her to remember who she is and how westeros is her place.
I think in the next book she will realize this and be a badass again.


Chris Bumpas Fatin wrote: "Well, I suppose it's a personal preference, but the way you're talking of her, is as if she's a prophet. I don't particularly agree with the concept of prophets. There are others with magic powers,..."

I think you should read the books first and quit basing your opinions on the TV show and for God's sake get off the race issue.


Chris Bumpas Fatin wrote: "All I ask of Martin is to give Tyrion a semi-happy ending, and not kill off Arya. The rest I will bear."

Lmao at this comment from someone who hasn't and won't read the books.


Patrick Daeny would not make a good queen. However, Aegon would make a good king.


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