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The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, #2)
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Kvothe | 28 comments What the F*** is up with the Cthaeh?
Is it what poisoned the seven citys?
Did the his honor gaurd (whatever they're called i can't remember)of the Cthaeh let Kvothe talk to him? Why didn't they stop him???

Finally, is the Cthaeh even a Tree???????


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
No the Cthaeh is decidedly not a tree, it is somehow bound to the tree.

Some people believe that sympathy was used to trap it there and the Lackless is box is the link in a way. Which I really enjoy reading about, its a great theory. I think you might be able to find it in the other Ctheah page in the archives.

I never really considered it might be what poisoned the seven cities, but thats certainly an interesting idea and I think I could get behind that. We know it poisoned Lanre and it suggests that it has spoken with Cinder as well at some point. Maybe it spoke with all the Chandrian - I don't think we can see either way, but cool idea.

I have never been sure what is up with The Sithe. I don't know if they let him speak with it, if they weren't paying attention or not around, or if Kvothe and some other mortals may have an ability that lets them pass unnoticed.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments It is a huge gap, to fill. If the Sithe guard the Cthaeh so diligently then how did Kvothe get to the Cthaeh? He wasn’t being particularly sneaky. He just… you know walked up to it. I have always had trouble with this. But I also have no good answers to fill the gaps. I haven't read anything particularly compelling either. I'm Sure Bill will have something to contribute.


Kvothe | 28 comments What if they didnt want to stop him? for some reason? Maybe they thought he would destroy the Chandrian if they let him talk to the Cthaeh, so they did. For the "Greater Good"


message 5: by Bill (last edited Jun 08, 2013 09:04AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bill Servius Heiner wrote: "It is a huge gap, to fill. If the Sithe guard the Cthaeh so diligently then how did Kvothe get to the Cthaeh? He wasn’t being particularly sneaky. He just… you know walked up to it. I have always h..."

I wish I did have something. The question of how Kvothe got to the tree is a pretty big one. The only theory I have is that some agency wanted him to get to the tree, knowing what would happen if he did get there. (War, chaos, destruction, etc.) Under this theory, this agency would have arranged matters such that when Kvothe went wandering in the Fae alone, the Sithe guards were conveniently distracted.

There are quite a few problems with this, though. How would this unknown agency would have to be powerful, magical, and have an uncanny ability to see the future, because how else would the agency know exactly when Kvothe would wander to the Cthaeh? Or that he would go there *at all*? Under those criteria, the only being capable of diverting the Sithe at the exact moment might be the Cthaeh himself. How? Sometime in the distant past, the Cthaeh manipulated another individual such that this individual would return to the Fae at exactly the right time to distract the Sithe guards, giving Kvothe the time he needs to speak with the Cthaeh.

Edit: Also, this ties in with another somewhat popular theory, that the Cthaeh is the real Big Bad Evil Guy in the world, and his escape from the tree (which Kvothe will enable at some point in book 3) is the cause of the war, the scrae, the skinwalking demons, etc.


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thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
There are a couple good rebuttals to the huge gapness of the Sithe being derelict at the moment Kvothe visited Cthaeh. They're not, y'know, perfect, though.

The whole explanation comes after Bast says he knows what every Fae child knows. As a child, I knew George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and a bunch of other nonsense. So it gets an extra grain of salt.

He calls guarding "the" Cthaeh their oldest and most important charge. We know they do, or at least used to do other things, like ride out hunting skin dancers. Maybe they were busy.

We know Cthaeh's been attributed responsibility for a bunch of allegedly awful stuff, so getting by them is either only infrequent or they haven't been on the job the whole time. Who knows?

Everyone who's heard about "the" Cthaeh would technically be plague carriers according to Bast's logic. The Sithe, having dedicated some portion of their time to proximal action because of and in relation to Cthaeh, by definition bear a greater portion of his influence. They are, as it were, part of the plague ship, agents of Cthaeh. I'd imagine it laughing a lot about that.

I'm using scare quotes around "the" 'cause he introduces himself without the article. I'm kind of in favor of them being busy elsewhere whether or not that's the result of Cthaeh's exquisite manipulation or simply other duties as assigned. I men, they have an entire culture warning folk from going anywhere near it, why be constantly vigilant?


Karen | 53 comments I chuckled when I read your line "maybe they were busy."

BUT. I started to think about things chronologically, and it seems to me that Kvothe meets the Cthaeh right after he meets Cinder. Remembering, of course, that time moves differently in Fae. In his whole time there, only 3 days pass in the mortal world, right?

So. Maybe when Cinder looks up to the sky during his fight with Kvothe, he's watching the Sithe coming for him? And maybe the Sithe haven't gotten back to their posts before Kvothe wanders by.

Lots of maybes. But we know the Chandrian are scared of the Sithe... Haliax tells us as much way back at the beginning of NotW.

So I'm willing to accept that the Sithe weren't there. That had always been a nagging point for me.


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
The only theory I have is that some agency wanted him to get to the tree, knowing what would happen if he did get there. (War, chaos, destruction, etc.) Under this theory, this agency would have arranged matters such that when Kvothe went wandering in the Fae alone, the Sithe guards were conveniently distracted.




I admit the others sound more plausible, but I think this would be the most entertaining ultimately. Especially if Pat wanted to make an off shoot story from Kvothe's story about a different character who also blames themselves for whatever happens to the Four Corners.

Another idea I had after reading some of these is maybe Ctheah was talking to someone else shortly before Kvothe arrived and the Sithe went after that person leaving the tree ungaurded. Maybe a little coincidental, but we don't really have anywhere to draw the line. *sigh*


Karen | 53 comments @Amber.... Whoa. Hadn't thought about that. Wouldn't it be great if it were Denna somehow?

Cool idea....


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Actually, that would be kinda awesome if it were Denna and could be potential explanation for her constant movement and secrecy.


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Mike Morrison (mjmorrison617) | 9 comments Holy crap! If Denna talked to the tree that might explain her alternate info about the Chandrian being the good guys...and the Cthaeh tells the truth.

This is doubtful, but would be pretty cool...


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David | 5 comments I just found this group (and this site) and I am very glad I did. I enjoy PR more than any author, and am glad to see others thought as much of these books as I do! I do have a relevant question - how do you guys pronounce Cthaeh?? Or has Pat discussed it somewhere?


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
You can hear it on the audio book, Pat worked with Nick to get all the pronunciation and accents correctly.

I believe it is pronounced:

KATHAY


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Not to be confused with Kathy.

"Ay" as in Ay, Mate.


David | 5 comments Thanks for clarifying.


message 16: by Brandon (last edited Jun 16, 2013 11:19PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Brandon | 74 comments I haven't seen anything to support this, but could the Sithe be what the fae call the Amyr? I just had that thought reading through this thread and can't think of anything off the top of my head to contradict it. Could be total BS, but it seems to fit now that I think of it. They know Kvothe has a grudge against their mutual enemy the Chandrian so they let him speak with the Cthaeh, or they are off chasing Cinder. Cthaeh obviously directs Kvothe to Cinder and the Chandrian.

The agents of Cthaeh is an interesting idea as well, but it makes the most sense that the Chandrian are the agents of the Chtaeh and are searching for the box to free Chtaeh and the Amyr/Sithe are trying to stop them. However I do like the theory that the Amyr are the bads. Which the Amyr being the worst of them on the pottery hints towards. As the girl states at least.

More random thoughts, could Chaeth be Iax/Jax? Another thing I have nothing to back it up w/ but hey shoot me down please. :) (New to this page and haven't gone through all the archives yet. So could have been discussed. Lets go see)


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
, but could the Sithe be what the fae call the Amyr?

I doubt this. Felurian references the Amyr specifically calling them Amyr, not Sithe and that is while in Fae. Also, Bast listen's to the stories of the Amyr but never brings up the Sithe until it works its way into the story on it's own suggesting the groups are different and have different goals.

More random thoughts, could Chaeth be Iax/Jax?
No, Ctheah is definitely not Iax/Jax, Bast specifically says that Iax or Jax (depending on what version of the book you have, this is how we figured out the two are likely the same) spoke to the Ctheah before stealing the moon.


Soap! | 46 comments But, why the Lackless have the Loeclos box? Why not the Amyr? Or the Chandrian? Or the Sithe? To me, being inmortal and knowing the names of the things, steal a box that, maybe not everybody, but yes certain people know where are seems easy. Very easy. This speaking about Haliax.

I think that, wharever is in the box, don't care a lot for the Chandrian. Maybe the Amyr are different. The rise of the Aturan Empire only happened after the Loeclos family splitted into four parts. The part of the family that lived in Atur lost all his power and influence. And we know the Aturan Empire was 70% church. And the Amyr was the strong hand of the church.

And, an answer: Why some people hates iron? The Fae people, sure. But Felurian? She's old than Fae. A consequence of living in Fae?


Karen | 53 comments Soap, that's a good question as to why Meluan's family has the box. I hope we definitively find out on Day 3!!

My personal guess is that the Lackless family are descended from Lanre + Lyra. The box may contain something that either helps or kills the Chandrian, which is either good or bad, depending on whether you think Lanre is the hero of the story or not. And yes, that is interesting about the family and the parallels with the church.

I can't exactly figure out the answer of what's in the box, but I hope it's amazing!


message 20: by Amber, Master Sympathist (last edited Jun 18, 2013 09:45AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I think the Iron "allergy" isn't the product of Fae, its the product of genetics following the entrapment in Fae. If you lock up beings where 90% suffer debilitating effects from Iron, eventually, through thousands of years of procreation, everyone in Fae will suffer from the allergy.
The logical conclusion, since Felurian suffers from the effects of Iron, is that she always had this weakness and eventually it proliferated.

Also, we know the Amyr (originals at least), Chandrian, and Sithe are not mortals - so maybe the box is only to be used by mortals. We know that some form of mortal blood is likely to be used in the opening of the door at the very least, it stands to reason that if the box was made by mortals, the fail safe to open it, would have to be conducted by mortals as well, and apperantly of some specific blood type or possibly dna sequence, if the rhymes are correct.

Thats just my guess though as to why no one has used it before or taken it from them.


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I've also thought, to be completely random, that maybe the Lackless Box is something similar to The Pandorica but on a smaller scale.

Still doesn't reconcile that "husband's rocks" bit though....

WHAT COULD THAT EVEN MEAN?!?! *sigh*


message 22: by Brandon (last edited Jun 18, 2013 11:07AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Brandon | 74 comments Yeah I saw he speaks with the cthaeh before stealing the moon. So he could have been the hermit/teccum possibly.

Maybe the Lackless are descendants of the sithe in some way?


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
@Brandon, I have always thought that in the story of Jax and the Moon the Hermit he meets on the Mountain was a representation of Ctheah.

However, after looking around online, I've read a shit ton of theories that it is Teccam and never understood why people thought that since we know next to nothing about Teccam. Is the prominent theory that Teccam and Ctheah are one in the same?


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Oh, and I wouldn't completely rule out the idea that the Sithe might be related to the Lackless line, but mostly because there is no support either way. We know almost nothing about them and even Bast finds Kote's definition of them lacking.


Soap! | 46 comments They think the hermit was Teccam because, when Kvothe is describing the Auditore, he describes a monument of Teccam, in front of his cave, with no footwear. Exactly the same way the hermit is described.

The husband's rocks... The only I can imagine is the rocks are the secrets of his husband. But I can't relate it to nothing... If in the song they only mentioned


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Okay! That makes some sense, with the Teccam relation. Do you know which book that is in? I'd sure like to read it again.


Soap! | 46 comments First book, I think. When Kvothe arrives to the University the first time, maybe. Or when he describes the city around the University. Sorry, I don't have the first book here, I lent it to my girlfriend. But my memory usually don't fail in this sort of thing. I bet the description is after Kvothe meets Wilem at the archives, when he tries to enter without being an student. Wilem gives Kvothe indications of how the Auditorium are, and Kvothe runs out.


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Cool, thanks, I'll give it a shot.


Karen | 53 comments So, quick question...if the old man in the cave is Teccam, then who's Cthaeh in the story? The tinker at the beginning? Or does Cthaeth not make it into the story? That would be strange, because we're fairly sure (from reliable sources) that Jax/Iax spoke to Cthaeh... Hmm... Thoughts?


Karen | 53 comments ...Sorry, just realized... doesn't Jax leave the tinker his broken home? Cthaeh is bound to the tree... he says "maybe they did me a bad turn once" about Kvothe's search for the Chandrian... Jax most definitely isn't one of them, no?


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thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Amber, I can pull the Teccam quotes a bit later today. I think it's mentioned twice. On the other hand, it's a false equivalency. There's almost no way several written works from a pre-Creation War author have survived six millenia, the collapse of two civilizations, and the efforts of groups dedicated to eradicating Cthaeh's influence.

The hermit is the Cthaeh.


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Thanks Thistlepong, I was fairly certain of that, but never hurts to read it over again. It's definitely the most sound when you think it out.
Do we even have a line of reference for when Teccam was alive in the history of the Four Corners?

@Karen, I feel fairly certain that Jax is not one of the Chandrian, just through inference from the fae characters we meet.


Brandon | 74 comments Was going back and listening to the story of Jax and wondered if the hermit could be selitos? He sounds like a powerful namer and he seems like he could fit. Maybe I have already seen this somewhere. Also just re listened to Denna's song which painted selitos as the bad guy. If he were the hermit then became the Cthaeh when someone learned his true name and bound him to the tree (lanre/heliax), That could account for why the cthaeh hates the chandrian since lanre and selitos aren't the best of buds.

I am sure there is a thread somewhere I need to read but figured I'd put it out there anyways for the more veteran posters to direct me. ;)


Karen | 53 comments @Amber, I didn't think so, but thanks for the second opinion :) It just nags at me that the poor tinker was left "in a broken home, at the end of a broken road" after Jax screws him.


Brandon | 74 comments The story of Jax seems like a children's story that speaks on the creation of the Fae(folding house) if that is the case then the tinker is who Iax gets the ability to create/shape the fae. Cthaeh would be who shows him how to use that power.


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
We know that Selitos isn't the Ctheah through Timeline. Lanre meets Ctheah before Lyra's death and it's assumed he indirectly influences Lanre to become Haliax. Selito's doesn't even recognize this change at first and Lanre meets with Selitos after he's gained his power from speaking with Ctheah.

But I do speculate that at least Cinder had something to do with Ctheah's entrapment or something. I mean, Ctheah seem's pretty directly annoyed with Cinder out of all the Chandrian.

@Karen - Yah I've kinda always wondered about that too. Could the broken home at the end of a broken road represent the mortal world? Or possibly one of the seven cities? We have seen how the other home represents the Fae so it seems it must all be representational.


Brandon | 74 comments Ah good point, didn't think of that. Thanks for clarifying. Cinder does seem like the obvious person who bound him. You think all the chandrian are powerful namers or even some shapers? We know Lanre was


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
No problem, its all pretty convoluted, and I had actually toyed with that idea at first myself but realized later the timeline just wasn't lining up right.

I don't know if Cinder did anything on his own or had assistance from a group, but my assumption is he at least had a strong hand in trapping Ctheah, or had a strong hand in doing something the Ctheah didn't particularly like. I also noted that in the depiction of Cinder on the Mauthen Farm Pottery he's shown with a lone tree. I assumed this was the Ctheah's tree. Now the question is, if the tree is depicted within his scene because we should be associating Ctheah and Cinder directly or because in Fae artistry they put tragic figures or mark tragedies with the symbol of the Ctheah's tree. *sigh*

I like to think the first, with the backup that Ctheah seems to single Cinder out, but....even I admit thats a pretty flimsy basis for a theory.


As far as if all the Chandrian are namers, I can't really say. I think only Haliax is confirmed to have this ability since we directly see it, and its a huge part of his legend. But it seems the other chandrian kinda have to have something going on. I'd bet money on Cinder having some form of magic though since I'm fairly positive he is a fae from before fae like Felurian.

I feel like speculating about the other Chandrian outside of Cinder and Haliax is next to pointless though, all we really have to go off of is what they say in Adem.


Mike  (mcrowd) | 8 comments Amber wrote: " The only theory I have is that some agency wanted him to get to the tree, knowing what would happen if he did get there. (War, chaos, destruction, etc.) Under this theory, this agency would have a..."

Wouldn't you then run into the issue of how the previous person got through?


Mike  (mcrowd) | 8 comments Im thinking that the Amyr let him see cthaeh. Remember how he mysteriously got by its guards. And the description of the guards was rather close to that of the Amyr. In the sense that their actions are for the greater good. Maybe there is some other magic in play wherein they knew that Kvothe had to speak to the Cthaeh, even though great turmoil will result, the greater good would prevail with the destruction of the Chandrian or some other act.

In any case I believe he will either become Amyr, already has, or will work closely with them. Though the books have hinted at the Amyr, we actually know more about the Chandrian. I'm speaking about Amyr on the level of the Chandrian. Not the historical Amyr referenced in the books. I feel those work to assist and serve the real Amyr. I believe the storyteller in TNOTW was one of these.


Scans | 64 comments I believe you're referring to Skarpi (the storyteller), who seems to be a very interesting minor character. How does he know Kvothe's name when he (Kvothe) never introduces himself? Perhaps Skarpi is a namer?


message 42: by Ions (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ions scans, this is a popular theory, and is implied in such a way that I will believe that to be the case till pat says otherwise
:-)


message 43: by Ions (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ions scans, this is a popular theory, and is implied in such a way that I will believe that to be the case till pat says otherwise
:-)


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Wouldn't you then run into the issue of how the previous person got through?

HAHAHA, yah....good point. You got me there. LOL.

Im thinking that the Amyr let him see cthaeh.

I replied to you about this in another thread, unless I'm mistaking what you are trying to say (totally possible) the Amyr do not Gaurd the Ctheah. The Sithe do this, and Bast, the only fae able to give perspective on them in the story thus far, seems to think describing them as "for the greater good" a bad description.



Also the Historical Amyr referenced in the books are the real Amyr. Any others not serving the purpose of destroying the Chandrian for the greater good of humanity to seek vengeance for their contribution to the destruction of Myr Tarinial and the other cities, would be an offshoot branch of the Amyr.

Personally I could totally see Kvothe joining the Amyr though. He's obsessed with them and fighting against the Chandrian. Seems like a perfect match.


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Ions for what its worth, here's what think happened with the Cthaeh;
its known that anyone who attempts to find or talk to it are killed miles off and left to rot...yet some have found and talked to him.
#1 early on I assume that the guards weren't in place to kill off those who seek it out, or everyone who has spoken with it has done #2

#2 going in search for the Cthaeh puts you on the radar, knowing its name and going in search of it puts you on the path that's guarded. BUT not knowing anything AT ALL about the entities existence puts you on an un-guarded path. basically Kvothe was just walking, just doing nothing, and saw a tree, COOL! lets check it out...and tears.
others have said "damn to the rules, I NEED the wisdom of this entity, I will seek THE CTHAEH, and I will have knowing."
but this is the worst way to go about it. knowing its name, saying its name, thinking its name might be enough to get you shot miles from your goal.

tl;dr
ignorance is why kvothe was able to find it, and why he wasn't killed. he found a backdoor


message 46: by Bill (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bill Interesting thought about the Cthaeh and its guardians...Ok, they guard it. They kill those who approach. Those who speak. Those who attempt to leave.

This is countered by the Cthaeh's ability to see all possible futures. This leads to an interesting supposition.

Way back in ancient history, when the Cthaeh was originally bound, it had *one* tool at its disposal (the ability to see all possible futures.) We know that people who speak with the Cthaeh are the plague carriers who wreak incredible havoc.

Here is my supposition: Let's say that in the depths of history, the Cthaeh's guards lapsed in their vigil and allowed someone to speak with the Cthaeh *just once.)

The Cthaeh, being intelligent and well-nigh omniscient, speaks words to this vessel that have several purposes: to cause dissent, strife, suffering in the world, to cause his guardians to have another lapse in their vigil, and finally to lead another vessel to him at a point in the future when he is not being guarded.

Thousands of years later, that original victim is the proverbial butterfly flapping its wings that causes a hurricane.

And I realize I haven't been the most clear, but the point boils down do, why wasn't Kvothe intercepted on his way to/from the Cthaeh? Shouldn't the Sithe have gotten him on the way there or back? However, if, in the course of history, even one person ever had an encounter with the Cthaeh, its first impulse would have to have been how to get more visitors. Logically, this would involve imparting information that would leave it unguarded at times, and this is likely why Kvothe was able to approach and converse with it.


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Ions I see the Fea realm as kind of an alternate dimension...one where its rules are made up as needed... [Maybe referring to it as a Dreamscape would work better]
I feel that in such a realm things don't work as simply as walking in a world that is day at one end, and night on the other.

in this world there isn't simply "THE PATH" to the Cthaeh, but rather there are "A PATH"
[*intentional fudging of grammar, hopefully I'll able to make my point clear]
the Sithe guard the one path that leads directly to the Cthaeh, and that is the path which all who intentionally SEEK it will take.
but the Cthaeh exists outside of time (as it can see all possible futures), so many paths can lead to it. those who wander aimlessly with heavy questions begin down A path that eventually leads to the Cthaeh. this path isn't a set road or trail, its just that over time any road will eventually lead someone there.



or maybe I like your idea little more because its less complicated! lol

GAWD I need that 3rd book to come out soon...


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Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I enjoyed what both of you had to say on that subject Ions and Bill.

Especially this


Thousands of years later, that original victim is the proverbial butterfly flapping its wings that causes a hurricane.


That REALLY got me thinking.


Also agree completely with this
in this world there isn't simply "THE PATH" to the Cthaeh, but rather there are "A PATH" thats pretty much how I imagine fae as well.


One thing that I don't think thats come up yet is, if the Ctheah is omnipotent and knows all possible futures, how the hell did they catch it and bind it to the tree in the first place?!


Mike  (mcrowd) | 8 comments Unless I missed something, it appears as though there are other powers at work here hunting the Chandrian. In one of the stories doesn't a Chandrian member ask, "who keeps you safe from the Amyr, etc,..." Maybe I'm wrong. The Chandrian run when they feel, sense, or detect that "hunting party", if you will, coming.

I've had the theory that they are a faction of the Amyr. Equal to or superior than the Chandrian, and in a never ceasing chase to catch and destroy the Chandrian.

The Amyr that are talked about a little in the book (common, mortal, whatever word you wish to use. Though I don't like mortal as I do not feel the Chandrian etc., are like gods or something) serve these in a way. Not that they know them but I would compare it to something similar to a secret religion. People who have additional knowledge regarding them. For instance, the knowledge that Kvothe cannot locate because all of the manuscripts are gone etc.

I understand that the Sithe guard the Ctheah, my point was that maybe they have a similar charter and are somehow connected to or know the "superior" Amyr (I understand that these persons, beings, what have you, have not been identified or described, it's just a theory. Ill continue to refer to them as the superior Amyr lol.). Thus working in conjunction or coordinating together they have learned that Kvothe needed to speak to the Cthaeah for the "greater good" to prevail.

This could be all rubbish and I may have missed some things in my reading that clearly negates all of this. If I did I am not aware of it.

Love these conversations!!


message 50: by Mike (last edited Aug 24, 2013 10:44AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mike  (mcrowd) | 8 comments Here's another thing. If the Ctheah can see all futures etc., why would it allow itself to be bound?

If you know it's coming and every potential/possible recourse or action, you know how to stop it.

So the Ctheah, is bound by its own choosing. Hmmm.


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