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message 1: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments I thought it would be fun to post about tropes, and that many here would be able to contribute sprightly commentary and examples.


message 2: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Gay for You: One or both protagonists has previously been entirely heterosexual, but there's this one special guy, and confusion ensues for our protagonist(s). I'm sure this came from slash fiction, where the attraction had to be explained somehow, since onscreen it was just a bromance with perhaps some baiting.


message 3: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Suddenly Magically Gay: Closely related to Gay for You, but a protagonist may perhaps look at more than one guy with a new sort of yearning. I believe this also came from slash fiction.


message 4: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments OK Homo: It may be a historical (or at least a wallpaper historical), it may be a rough area of the city or country, but everyone around the protagonists is just fine with them being gay. The celebration of this is particularly jarring in historicals, but there are modern-day examples, too. Homophobia does not exist in these books.


message 5: by Jax (new)

Jax | 978 comments Great idea Em. I had thought of this as a possible fun discussion at one point, but never got around to starting it. I was inspired when I came across two tropettes that always bug me: that electric shock when they touch thing and the fact that sex with each other is the best, most mind-blowing sex they've ever had, dontcha know.

I suppose they're not really limited to m/m, but as I think we discussed at some point, I never read straight romance so I don't really know the conventions. These may be staples of the romance community for all I know, but they just make me laugh & roll my eyes and take me out of the moment.


message 6: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Jax wrote: "Great idea Em. I had thought of this as a possible fun discussion at one point, but never got around to starting it. I was inspired when I came across two tropettes that always bug me: that electri..."

The tropes you mentioned are in straight romances, too. Although often in straight romances, or at least when I was reading a lot of Harlequins, the heroines were virgins, so they had nothing to compare to. The heroes generally thought that sex with the virgins was the best sex they'd had. That carries over into m/m romances, too, with more experienced protagonists thinking that sex with the virgins is the best sex they've had.


message 7: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Suddenly Magically Skills (I am making up the name of this trope): In which a virgin performs perfectly in every sex act he attempts, including some acts commonly considered to be challenging and take practice.


message 8: by Jax (new)

Jax | 978 comments Emilie wrote: "Suddenly Magically Skills (I am making up the name of this trope): In which a virgin performs perfectly in every sex act he attempts, including some acts commonly considered to be challenging and t..."

Good one!

Would it be out of line to poke fun at specific examples as we go along with this thread? Names should be named! It would just be in fun since many, many writers abuse use these.


message 9: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Jax wrote: "Emilie wrote: "Suddenly Magically Skills (I am making up the name of this trope): In which a virgin performs perfectly in every sex act he attempts, including some acts commonly considered to be ch..."

Oh, I'm sure we can come up with lots of examples. I had a number in mind for each of those tropes, but refrained from naming names. I see no reason why others should feel restraint about naming names, though.


message 10: by PaperMoon (new)

PaperMoon | 664 comments Mod
Oh please do tell .. I'm interested to see examples of what you're talking about. I'm only sorry to say I don't think I have read enough gay-romance novels to participate fully.


message 11: by Jerry (last edited Apr 24, 2013 09:23AM) (new)

Jerry (lugonn) | 10 comments Insta-Dad Needs Wife and MotherBoyfriend/co-Parent: I suspect this one migrated here from straight romances. Usually the romantic hero became an insta-dad after being orphaned and becoming responsible for his younger siblings. Sometimes it is a widower with a child - for bonus points the widower version usually includes Gay For You as well.


message 12: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Jerry wrote: "Insta-Dad Needs Wife and MotherBoyfriend/co-Parent: I suspect this one migrated here from straight romances. Usually the romantic hero became an insta-dad after being orphaned and becoming respons..."

Oh, that's a good one! I've read many of those. I'm glad to have a name for the trope -- and such a creative one. :)


message 13: by Mercedes (last edited Apr 25, 2013 03:26PM) (new)

Mercedes | 373 comments I am not sure if this is a trope but it is something that I have seen in a few books: basically fuck buddies (pardon my french) that become lovers. OK, so what I do not like about this "premise" is that most of the times when the couple starts their arrangement it is all of course only physical *roll eyes*. I find that this is ever only physical at all!

Here's an example: The Closer You Get. I really hope I am not spoiling the book for you. But basically the book starts with the experienced guy (AKA Slut) offering to teach the ropes to the virginal dude. Both fall in love in the process.

Herea couple more very similar examples:
Frat Boy and Toppy
Too Stupid to Live


message 14: by Mercedes (new)

Mercedes | 373 comments Alright, here's another trope I have read: Who Needs Health Insurance when You Have BDSM (AKA BDSM cures it ALL).

Here are a couple of examples:
Dirty Laundry from what I understand in this book BDSM is used to manage OCD tendencies
Pup from what I understand in this book BDSM is used to manage ADHD


message 15: by D. (new)

D. River | 74 comments The Gay Button!

Relating to the GFY and insta-gay tropes, this is where the reluctant, er, receiver of sex has his prostate stimulated and finds it's so good that he never wants any other kind of sex again.

Er, I'm guilty of this myself in my books, but I don't take it to the level many writers do. It's often portrayed as this life-altering moment of pleasure.


message 16: by Jerry (new)

Jerry (lugonn) | 10 comments Chris wrote: "The Gay Button!

Relating to the GFY and insta-gay tropes, this is where the reluctant, er, receiver of sex has his prostate stimulated and finds it's so good that he never wants any other kind of ..."


This one applies even if the character is gay, but it is the character's first time bottoming. If it isn't a button to change the boy gay, at a minimum it is a button to change him to a bottom.

"OMG! It hurts so much, I think I'm going to die! It HUUUURTS!" And then the slightest brush of penis against the prostate and suddenly the pain is turned into pleasure and the once-agonized bottom's eyes suddenly roll back and he's pushing back wanting more, more, more.


message 17: by Jerry (last edited Apr 26, 2013 11:10AM) (new)

Jerry (lugonn) | 10 comments Mercedes wrote: "Alright, here's another trope I have read: Who Needs Health Insurance when You Have BDSM (AKA BDSM cures it ALL).

I have read very little BDSM, and what I've read wasn't that extreme. But I think this may be a variant of the trope I've read in non-BDSM, mostly hurt/comfort, which I call The Healing Power of Sperm. This is a situation in which the character is broken and devastated and what changes everything in a moment is when the as-yet-unrequited relationship with the love interest is finally consummated.

The trope is particularly offensive and unrealistic to me when (and this seems to be the common variant) the medicinal sperm is applied to comfort the character who has just been raped or nearly raped. Cuz nothing gets you past that horrific life-changing experience like getting a loving penis pushed inside of you to replace the memory of the rape penis, right?


message 18: by Jerry (last edited Apr 26, 2013 11:08AM) (new)

Jerry (lugonn) | 10 comments Emilie wrote: "OK Homo: It may be a historical (or at least a wallpaper historical), it may be a rough area of the city or country, but everyone around the protagonists is just fine with them being gay. The cele..."

I was recently reading (didn't finish) Downtime, a story set in Victorian England and while it was acknowledged that it was shameful and offensive to the general public, it seemed like half the people we met were openly gay and knew our protagonist's love interest was gay and assumed the newly introduced character had to be gay as well, and Hey, can I get a chance at that hot ass, too?

Another example is Brethren: Raised by Wolves. Sure, this is set in the 1600s and the characters are (literally) pirates of the Carribean, but that doesn't mean that every pirate shouldn't be in a loving, monogamous, long-term gay relationship.


message 19: by Jerry (new)

Jerry (lugonn) | 10 comments "Chris wrote: "The Gay Button! ..."

This reminds me of a book I saw on Amazon, but which I never read or purchased. It was about a guy who developed mad toppy skillz in prison and he was now able to get an orgasm from anyone he tops. The character was now selling his talent in the form of a revenge service. You could hire him to rape your straight male friend and in addition to the normal trauma of rape they would then be forced to question their sexuality and responsibility for the act because they shot like a fire hose while getting pounded into submission. Sadly I do not recall the title, author, or anything else which might help one to find this.


message 20: by Mercedes (new)

Mercedes | 373 comments Jerry wrote: "This reminds me of a book I saw on Amazon, but which I never read or purchased. It was about a guy who developed mad toppy skillz in prison and he was now able..."

Jerry that book sounds incredibly offensive.


message 21: by Mercedes (new)

Mercedes | 373 comments Jerry wrote: "Emilie wrote: "OK Homo: It may be a historical (or at least a wallpaper historical), it may be a rough area of the city or country, but everyone around the protagonists is just fine with them being..."

The ultimate OK Homo book I have read so far is The Actor and the Earl. Back then they could get beheaded yet the family knew, the friends knew, the help knew and everyone was OK with it.


message 22: by Jax (last edited May 01, 2013 02:47PM) (new)

Jax | 978 comments Here's another tropette (which I think of as a moment rather than a theme): some reference to having been a Boy Scout when lube & condoms are readily produced.

I just came across this again in a really good book by one of my favorite writers and it made me laugh to think what the Scouts would think if they only knew how often they are mentioned in gay books.


message 23: by D. (new)

D. River | 74 comments Gayness Come With the Uniform

Has anyone else noticed that every cop, fireman, paramedic and soldier is gay and just waiting for the right guy to come along to show them the wonders of gay sex?


message 24: by Jerry (new)

Jerry (lugonn) | 10 comments Chris wrote: "Gayness Come With the Uniform

Has anyone else noticed that every cop, fireman, paramedic and soldier is gay and just waiting for the right guy to come along to show them the wonders of gay sex?"


No, that's not right. Only half of them are gay. The other half are straight, yet find themselves inexplicably romantically attracted to their partner. But they're still straight cuz they're only gay for this one cop/soldier/firefighter/etc. :-).

It is interesting how gay for you seems almost required when this trope arises.


message 25: by Thad (new)

Thad J. Chris wrote: "Gayness Come With the Uniform

Has anyone else noticed that every cop, fireman, paramedic and soldier is gay and just waiting for the right guy to come along to show them the wonders of gay sex?"


I have noticed that too Chris and to me it is a little off putting. It just seems a bit off to me because while I'm ok with an experiment it doesn't make sense to me that characters that are well established into their careers and a bit older would be so new to such relationships.


message 26: by Charles (new)

Charles (chuck-e) | 306 comments Ems, I honestly thought I had invented the trope "SMG" (Suddenly Magically Gay.)

I remember one of the first things I posted on the old AE "Books We're Reading" forum concerned Heidi Cullinan and Marie Sexton's Family Man. Because the tag line was: "How does a man get to be forty without knowing whether he’s gay?" I thought I invented the idea that a guy that old (relatively speaking) suddenly magically realized he was gay.

Please! Point me to the slash that posits this idea. I realize it's not anything new, but I would love to know where I must have unconsciously absorbed this. Could it have been something on the Shipping News thread on AE/TBL?

If this sounds defensive, I don't mean it to be. I just really, really thought I had had an original idea! *Heavy sigh!*

Lord, I must be getting so old!


message 27: by Mercedes (last edited May 10, 2013 09:32AM) (new)

Mercedes | 373 comments Chuck wrote: ""How does a man get to be forty without knowing whether he’s gay?""

Speaking of men who get to be 40 without kowing that are gay, I read the book
And Call Me in the Morning last weekend and it had this issue x2. Both 40 year old MCs went SMG and of course they are only gay for each other.

description

My eyes are still stuck to the back of my head!


message 28: by TT (new)

TT | 8 comments Not sure if this counts but what about 'Smartass Twinks' which apparently equals hilarious to big dumb tops? I am mainly thinking of the authors Stephani Hecht, Lynn Hagen and Anitra Lynn McLeod (I cut my teeth on these when i started reading MM). The twinks smirk a lot, pull stupid pranks and are in general a pain in the ass, but these are considered to be endearing qualities to the big guys...why?!?


message 29: by Thad (new)

Thad J. Teetee wrote: "Not sure if this counts but what about 'Smartass Twinks' which apparently equals hilarious to big dumb tops? I am mainly thinking of the authors Stephani Hecht, Lynn Hagen and Anitra Lynn McLeod (I..."

Honestly Teetee I would say it's a guy thing. I don't care what anyone says, all men are little boys who never gave up their tree and clubhouses deep down. You see the relationship where there is the cool leader and smaller/smarter nerd who become close friends all the time because of how different they are. For the examples you gave the big guys are pretty much alpha stereotypes and be it with just male bonding or m/m relationships I think it makes sense that they would find such polar opposite qualities in another male attractive.


message 30: by Andrew (new)

Andrew Peters (andrewjpeters) | 54 comments I think m/m romance tends to imitate m/f romance, in that it's a fantasy. The "alpha male" sweep-me-off-my-feet archetype is very attractive to some straight women and some gay men. I don't find that there's such a difference between partners in real life gay relationships - one being the alpha top and the other the submissive bottom. But then again, we read romance to see the world the way we'd like it to be, not the way it is necessarily.


message 31: by TT (new)

TT | 8 comments Andrew wrote: "I think m/m romance tends to imitate m/f romance, in that it's a fantasy. The "alpha male" sweep-me-off-my-feet archetype is very attractive to some straight women and some gay men. I don't find th..."

You are right Andrew, there are a lot of MM stories where it feels like the author wrote one of the characters as a woman (in some stories, the 'twink' personality feels very feminine) and makes me think they wrote it as a MF book and just switched out parts. There are a lot of 'straight' authors who wrote MF erotica in the past that are spreading their wings in the MM genre, and you can see the transition is tough. Lover At Last by JR Ward comes to mind...


message 32: by Andrew (new)

Andrew Peters (andrewjpeters) | 54 comments Hi Teetee - I wasn't necessarily saying that m/f authors shuffle the genders to get into the m/m market. I can see that my choice of word "imitate" could have been interpreted that way. I meant to comment more broadly - and without judgment - about idealized male leads in romance. Just to say, in many cases I think, the author is inspired by telling a sexy fantasy rather than how relationships tend to happen in real life. :)


message 33: by [deleted user] (new)

Andrew wrote: "Hi Teetee - I wasn't necessarily saying that m/f authors shuffle the genders to get into the m/m market. I can see that my choice of word "imitate" could have been interpreted that way. I meant to ..."

I agree...there are a lot of m/m troupes out there, but i guess when it comes to 'romance' etc a lot of authors are more towards telling a sexy fantasy, which a lot of people are attracted to (even if you aren't). Trying to show something 'real life' or closer to it would take a lot of time (as far as i know) and it might turn up being boring if it's not written properly. I guess that's why we see 'M/M' relationships in which one feels like a woman.


message 34: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Chuck wrote: "Ems, I honestly thought I had invented the trope "SMG" (Suddenly Magically Gay.)

I remember one of the first things I posted on the old AE "Books We're Reading" forum concerned Heidi Cullinan and ..."


You may have invented that name for the trope, but the trope has been around for a long time. It was a thing long before The Shipping News. I can't think of the titles of specific slash fics, but it's common enough in slash fiction.


message 35: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca James (rebeccajamesgayromance) | 1 comments One of my favorites--Pretend boyfriend/husband.
Guy needs another guy to pretend to be his boyfriend/husband for some reason, event, etc. Sexual attraction and love ensue.


message 36: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Jerry wrote: "Mercedes wrote: "Alright, here's another trope I have read: Who Needs Health Insurance when You Have BDSM (AKA BDSM cures it ALL).

I have read very little BDSM, and what I've read wasn't that extr..."


The fan fiction tag for it is "Magical Healing Cock." Just so you know it's so common that there's a tag you can sort on for it.


message 37: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Some m/m romance authors were heavily influenced by yaoi, and use the seme/uke tropes.


message 38: by Emilie (last edited Mar 19, 2016 03:31PM) (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments I was posting about the "Gay for You" trope three years ago, and knocking a couple of stars off one of my very first Amazon reviews for it being in one of the first m/m romances I read, way back when. (I have since corresponded a lot with the author.) Now I see that it's become a debated issue again in the past couple of weeks. Seriously, if someone says they find the trope hurtful, the privileged person should listen.


message 39: by Marshall (new)

Marshall Thornton | 9 comments I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

Whenever there's any kind of debate in this community, though, an interesting thing happens. It, unfortunately, turns into a conflict of identity politics where people say one thing and other people hear something completely different. If a gay or bi man complains about GFY for example, many of the writers only hear a man telling a woman what she can or cannot do. The gay or bi man is shocked by the response, since what he saw was heterosexual oppression and appropriation.

From there add passion, indignation, hurt, internalized homophobia, and outright fraudulent behavior (claiming identities not your own) and you have a big, huge mess every time anyone makes a peep.


message 40: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

Whenever there's any kind of debate in this community, though, an..."


So much for this being a fun thread, but here goes. I am online "friends" with a few of the many women authors who write "Gay for You." I enjoy Keira Andrews' writing. But I don't like that she made a tagline for a book: "Two straight guys. One desert island." I understood why that would hurt Julio and others. But the majority of the reviews for that book were positive. Other authors came to Keira's defense. I thought, those approving readers and defending authors just Don't Get It. I know some of those authors have done a lot more to protest homophobia than I have. (I am not a person who goes out to protest in person very often.) But they're still being homophobic. When the majority -- and women are a majority of the people in the U.S. -- writes about a minority, and some of the people in the minority object to aspects of the writing, it's not a cue for many of the people in the majority to explain that the minority person is wrong, or complain that the people in the minority are spoiling their fun. It's a cue to apologize for hurting the people who were hurt by this. We know that here.

It's not slash fiction anymore. It's a for-profit endeavor. Whether or not the authors feel like they're writing about gay men, or the readers feel like they're reading that, that's how many of us take it. The authors need to have some respect for the people they are writing about, and the issues they face. As Julio said, it's one thing if it's erotica, but this is not that. So many m/m romance authors came from writing slash fiction, but the genre is not owned by women. Some authors and readers get it. Others need to educate themselves about homophobia.


message 41: by Ulysses (new)

Ulysses Dietz | 1522 comments Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

That's a really good precis of what happens. My brief take: when you write about people who are not what you are, you need to listen to people like them.



message 42: by Ulysses (new)

Ulysses Dietz | 1522 comments Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

Bravo, Emilie. You've taught me a lot about this in my own writing.



message 43: by Marshall (new)

Marshall Thornton | 9 comments Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

Whenever there's any kind of debate in this comm..."


Some very good thoughts.

Also, I think it's important that everyone remember the scope of experiences words like homophobia carry. It can mean something rude or it can mean something gruesomely violent. It's an inflammatory word because most people's minds go right to the violent.

Most queer people go through a very long process of clearing internalized homophobia. I don't always see this happening in the ally community. They seem, at least, to feel that they've made a decision that queer is okay and they're finished - and that nothing they do could be homophobic. But it doesn't really work that way.


message 44: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Marshall wrote: "Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

Whenever there's any kind of deba..."


Frankly, I don't especially care if someone's feelings get hurt if I say they're homophobic. In real life I would be more cautious, but online I am more free with certain opinions and judgments. You don't have to be violent to be intolerant. You can even be just a little too self-satisfied about how you're a good ally and say something wrong. (Been there.) But when I'm saying it here, I trust that members of this group will know what I mean.

I've been working on internalized biphobia for a long time, and will continue to work on it for the foreseeable future. I expect that that part of my existence will be erased. Just because I expect something doesn't mean I have to like it.

In the parts of the Glee fandom I hung out in, I would see straight girls feeling like they couldn't be homophobic because they liked Kurt and Blaine. And I saw them getting corrected, and taught to think about it a little more. This feels similar to me, except that the people who should be thinking about it a little more seem to be getting defensive or at least feeling like people are trying to spoil their enjoyment in something that belongs to them. Or choosing to ignore the minority. My take.


message 45: by Marshall (new)

Marshall Thornton | 9 comments Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

Whenever there's..."


...and it's a good take. I haven't gotten too close to this one. I have said a few things (mostly about the way people deal with conflict) and it does make me think.

Who knows maybe this will make a difference.


message 46: by Emilie (last edited Mar 21, 2016 01:01PM) (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments Marshall wrote: "Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "Emilie wrote: "Marshall wrote: "I agree with you. I'd even go further and say that any writer worth their salt needs to consider criticism wherever it comes from.

W..."


I am discouraged. I brought it up with other editors and got a lot of "straight-splaining" about how they personally knew straight men who had fallen in love with other straight men, and look at how gay men treat bisexuals and transgendered people! A lot of "they're more intolerant than we are, and we know better!"

I said I was personally and acutely aware of how some gay men and lesbians, and many, many straight people, treated bisexuals. And that the transgendered and otherwise genderqueer people I talk to say they get it from all sides from cis-gendered people of any sexual orientation.

I said that I shouldn't have given my own opinions originally when I brought it up, but the Powers-That-Be said that she wanted to hear our opinions and that as editors we should be aware of what was a controversy.


message 47: by Emilie (last edited Dec 17, 2016 07:18PM) (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments back to more light-hearted...

mpreg -- paranormal in which a cis-gendered man can get pregnant. Often found following intimate relations in an alpha/beta/omega world.

Perhaps I should explain more. In the wild, an alpha male wolf mates with an alpha female wolf. In fan fiction, an alpha werewolf mates with an omega werewolf. In fic, the omegas are almost always male. Most of the time mpreg follows. I am good with suspending disbelief for anatomical impossibilities, as long as I'm suspending it for werewolves anyway.

A serious realistic version would be a story in which a transgendered man got pregnant. The mpreg world I am describing has nothing to do with reality. It's nice for me to relax and not worry about realism and/or social responsibility. I can worry about realism and social responsibility when I read contemporaries or historicals.

I'm finding that mpreg is popular in some circles of Kindle book readers and authors. It's not the circles that most members of the Gay Book Forum would be in, I'm betting.


message 48: by Ulysses (new)

Ulysses Dietz | 1522 comments LOL. I don't mind mpreg at all, although I guess I think it's a sort of curious trope. I'm remembering it in the context of a magical world with non-human creatures, for whom biology doesn't follow human convention...so it barely made me blink. :)


message 49: by F.E. (new)

F.E. Jr. | 1 comments I used to get so upset over these books. Some of the tropes were - in my mind - taking advantage of gay people, writing falsehoods about us, and THEN making money off of us.
Then I realized - hey, this is fiction - another word, for lie.
This is a lie.
As an author, i am a professional liar.
Should this stuff be promoted as TRUTH - then I feel people have a legitimate bitch.
Until then, people should lighten up. In my most humble opinion, of course.


message 50: by Emilie (new)

Emilie (neyronrose) | 448 comments F.E. wrote: "I used to get so upset over these books. Some of the tropes were - in my mind - taking advantage of gay people, writing falsehoods about us, and THEN making money off of us.
Then I realized - hey,..."


I have mixed feelings. For a few years I worried about (cis)women thinking that m/m romances were more realistic than the majority of them are. I came to realize that some women don't care about reality, even the amount of realism you can get while following the rules of the romance genre. I know which authors I can go to if I don't want realism, and which I can go to if I want something that feels closer to real life to me.

The thing that gets me, as in an earlier discussion Marshall and I had, was how many women authors of m/m will say, "Men can't tell women what to write!" when that wasn't the point. Generally the point is that an author of m/m is being homophobic. Not that I'm wonderful on all the issues, but I'd prefer that someone not profit from homophobia. I think people can learn from their mistakes and do better, if they'll acknowledge they were mistaken. But defending a kind of oppression by referencing a different oppression seems like derailing to me.


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