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Discussions about books > Epic fantasy written by women

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message 1: by Valerie (new)

Valerie Douglas (valeriedouglas) | 7 comments Do you feel that women can't write epic fantasy as well as men?


message 2: by MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma* (new)

MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 7282 comments Valerie wrote: "Do you feel that women can't write epic fantasy as well as men?"

No.


message 3: by Gene (new)

Gene Robin Hobb is an example of a woman writing good epic fantasy.


message 4: by Maggie (new)

Maggie K | 730 comments not at all Valerie-there are really amazinf women fantasy authors out there...


message 5: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments no.

try for example: Assassin's Apprentice

or for another example: A Warrior's Tale

or for example: Griffin's Daughter

or for example: A Cavern of Black Ice

or for example: Intervention

or for example: Arrows of the Queen

or for example: The Curse of the Mistwraith

need I go on?


message 6: by MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma* (new)

MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 7282 comments John, you didn't mention Andre Norton - the first woman to be awarded Grand Master and one of the main reasons women write fantasy today.

:-D

And of course, Marion Zimmer Bradley.

And I love some Pern: Dragonflight


:-D


message 7: by Sophie (new)

Sophie (imhrien) | 433 comments No, there are many examples to the contrary.

Any particular reason they might not?


message 8: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments MrsJoseph wrote: "John, you didn't mention Andre Norton - the first woman to be awarded Grand Master and one of the main reasons women write fantasy today.

:-D

And of course, Marion Zimmer Bradley.

And I love som..."



well, I couldn't mention EVERYONE, I had to leave some to you, of course!


message 9: by MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma* (new)

MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 7282 comments John wrote: "well, I couldn't mention EVERYONE, I had to leave some to you, of course! "

:-D


message 10: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Valerie wrote: "Do you feel that women can't write epic fantasy as well as men?"

ahh.. methinks thou dost protest too much, as further investigation shows you to be a writer of epic fantasy yourself.

clever AND cheeky. Ok, that wins me adding to my "to read" list. ;)


message 11: by MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma* (new)

MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 7282 comments John wrote: "Valerie wrote: "Do you feel that women can't write epic fantasy as well as men?"

ahh.. methinks thou dost protest too much, as further investigation shows you to be a writer of epic fantasy yourse..."




See, that gives me a different reaction.

It put in the "maybe one day, perhaps never" category. Cause the OP has not interacted with the group (only marketing) but started a thread that was [slightly] inflammatory (marketing again?). It was a single sentence. There is no context. There is no background.

Compare that to the authors who come and pal around with us. Usually, if they show themselves to be a real person...I buy their book (even if it takes me forever to get around to reading it...I don't have a TBR list, I have a TBR mountain). It makes a difference, to me.


Snarktastic Sonja (snownsew) | 258 comments ^ what she said.

Of course, John is also an author. May be why his reaction is different.


message 13: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments MrsJoseph wrote: "See, that gives me a different reaction."

hmmm. You make a very compelling argument. I'll have to think on this some more.

I still think its a great thread, intentional or not, that celebrates our great female epic fantasy authors!


message 14: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Snarktastic Sonja wrote: "^ what she said.

Of course, John is also an author. May be why his reaction is different."


LOL. I was typing my response while you were posting yours.
I'm a brandy new type author, who finds marketing a bizarre hobgoblin. I'm not all that good at it, apparently.

;)


Snarktastic Sonja (snownsew) | 258 comments John wrote: "who finds marketing a bizarre hobgoblin. I'm not all that good at it, apparently."

Eh. You are doing fine. I remembered you were an author. Not because you were in any way offensive, but just because I remembered. :)


message 16: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Snarktastic Sonja wrote: "Eh. You are doing fine. I remembered you were an author. Not because you were in any way offensive, ..."

ROTFL... thanks. I think this means I'd be more obviously an author if I was more offensive? I know that can't be right!

anyways, there's also another series that I cannot remember to save my life... lemme search ok, here it is http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26...

I liked that series a lot.


message 17: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments ooh! ooh! and this series: http://www.goodreads.com/series/41722...


message 18: by Mina (new)

Mina Khan (spicebites) | 141 comments I love Sharon Shinn's 12 Houses Sharon Shinn series and also Linda Winstead Jones. Would those be considered epic? What aboutMercedes Lackey?


message 19: by Carly (last edited Mar 21, 2013 11:07AM) (new)

Carly (dawnsio_ar_y_dibyn) | 192 comments Ooh, and Lois McMaster Bujold's The Curse of Chalion. Love that one. *edited for link.

Uh, not trying to be offensive or inflammatory, and I'm not an author so I promise this is not a marketing question, but I'm interested: I do think that in urban fantasy, the subgenre is actually pretty much split by gender into the noir-pastiche style and the more paranormal romance variety, with very few books crossing over. Books that do, like Rob Thurman's, tend to have authors who go a long way to disguise their genders. I don't think this is because of actual differences in ability or whatever, but because the pressures of editor and market expectations force authors to bend to these conventions. I've heard a few female UF authors comment that they sort of had to add in a heavy romance angle to get published (I don't remember who...trying to find the quote.) I don't read all that much epic fantasy, but is there anything similar there? Or do you think I'm off-base with the claim about UF?


message 20: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments that's an interesting angle, Carly.

I'd say YES, there might be a gender difference in certain genres, like erotica or romance, but that doesn't have to mean a difference in quality. I am beginning to think the pressures of the marketplace are stressors.

I recall going to a convention, and having a paranormal romance author, who says she already had some steamy love scenes, be instructed by her agent (or editor, can't remember which) to crank up the actual explicitness of the love scenes to make it more saleable.

Had nothing to do with the gender of the writer, but whether mistakenly or not, to do with the gender of the audience.


message 21: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Red wrote: "I'm currently reading a trilogy by Carol Berg that is utterly brilliant. "

which one? I've checked and seems she has 3 series or more.


message 22: by Carly (last edited Mar 21, 2013 10:32AM) (new)

Carly (dawnsio_ar_y_dibyn) | 192 comments John wrote: "that's an interesting angle, Carly.

I'd say YES, there might be a gender difference in certain genres, like erotica or romance, but that doesn't have to mean a difference in quality. I am beginni..."

Good point. But does the gender of the audience tend to enforce the supposed gender of the writer?
I do remember that JK Rowling was told by her agent to go by "JK", because 11-year-old boys (a large part of the target audience) wouldn't read an obviously female author, but that girls would read an apparently male one.
And Rob Thurman's books impress me because they remind me of the same sort of deceptions practiced in the 1900s: there is no picture of her on the book, and the back cover blurb about her never uses a pronoun to describe her. Instead, it repeatedly uses "the author" etc. I think it's pretty clear her gender is being hidden.
I don't read much romance, but the same may be true there, with men disguising their gender to appeal to female potential readers.
Does the gender of the author strongly affect potential readers? And is this sort of effect visible in epic fantasy conventions?


message 23: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments Carly wrote: "Ooh, and Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion. Love that one.

Uh, not trying to be offensive or inflammatory, and I'm not an author so I promise this is not a marketing question, but I'm intere..."


Can you clarify your question? There's more than one and it meanders. =)

Mercedes Lackey is totally fits in epic fantasy. The Companion World - has so much good stuff!

No one mentioned Melanie Rawn, Judith Tarr, Fiona Patton, or Irene Radford.


Snarktastic Sonja (snownsew) | 258 comments John wrote: "I recall going to a convention, and having a paranormal romance author, who says she already had some steamy love scenes, be instructed by her agent (or editor, can't remember which) to crank up the actual explicitness of the love scenes to make it more saleable."

Sigh. Just Sigh. I *knew* this was happening . . . I just didn't have proof.

Now. If I just had someone witnessing editor/agent telling Jordan or Martin - surely you can make this series longer than 6 books . . . just drag it out!

;)


message 25: by Carly (last edited Mar 21, 2013 10:39AM) (new)

Carly (dawnsio_ar_y_dibyn) | 192 comments Snarktastic Sonja wrote: "John wrote: "I recall going to a convention, and having a paranormal romance author, who says she already had some steamy love scenes, be instructed by her agent (or editor, can't remember which) t..."
Uhhh there is some proof on this one... Charles Stross mentioned in a blog post that he was being pushed to keep on his series work rather than create new standalones or series because the market was "safer" for known series.
Hah. Found it. Edited for link--it's message 8.

In terms of clarifying my question, I'll give it a try: given that you accept that there are some gender differences in urban fantasy, most likely enforced by the marketability, are there analogous differences in epic fantasy, and if so, what are they? Honestly, I'm not sure there are...at least, I can't pick them out if so.


message 26: by Bryan (new)

Bryan | 33 comments I completely agree with Carly here. I refuse to believe that men are any better than women at most things, with possible exceptions being activities that require a lot of upper body strength. And peeing while standing. Certainly, though, market forces have a huge amount of sway in what gets published. I even heard a piece on CBC radio about a male writer trying to break into the romance genre and having to take on a female pen name to get his work published.

Here's a somewhat related question: how exactly would you folks define "epic fantasy"? I have my own ideas, but I've run into several different definitions. Just curious what the people on Goodreads think.


message 27: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments Carly wrote: "John wrote: "that's an interesting angle, Carly.

I'd say YES, there might be a gender difference in certain genres, like erotica or romance, but that doesn't have to mean a difference in quality...."


I tried reading her book. I stopped because the main character rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't feel like I was reading from a guy's perspective. In fact, I had no idea Rob Thurman was a woman until I went to search around to figure out why I couldn't get into the story. I found out the author is female and that made it click for me. I could not get into the story or like it very much because it was trying too hard and came off poorly in my perspective.


message 28: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Bryan wrote: "how exactly would you folks define "epic fantasy"?"

excellent question. I fear my own personal answer might not jibe with the official, but to me, epic fantasy means a series or book that weaves multiple character plotlines together across a vast backdrop, be it a world, a universe or a landscape.


message 29: by carol., Senor Crabbypants (last edited Mar 21, 2013 10:56AM) (new)

carol. | 2616 comments Carly has a brilliant dissection of the Male Urban Fantasy and Female Urban Fantasy. Unfortunately, she hits it on the head and explains why it is so hard for me to find an interesting female lead that isn't all about finding the Lurve (Mate of Her Life) in the midst of "investigating."
Carly, I can't remember which of your reviews explained it the best, if you wanted to link it...?


message 30: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments To clarify my last post: As a reader, if I had known the author was female before going into the story, it would have taken longer for me to get riled up about the book. I kept trying to read the book because it's very popular and a lot of friends have given it a good review. However, it wasn't for me.

Even if the author had turned out to be male, I would have still disliked the book for the same reasons. The overall effect comes off as inexperienced storytelling. I could have taken it as being a snark story with obvious attempt at exaggeration but that's not it either. In my opinion, regardless of sex, the writing was poor in aspects that I couldn't stomach and so I stopped reading it. Pretty sure I'm in the minority in not enjoying or liking that book.


message 31: by Carly (last edited Mar 21, 2013 11:02AM) (new)

Carly (dawnsio_ar_y_dibyn) | 192 comments Soo wrote: "To clarify my last post: As a reader, if I had known the author was female before going into the story, it would have taken longer for me to get riled up about the book. I kept trying to read the b..."

I really need to give those books more of a chance... I could tell the author was female, and that really aggravated me. I also think she tried a bit too hard to get a teenage male voice. For example, I think the maximum number of consecutive profanity-free pages (and this is the serious profanity, stuff I wouldn't say) was 3. (I counted.) That beats out any male UF writer I've read except maybe Kadrey. The writing style was also different--it was more descriptive and less of the noir pastiche than I expected. I was also harsher on the book than I should have been, mainly because I was so very disappointed that I could tell the gender of the author.

Carol wrote: "Carly has a brilliant dissection of the Male Urban Fantasy and Female Urban Fantasy. Unfortunately, she hits it on the head and explains why it is so hard for me to find an interesting female lead ..."

As a reader, I'm allergic to romance, I hate the interplay of seduction and submission, and alpha males infuriate me, so for safety's sake, I tend to read male authors...and yes, I'm disappointed both in myself and in the market for this tendency. I did write up the differences here, but it's somewhere between mildly and quite inflammatory, as even doing this differentiation is a pretty sexist break on my part, so apologies beforehand.

But from looking at the examples people gave above, I don't think there is a similar enforced distinction in epic fantasy....interesting.


message 32: by John (last edited Mar 21, 2013 11:11AM) (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Something I wrote on my facebook a while back, that is only partly germane, is how female writers often mistakenly portray male interaction.

----------

THE DYNAMIC: I get having more than one guy interested in the heroine. I even get that they might fall under stereotypical lines (bad boy, tortured artistic guy, etc.) What I don't get, and am confused about, is how often the competition between suitors is described.
It seems to be either a catty passive aggressive insult fight or a not so passive aggressive knuckle fight.

But I have yet to see this competition played out as a NEGOTIATION, which in my humble experience, is how it usually happens in real life. Two real guys, on finding out they both like the same girl, will often do a comparison (I saw her first! She's more my type!) where each guy lays out his basic argument for why he should end up with her. Then, there may indeed be a fight, but more often, its a gentlemen's negotiation. A perfect movie example from "Young Frankensteing" is when Igor says "Ok, you take the blonde, and I'll take the one in the turban".
Admittedly, I'm old, and I'm male, and I realize a negotiation is not as dramatic. But I'm also thinking that women never get to see this backroom negotiation that goes on. Often, from her point of view, there are two suitors, then suddenly there's one and the other one leaves, and she never knows what happened.

I want to ask whether women authors KNOW this but ignore it because it's less dramatic, or do they not even realize this is what happens?

Similarly, in movies or romance books, there are two guys who like the same girl and WAIT PATIENTLY for her to decide between them, even if her decision means sleeping with both. A "test run" so to speak.

In real life, there would come a point where at least one, if not BOTH men would say to themselves "screw this" and move on to greener pastures

--------

Now this was said while acknowledging male writers make similar mistaken assumptions. Robert Jordan, for example, really doesn't get women and their interactions, IMHO, even though he got credit for "empowering women" which was not accurate.

How am I qualified? I'm not really, except that I had four older sisters and no brothers.

ok, I'm sure this post will get somebody mad at me. ;)

sorry, the above was referring to romance and so-called "chick-lit" books, not epic fantasy


message 33: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments sorry, my above post was referring to romance and so-called "chick-lit" books, not epic fantasy


message 34: by Carly (last edited Mar 21, 2013 11:14AM) (new)

Carly (dawnsio_ar_y_dibyn) | 192 comments John wrote: "Something I wrote on my facebook a while back, that is only partly germane, is how female writers often mistakenly portray male interaction.

----------

THE DYNAMIC: I get having more than one guy...

"

I love your description....

I don't think it's a lack of knowledge (although since I spend all my time in an all-but-me male office and lab I'm probably biased); I think it's a romantic ideation coming from the whole parfait gentil knight jousting for his lady's love.
The same is true on the other side...how many women, in real life, act as helpless damsels in distress and fall madly in love with their noble and heroic rescuers?

ok, I'm sure this post will get somebody mad at me. ;)

Hopefully it will distract from mine....


message 35: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments To the question of gender bias: I'm aware that there is a gender bias with the (odd) assumption that female or male gender will be better at writing in certain genres. That editors & publishers have made strong suggestions to authors on pen names & etc due to those bias.

That's not what I think about when I pick up a book to read. I don't even think about whether or not the author is female or male. I pick up the story because something attracted my interest.

My standards state that the writer should portray characters well regardless of gender, create fight scenes written in a fashion that I can imagine and the author's intent for the reader is clear.

In my experience, PNR has a lot of female authors and that makes it seem like only females write PNR. I've read a few that are written by men that I enjoyed but I can't think of them right off hand. With the roaring wave of erotica that is hitting the shelves, I'm not surprised that writers are urged to add a "steamy" scene or romance but I wish they didn't do it if it takes away from the story. I would rather read a well written story without sex or convoluted romance than to read a good story that has cheesy bits of either.


message 36: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Carly wrote: "I think it's a romantic ideation coming from the whole parfait gentil knight jousting for his lady's love.
The same is true on the other side...how many women, in real life, act as helpless damsels in distress and fall madly in love with their noble and heroic rescuers?"


and that makes sense. I think its also that women would really not feel comfortable knowing that in those situations, they are haggled over rather than fought over. Yes, men will fight over women, but no, not usually. Usually its a pragmatic assessment of their odds.


message 37: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments John wrote: "Something I wrote on my facebook a while back, that is only partly germane, is how female writers often mistakenly portray male interaction.

----------

THE DYNAMIC: I get having more than one guy..."


This made me laugh and it's a nice point. I would like to point out, in most romance triangle+ situations in romances, the interested parties each believe they are "the one" and that he/she/it should get the "target".

For example, my friend dated two guys that are close friends for a month. The three of them had lunch everyday. Neither guy realized she was dating them both until one of the guys saw the other guy kissing her. Lack of communication. =D


message 38: by Carly (new)

Carly (dawnsio_ar_y_dibyn) | 192 comments Soo wrote: "To the question of gender bias: I'm aware that there is a gender bias with the (odd) assumption that female or male gender will be better at writing in certain genres. That editors & publishers hav...
My standards state that the writer should portray characters well regardless of gender, create fight scenes written in a fashion that I can imagine and the author's intent for the reader is clear."


Definitely the best attitude towards it!


message 39: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Soo wrote: "I would rather read a well written story without sex or convoluted romance than to read a good story that has cheesy bits of either. "
In my stories, I intentionally avoid lurid descriptions of sex, except referentially. Its not that I'm a prude, per se, its that I want to tell a story, and IMHO sex scenes that are nothing but that are interruptions to the story.

Taking this back to the original topic, even in fantasy that I applaud, for example Lorna Suzuki's A warrior's tale, I came upon a somewhat explicit sex scene (thankfully only one that I recall) and even though I accept it was well written, it felt like an interruption and I skimmed over it till it was done.

But see, I'm old. But also, I love story. Tell me story. I can get smut on my own.


message 40: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments Carly wrote: don't think it's a lack of knowledge (although since I spend all my time in an all-but-me male office and lab I'm probably biased); I think it's a romantic ideation coming from the whole parfait gentil knight jousting for his lady's love.
The same is true on the other side...how many women, in real life, act as helpless damsels in distress and fall madly in love with their noble and heroic rescuers?


Heheheheh! I admit, I used to have more guy friends than girls but that has changed over the years. However, I know LOTS of females and males that fall for "the person that rescues" them. It happens all the time and I'm always asking my friends, "Are you sure you like them for who they are and not what they did for you?"

Lasting Attraction vs Event Related Attraction


message 41: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Soo wrote: "For example, my friend dated two guys that are close friends for a month. The three of them had lunch everyday. Neither guy realized she was dating them both until one of the guys saw the other guy kissing her. Lack of communication. =D "

and I can bet once that happened, both men were angry and turned off. One might have stayed, but neither felt it was a competition they signed on for. In romance novels/movies, both guys KNOW they are competing, but act like its not a big deal.
My point is, in real life, for guys ITS A BIG DEAL. in fact, its a deal breaker.

This is a case where fantasy is toxic to reality. If women acted like what they read were viable strategies, she'd always be alone.


message 42: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments John wrote: "Soo wrote: "I would rather read a well written story without sex or convoluted romance than to read a good story that has cheesy bits of either. "
In my stories, I intentionally avoid lurid descrip..."


But, John, a love scene/etc can also be a part of a story. It just depends on the writer. Besides, the skimming ability is prime for not reading in detail the bits you don't wanna absorb! =D


message 43: by MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma* (new)

MrsJoseph *grouchy* (mrsjoseph) | 7282 comments This is a wonderful conversation!

John, your description of male negotiation is what I have noticed in my life. I've even heard of guys calling a woman's ex (if they were friendly) to get permission to date the woman. O_o No fights, there.


message 44: by Soo (last edited Mar 21, 2013 11:37AM) (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments John wrote: "Soo wrote: "For example, my friend dated two guys that are close friends for a month. The three of them had lunch everyday. Neither guy realized she was dating them both until one of the guys saw t..."

In that particular situation, she did date the guy she was kissing for almost a year after they were "caught" kissing.

This is only an example and I have friends who will do things I won't but that's life. It's not like this friend would do that particular scenario now but she definitely did until she got out of college.

John: This is a case where fantasy is toxic to reality. If women acted like what they read were viable strategies, she'd always be alone.

It's Fantasy. There are lots of events, emotions, situations, etc that are written in fiction that I would never want in real life. I'm pretty sure the audience that enjoys the scenes realize it's fictional fantasy. Now if they want to fantasize it happening in real life? That's what imagination is for.


Snarktastic Sonja (snownsew) | 258 comments John wrote: "Similarly, in movies or romance books, there are two guys who like the same girl and WAIT PATIENTLY for her to decide between them, even if her decision means sleeping with both. A "test run" so to speak. "

This thread has been seriously hijacked. But, I think it is a good thing. :) Interesting discussion.

John - *I* think this is because it is what *men* think *women* want to read. And, maybe they do. Look at the popularity of Twilight - and there is a reason beyond sparkly vampires. Not 100% sure what that reason is. Maybe women also think women want to read it. I dunno.

All I know is triangles are *much* more romantic in fiction than they are in reality.

I read somewhere . . . do not remember where . . . that erotica is porn for women. I thought that was a very appropriate definition. It irritates me that it is invading my fantasy.


message 46: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments Back to authors and genders: I didn't know that Andre Norton or Lois McMaster Bujold were women until my late teens or early 20's. It's the stories that captured my imagination and that's why they became my favorite authors.

I know. I'm a rebel. I want good stories written by talented authors and I don't care if they're pea green and from outer space.


Snarktastic Sonja (snownsew) | 258 comments John wrote: "Its not that I'm a prude, per se, its that I want to tell a story, and IMHO sex scenes that are nothing but that are interruptions to the story.

But see, I'm old. But also, I love story. Tell me story. I can get smut on my own.."


I totally agree. :) I'm also old. And a prude. And, I hate having to skim over the naughty parts. I am quite fond of closing the door and letting the imagination work.

When almost every movie and television show is too embarrassing to watch across generations, we know we have a situation. Now, it is happening in books as well . . .


message 48: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments MrsJoseph wrote: "This is a wonderful conversation!

John, your description of male negotiation is what I have noticed in my life. I've even heard of guys calling a woman's ex (if they were friendly) to get permiss..."


YES EXACTLY. This always happens in my experience. I mean always. If the guys know each other, they always have a conversation at least to make sure its ok to date the first guy's "ex". Now, that's what happens, is it right? hell to the no, cause it assumes property rights, in a bizarre way. And it doesn't take the woman's desires into account.

But it is exactly what happens.
And I don't recall ever reading that in any book.


message 49: by John (new)

John Hancock (johngregoryhancock) | 91 comments Soo wrote: "In that particular situation, she did date the guy she was kissing for almost a year after they were "caught" kissing."

ok, that was the guy who won, then. The other guy, was he okay with being in a competition he had no idea he was in? I'm guessing no. I'm even guessing it a bad scene.


message 50: by Soo (new)

Soo (silverlyn) | 60 comments That does happen in some books. You have to read more romance novels to find out. =)

However, if you don't want to read romance novels or PNR to find out, take my word for it: it really does happen.

;)


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