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message 1: by thistlepong, Master Namer (last edited Mar 20, 2013 09:59AM) (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
short version: Roderic Calanthis
odds = 1:1

I kept meaning to post this and then I was mired in loan applications and packing and moving and whatnot. So at this point it's rather old and a third generation copy. But I noticed the comment below and thought I'd throw it down in an effort to decompress a little.

In the lackless family theories thread Graham wrote: "While I think it's clear PR is setting up a struggle for the throne of Vint, I'm placing my bets on the killed King being Vashet's poet-king in the small kingdoms, not far from where Newarre appears to be. Kvothe is called Kingkiller, sure, but the locals also call Kvothe's sword "poetkiller." Given that there's a poet-king in the area, it seems likely the dead poet and dead king are the same person, killed by the same hand and same sword.

It's a popular theory that comes up from time to time. There are a few poets and a number of (unnamed) kings; but only one poet king (also unnamed.) Some of the arguments against hinge on the fact that "Folly" is explicitly not "Kaysera" and that Kvothe's M.O. easily encompasses killing more than one person.

None of that dickering is necessary though. The alchemical structure of the story practically demands that any king killed in the third book be dressed in red and gold. I threw that out on a lark over at Tor and received immediate replies essentially affirming that assumption. What follows is a rather choppy conclusion that nonetheless covers all the relevant information:

What's terribly interesting to me is that this tends to work on a literal level without resorting to to the alchemical symbolism. And yet, the assumptions I made based on my understanding of that symbolism and the structural necessities that should arise from it align surprisingly well. I couldn’t be more certain, now.

A fair number of folks think Roderic Calanthis is the king, killed. And between WallaceForman and stevenhalter I think that line of inquiry just ossified. Here are the relevant passages that link the flits and the royal family and literally predict their colors.

“Tiny, bright things, yellow and red,” I held up my fingers about two inches apart. “They’re thick in your gardens. They drink the nectar from your selas flowers.”
“Oh. We call them flits.”
“But it’s a little rough on the poor little calanthis.”
“Beg pardon?” I asked.
“Our Stapes is old-fashioned,” Alveron explained with a smile. “And more educated than he cares to admit. Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for them.”
“I could swear I’ve heard that word somewhere else.”
“It’s also the surname of the royal line of Vintas,” Alveron said chidingly.

Having them thus connected, it’s incredibly interesting to note the opening action of the Cthaeh.

But my eye was caught by a single large red one, crimson shot through with a faint tracery of metallic gold. Its wings were bigger than my spread hand, and as I watched it fluttered deeper into the foliage in search of a fresh flower to light upon.
Suddenly, its wings were no longer moving in concert. They tumbled apart and fluttered separately to the ground like falling autumn leaves.

I can’t really see it as a coincidence. Kvothe’s already killed calanthis, colored red and yellow. Now we have the Cthaeh opening with a precisely color-coded killing. “The red ones offend my aesthetic.”

As the conversation progresses the Cthaeh encourages Kvothe to range further afield, to travel to the edge of the map for information. Part of his decision to go to Ademre is based on this. And there, ultimately, he receives the sword. He becomes the clever, thoughtless armed sixteen year old Abenthy discussed with him.

I think the Cthaeh set Kvothe on a collision course with Roderic. I think one of its machinations is Roderic’s death. I think Saicere is in Kvothe’s hands for killing, specifically for breaking the Calanthis line.

But, y’know, don’t take my word for it. As always, look to the text. The background we need is all there.

Ever the good friend, Wilem stepped in with a distracting question. “What is that pause you keep doing?” he asked. “It’s like you can’t catch your breath.”
“I asked that too,” Fela said, smiling.
“It’s something they use in Eld Vintic verse,” Sim explained. “It’s a break in the line called a caesura."

Note that it’s Eld Vintic verse. Note that Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for flits. Note that the royal line, Alveron’s word chosen rather than family, bears an Eld Vintic name. Caesura is meant to break an Eld Vintic line.*

Vashet took the scabbard from the wall and sheathed the sword. Then she turned and held it out to me. “This is named Saicere.”
“Caesura?” I asked, startled by the name. Wasn’t that what Sim had called the break in the line of Eld Vintic verse? Was I being given a poet’s sword?
“Saicere,” she said softly, as if it were the name of God. She stepped back, and I felt the weight of it settle back into my hands.
Sensing something was expected of me, I drew it from its sheath. The faint ring of leather and metal seemed a whisper of its name: Saicere. It felt light in my hand. The blade was flawless. I slid it back into its sheath and the sound was different. It sounded like the breaking of a line. It said: Caesura.

The symbolic killing is set to become a violent reality.

How can I say this so you can understand? Saicere was a fine name. It was thin and bright and dangerous. It fit the sword like a glove fits a hand.
But it wasn’t the perfect name. This sword’s name was Caesura. This sword was the jarring break in a line of perfect verse. It was the broken breath. It was smooth and swift and sharp and deadly. The name didn’t fit like a glove. It fit like skin. More than that. It was bone and muscle and movement. Those things are the hand. And Caesura was the sword. It was the both the name and the thing itself.

Saicere is meant for killing. For cutting down in the prime of life. Kvothe puts it to use almost immediately on the road to Levinshir. But it has a greater destiny ahead.

“I could not help but notice that you are armed,” he remarked, disapproval heavy on his voice.
My hand went unconsciously to Caesura. It was at my hip now, rather than over my shoulder. “Is there aught amiss with that, your grace? I have understood that all men keep the right to gird themselves in Vintas.”
“It is hardly proper.” He stressed the word.
“I understand that in the king’s court in Renere, there’s not a gentleman would dare be seen without a sword.”
“Well-spoken as you are, you are no gentleman,” Alveron pointed out coolly, “as you would do well to remember.”
I said nothing.
“Besides, it is a barbarian custom, and one that will bring the king to grief in time."

The last line, of course, has been the pivot on which the speculation that Roderic is the eponymous king turned. It's quite glaring what with the barbarous Kvothe and the disastrous foreshadowing. However, up to this point we haven’t been able to put together a solid literary case for it. There are a lot of kings, potential kings, and schemers. Now, we have a pretty much bulletproof connection between Saicere and Roderic Calathis.

*That break isn't exactly visually obvious in the Kindle version or the hardcover. However, a poster at Westeros (link) succintly compared it to Old Norse Eddaic poetry and Tolkien's The Legend of Sigurd & Gudrún a few weeks after WMF was published. Pat's "The Lay of the Eastern King," which appears in Clash of the Geeks, is printed with wide spaces in the middle of the lines to emphasize that pause.

Edit 1 - 20130320 1155: added links, cleaned intro

message 2: by Bill (last edited Mar 20, 2013 07:57AM) (new)

Bill Well, the more research I do, the more I realize how many layers there are to PR's writing. At first, it seemed pretty obvious that the Poet-King was going to be Ambrose Jakis. (Except, it wasn't strictly speaking, obvious.) There are only a couple of references to Jakis moving up in the succession, and maybe another couple references to his horrible poetry.

Another author might think, "Ok, I've put down 3-4 pretty vague hints, astute readers will figure out it's Jakis before book 3, less observant readers will look back and see the hints are clearly there. Gosh I'm clever."

I once thought that way as well, but now it really does seem to be too obvious and I believe the Jakis succession theory to be just a red herring. Up to now, however, I was at a loss because it would be unfair and unsatisfying for Kvothe to kill a king who's been completely off-screen, so to speak. It would be like reading a mystery, and trying to figure out which character was guilty, only to find out the guilty party was only introduced on the second to last page of the book. As a reader, that's unfair. Except, as you've illustrated above, there are clues. Which puts Calanthis back on the table as target #1 (in a way that is completely fair to the reader.)

message 3: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
You know, I think this makes the most sense.

I've felt the same as Bill in regards to PR just putting a random King out there last minute - but Calanthis isn't really a last minute name drop or anything. He just isnt directly present in the story yet. We've definitely built some expectations of his character though.

Great post Thistlepong. I love how its well supported by text!

Also @Bill - I never really thought the King would be Ambrose, mostly because I can't imagine Ambrose killing his own father and it would just seem lame if his father went through all the trouble to become king and just died. I HAVE thought however, that maybe Kvothe killed the king of Vintas and that led to the sucession of the Jakis Family. Possibly over the Maer thus creating the civil unrest we hear about in the frame.

Of course that is total speculation. It would just be a nice twist I think if Kvothe's action led directly to the thing he'd want least.

message 4: by Manda (last edited Mar 20, 2013 10:18AM) (new)

Manda | 115 comments "It's a break in the line called a caesura."


Thanks for posting this. I feel like you just showed me how to magic eye! I remember all those tiny details but I never saw the way they were woven together into a larger pattern.

I've read a lot of good theories on here but many seem like they are reaching in some way. This one feels spot-on, like something PR would do.

Well done, sir.

message 5: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
(I edited the OP a little and may do so again, time permitting)

Iirc, I sort of assumed Ambrose based on the two succession comments and his bad poetry. I even buttressed it with this:

Lamplight glittered on the gold brocade of [Ambrose's] jacket, and his gloves were dyed the same dark, royal purple as his boots. The color should have looked garish on him, but it didn’t.

Then I tried to imagine how he could go from fifteenth to first. It was a bloodbath or a marriage coup. Both felt awkward.

After that I focused a disturbing amount of attention on Simmon. What? He's actually a poet versus a dick who tries to write poetry. I never got around to doing the scansion for his off-the-cuff Eddaic verse and, um, learning how to write same to determine its accuracy. But the implication is clear. He's gifted. It's the kind of thing you fall in love for. He's also close to the Aturan throne in a way similar to but different from Ambrose's approach in Vintas. His father's a Duke, which conceivably puts him high in the peerage. The only thing standing in the way is his family. If only an alchemist could make it look like an accident... Like I said, a disturbing amount of time.

But Roderic is just standing there. Alveron's threat was almost explicit. His motive was clear. Even the means was apparent. It just never caught until I started looking at story structures. As you can see, it's apparent from the perspective of a literary critic. It's also really likely according to a couple strange archaic structural traditions. Hopefully I can flesh those out fairly soon.

message 6: by Amber, Master Sympathist (last edited Mar 20, 2013 10:29AM) (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I really like this Thistlepong.

Its a strong theory. I always hoped it wouldnt be Sim, but felt (until now) that possiblity was most likely. With his closeness to the Aturan throne, his general kindness. Plus - if he were king, it'd be simple for Kvothe to be close to him and also most likely easy to frame Kvothe for killing him if indeed that is the case.

But this Calanthis theory has my wheels turning now. No succsession necessary is a nice way of going about things. Plus he is already considered a fine and possibly beloved King to Vints.

message 7: by Becky  (new)

 Becky  (nvrayn) | 25 comments This is awesome! I like this theory.

message 8: by Mitrian (new)

Mitrian | 3 comments Hi there! I've been lurking for a while. I've searched through the archives all day to see if this was mentioned, and can't find it anywhere. It relates to what you wrote about Kvothe's sword and its name...

I only noticed this while listening to the audiobook. This is not something I could pick up from the book at all.

Kvothe does not actually name his sword Caesura. He thinks he does, but he mispronounces it. When Kvothe refers to his sword, he calls it "Susurra" and not Caesura. They sound kind of similar, but are not the same word.

Is this another example of Kvothe naming something with a name other than what he intended? (The horse would be the best other example I can think of right now.) Or am I overthinking this?

message 9: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
He calls it 'Caesure' as in the break in a poetry line. He thinks this fits better and doesn't the sword end up being called the poet killer? That could just be one of Kvothe's side-rumours like the demon-amber-ring.

message 10: by Mitrian (new)

Mitrian | 3 comments Chris wrote: "He calls it 'Caesure' as in the break in a poetry line. He thinks this fits better and doesn't the sword end up being called the poet killer? That could just be one of Kvothe's side-rumours like th..."

But that's exactly my point. The sword's name - in the audiobook - is not pronounced as 'Caesura'. So while Kvothe intends to call it Caesura, and thinks he's calling it Caesura, he's actually not.

So that leads me to 2 possibilities. The first is that this is an error on the part of the narrator - which I doubt, from what I've read about how he worked with PR on correct pronunciations of names in the books. The second is that this is something very subtle that seems minor now but could have a large impact in the 3rd book.

message 11: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 117 comments Thanks for this theory Thistlepong! I have wanted to reread the two books for a while but this just might be the straw that breaks my camel's back. Great theory!

To those who listen to audio,

I have recently started doing this with Tolkien's Lord of the Ring trilogy. I am thinking this method will be easiest for me to begin rereading KKC. What is the name of the narrator, which PR worked closely on with his narration?

Thanks, ahead of time, for help guys!

message 12: by Becky  (new)

 Becky  (nvrayn) | 25 comments I'm on my second listen of these books in a month. I started over as soon as I finished the first listen. Nick Podehl, is an incredible narrator, he worked with PR for quite awhile before starting the narration process.

It is amazing what you pick up on the second time through, especially if you have spent some time on the boards with these amazing minds. The depth of the discussions never cease to amaze me. I totally recommend picking up the audio version. If you do, please let me know what you think of them.

message 13: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
The audios are excellent for these books.

@Mitrian, I wouldn't say its a mistake, maybe that is how Nick had to say it. But I also wouldn't think it's something to do with naming, I only think this because you would have to listen to the audio version to pick it up and that would be a weird expectation to have of your readers. If it's not something you can pick up from just straight reading the book, I would say it's probably not something that was intended. For instance, he doesnt mispronounce Keth-Selhan, the horses name, he literally chooses the wrong words. This is the same with Auri. It's not a mispronounciation, only that he doesn't seem to have a full grasp of the languages used and chooses words with different meanings.

message 14: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
There are a couple important considerations there. The first is that, as a written work in its primary incarnation, the text of The Kingkiller Chronicle holds precedence over everything else. The second is that Nick pronounces "caesura" the same every time whether in regard to Sim's poesy or Kvothe's sword. In every case the text clearly refers to the Eddaic (or Epic) pause, or break, in a line.

Even if Nick softens zhur to shur based on a dialectical quirk, it's pretty clear there's no transformation from caesura to susurra (which, funnily enough, would be a din of whispering if it were a word.)

message 15: by Bill (new)

Bill So, in my re-read, I'm making a mental note of interesting little tidbits. The day after Shep is killed, when everyone comes into the Inn and has a drink, Kvothe pours them tumblers of whiskey. When asked what they should drink to, someone mentions the king, and Kvothe seems to be offended and says something to the effect that he'd never drink to the king.

So, it appears he doesn't care much for the current king. It would be the irony of ironies if Kvothe, by killing the previous king, opened the way for Ambrose Jakis to ascend to the throne.

Points for:

1. I like the theory that Kvothe kills Calanthis.

2. It would mean all the Jakis succession talk isn't simply a red herring.

3. Delicious, delicious irony.

Points against:

I'm not really sure. Perhaps the main one is that Ambrose's father should be ahead of him in the succession.

message 16: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Bill - I have been secretly harboring hope this was the case as well!

For exactly these reasons.

It would just be so amusingly ironic if Kvothe made it possible for Ambrose to be the king.

Though I agree about Ambrose' father. Unless someone else killed his father during sucession. It'd be too lame if he just died from old age or an ailment.

I mean, I'm not saying this isnt jumping to conclusions but hell, it'd be entertaining.

Kvothe might not toast Alveron if he managed to grab up the rest of Vintas after the death of Calanthis. Which wouldn't be a ridiculous leap in the realm of possibilities, he's practically a King already.

message 17: by Mitrian (new)

Mitrian | 3 comments thistlepong wrote: "There are a couple important considerations there. The first is that, as a written work in its primary incarnation, the text of The Kingkiller Chronicle holds precedence over everything else. The..."

I had not realized the word had been pronounced exactly the same the first time Sim says it. I couldn't go back and check, as I'd returned part 1 of the audiobook to the library by the time I started part 2. Sorry about that.

Though 'susurra' doesn't necessarily have to be a noun. I heard it as a verb in the imperative - as "Whisper!" (The singular 'you' is implied.) That had such interesting possibilities, too...

message 18: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments There's a fair bit of evidence that the Maer is the Penitant King. The penitant part to start, the soldiers wearing his colours.

It would be far more ironic if K, perhaps inadvertedly, secured the throne for Alveron who then went on to rekindle the idealogical war against magic users. Made safe by K's gram no less. If the Succesion is a violent one (which it is certainly shaping up to be what with all the murder, manipulation, and armament in charas like Dagon)it could be possible that the Jakis are actually part of the rebellion.

You knowm K actually being the one who is a pompous jackass. Thinking he knows the shape of the world, and noblemen, but really clueless. Giving the future to those who would destroy the place that is near to home/security since the troupe. Having his enemy work to fix his mistakes.

Some thoughts ;)

message 19: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
oh jee, I hadn't even noticed the colors. Very perceptive!

message 20: by Xandra (new)

Xandra Black | 26 comments Are we completely sure the sword behind the bar isn't saicere/caesura? When the Chronicler asks him about the sword, he mentions the hand guard as being different. But, in reading certain descriptions of Adem swords, they can be dismantled. The blade itself seems to be in keeping with his sword. This could also tie in with the "something is wrong with Kvothe's hands theory". Also, does anyone know what the Ciridae's armor looks like? In terms of color theory, that is? There seems to me to be 2 factions of the Amyr. From Skarpi's story describing Selitos & his gang in contrast with thousands of the Amyr/Ciridae supposedly disbanded by the Church. I have so many theories, but I'll keep it at that for now. Best, xx

message 21: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Everyone is fairly positive the sword behind the bar is not his Adem sword.

That would have had to be returned when he faked his death and also, the descriptions are not all that similar.

I'm pretty sure the Amyr and Ciridae both wear red. I know for certain Ciradae are visibly maked by extensive tattoos.
Selitos and the Ruach that joined him are different in the fact that they were not humans and they were more focused and justice for Myr Tarinial and the cities destroyed at the hand of The Chandrian. Their followers still practiced the same philosphies, they just applied justice throughout the 4 Corners until there methods were shown to be a tad extreme and they were disbanded.

An interesting side note, when Kvothe is in Ademre, and she is trying to teach him about the Lethani and what Adem mercenaries stand for, he asks her if they are like the Amyr, which she holds up her red banded arm and confirms. I missed it my first couple reads through, but when I finally caught it, I found it interesting.

message 22: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments Amyr. Not red, per se.

"He wore armour and an open faced helmet. On his chest was a brightinsignia that looked like an autumn leaf, red on the outside brightening to orange near the middle, with a straight black stem.
The skin of his face was tan, but the hand he held poised upright was abright red. His other hand wa hiddenby a large round object Nina had somehow managed to colour bronze. I guessed it was his sheild."

"I got the copper pretty okay here" in ref to the 'sheild'.

"It wasnt a leaf on his chest. It was a tower wrapped in flame."

"He was armoured in a suit of bright steel rings, and his sword was as tall as a man. His tabbard was of shining white, but from the elbows the colour darkened to a crimson, as if dipped in blood. In the centre of his chest, he wore the symbol of the Amyr: the black tower wrapped in crimson flame."

"...thought the amyr had cut himself, and that blood was runing between his fingers and down his arms. Then the fire shifted and the beggar saw that it was only a tattoo"

Amber, where is the Adem quote you are refin, please?

message 23: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I'll have to pull it Ashley. Try to do that for you at my lunch. (I'm working at the moment)

It's during one of the times that Kvothe is training with Vashet. But thats pretty vague. It was an interesting quote though. It seems like language barrier almost, but then I remember Vashet is pretty fluent in Aturan actually. It could go either way.

message 24: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments No worries found it. I struggled becuase I had interpreted it differently :)

Trying to establish a similarity/difference between 'mercenary' in K's culture to adem. Common/prestige, poke em with a sword/honour.

V:"If you fight for the good of others?"
"An Amyr" I aid without thinking.
She cocked her head at me. "An interesting choice." she said.
Vashet held up her arm, displaying the red sleeve proudly. "We Adem are paid to guard, to hunt, to protect. We fight for our land and our school and our reutations. And we fight for the Lethani. With the Lethani. In the Lethani. All of these things together. The Adem word for one who takes the red is Cethan." She looked up at me. "And it is a very proud thing."

I can see where your coming from. I read it as the Amyr are similar in that they also guard, protect ect for they're version of land/people. But the Adem have the Lethani to guide them, the amyr do not. And so the adem have somthing they should be proud of whereas such pride should be viewed with caution in an amyr. Or that they do not have the right way, and have false pride.

message 25: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
OH good, glad you found it!

I think your idea fits more in context. It is interesting to me though, that Vashet doesn't necessarily deny or confirm any relation to the Amyr.

On another note and topic LOL, I've thought that line in the Lackless poem, "On a road that's not for Travelling" may be referring to the Lethani, and possibly Kvothe is fulfilling a destiny of some sort if indeed Laurian is Natalia.

I've noticed there are no actual prophecies in KKC, which is good, but maybe these so called children rhymes are a bit more suggestive than implied.

message 26: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Ooh, awesome idea about the Lethani being the road not for travelling. That's just blown my mind, thistlepong style. That makes perfect sense to me actually and pretty much sums up how I think of the Lethani.

The adem seem to know a lot of lore. Are they just a really old culture and keep lore closely. Seems like they're pretty protective over it. I mean, the teacher-lady told K the rhyme but it's not like it would have been current news when she was young. The chandrian have been around for an age.

message 27: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I got the impression that since they never have to deal with people wanting to take there land and have wars with them that it's easier for them to keep there histories safe.

Also that they practice the tradition of handing it down and memorizing it. Sorta like Kvothe has to do for his sword.

Seems like they take that stuff pretty seriously actually now that I'm thinking about it!

message 28: by Brandon (new)

Brandon Nolan | 18 comments Anyone else notice how Kvothe seems taken aback when the Smith's Apprentice calls his sword the Poet-Killer?

Why does this surprise him? Thoughts?

message 29: by [deleted user] (new)

You've convinced me, thistlepong! I love this theory so much. It's *very* subtle and elegant, but with good evidence if you're looking for it. It's so...Rothfussian!

message 30: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Brandon wrote: "Anyone else notice how Kvothe seems taken aback when the Smith's Apprentice calls his sword the Poet-Killer?

Why does this surprise him? Thoughts?"

I assume either because Kvothe thought it was called something similar himself originally.

Or because he kills a poet with it.

message 31: by Brandon (new)

Brandon Nolan | 18 comments Amber wrote: "Brandon wrote: "Anyone else notice how Kvothe seems taken aback when the Smith's Apprentice calls his sword the Poet-Killer?

Why does this surprise him? Thoughts?"

I assume either because Kvothe ..."

Yeah but... I wouldn't expect him to be shocked by the name poet-killer if it was actually used to kill a poet...

message 32: by Bill (new)

Bill Brandon wrote: "Amber wrote: "Brandon wrote: "Anyone else notice how Kvothe seems taken aback when the Smith's Apprentice calls his sword the Poet-Killer?

Why does this surprise him? Thoughts?"

I assume either b..."

Maybe he's taken aback that people consider Ambrose a poet? (Meaning, he killed Ambrose at some point with that sword.)

message 33: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Maybe he just thinks its a stupid name.

Maybe he is a bit disgusted that someone would name his sword Poet Killer. You know how he feels about poets...


That'd be like if I had famous sword and people started calling it Mathbender.
I'd be like..WTF? I hate math...bull shit!

message 34: by Yumimi (last edited Apr 26, 2013 02:40AM) (new)

Yumimi | 1 comments So I was listening to the audiobook, and I found a mention of something interesting, this is Lorren during Kvothe's admission in NotW

Master Lorren was pale and seemed unnaturally tall even while sitting. “Who was the first declared king of Tarvintas?” “Posthumously? Feyda Calanthis. Otherwise it would be his brother, Jarvis.”

[also, big lurker and that is one damn amazing theory thistlepong]

message 35: by Ions (new)

Ions thistlepong is the undisputed king of fantastic theories!!!

message 36: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Ions wrote: "thistlepong is the undisputed king of fantastic theories!!!"

The Robot King of the Rothfussian's Board.

Except...I thought Thistlepong was a she?!

The Female Robot King?!

*bends the knee*

message 37: by Carver (new)

Carver | 2 comments “They’re thick in your gardens. They drink the nectar from your selas flowers. . . . But it’s a little rough on the poor little calanthis.”

Wondering if this is symbolic of a Calanthis connection to Denna via Kvothe's attribution of the selas to her. At least the imagery of a Calanthis member "drinking" from Denna is not farfetched, and her importance is mostly unknown.

Some have also tried to connect the selas to the moon, so there's that as well.

I guess this could be developed further, but I'm not sure where to take it.

message 38: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I kinda like that.
We know Denna's patron is involved in Vintic court.

Doesn't the selas flower bloom in moonlight or something like that...I can't remember now.

I was kinda routing for Maer Alveron to be her patron as well, but someone in the Calanthis family would be interesting.

message 39: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Carver wrote: "Wondering if this is symbolic of a Calanthis connection to Denna via Kvothe's attribution of the selas to her. At least the imagery of a Calanthis member "drinking" from Denna is not farfetched, and her importance is mostly unknown.

Some have also tried to connect the selas to the moon, so there's that as well.

I guess this could be developed further, but I'm not sure where to take it. "

This just keeps rattling around like it should fit but I can't remember why or how and doing parallels and searches tends to take time.

Denna's colors are wrong for a Calanthis patron, but I certainly see her involved in some way in all this.

message 40: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Her colors are right for Maer Alveron though correct?

I'm still having trouble keeping all these colors straight, I only started picking up on that because of you! Totally blew right past it on all my reads. *facepalm*

message 41: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Supposing I'm right about the colors thing, of course. I guess what I meant is that Kvothe killing Roderic and Denna being Roderic's patron don't necessarily fit together for me. Right now I'm thinking of Carver's quote implying Denna being used as bait for Calanthis in some way.

Honestly, I stumbled on the colors backwards. I made a guess about formal structure and other folks threw out examples and something clicked.

message 42: by Carver (new)

Carver | 2 comments It could just have been a way to get the calanthis and selas into the story at the same time. It doesn't necessarily mean there's another reason for it.

And I misread the text to mean the nectar was "a little rough" on the calanthis, but after a reread I see it was just referring to calling them "flits" being rough on it.

message 43: by Drake (new)

Drake (drake2484) | 5 comments I recognized a lot of PR's layers during my read of NOtW and WMF. That's part of why I thought these books were amazing. But until I read some of these posts, I didn't not realize how deep these books are and how little I actually picked up on it. The books just got a whole lot more amazing for me- also, I am apparently stupid. :(

message 44: by Drake (new)

Drake (drake2484) | 5 comments The double negative on the 'not' was an accident. No hidden meaning there. Just poor writing.

message 45: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Oh you're not stupid, we're all just insane.

My guess is most of us have invested an unhealthy amount of free time into these two novels...

message 46: by Drake (new)

Drake (drake2484) | 5 comments @Amber: And that's why I love it here!

Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments I don't have a problem...
really, I can stop analyzing anytime I want to...
DON’T! NO! Don’t touch my book! I’m rereading that page again!
**twitch spasm, faint**

message 48: by Karen (new)

Karen | 53 comments Hi, what do you guys think about princess Ariel being someone new, and neither Auri nor Denna? Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think both Auri and Denna were additions to his books, even after it was a completed 'kingkiller' chronicle.

Kvothe says he is willing to tell Aaron the truth about Ariel, and rescuing her from a sleeping barrow king might be when he kills Roderick. Maybe Ariel is his daughter? I also love the idea that the Maer is next in line, or Ambrose's dad.

On a separate thought, I've seen people post about Kvothe searching for his heart's desire, and most people seem to assume this is Denna, but I thought his true desire was to find info about the Chandrian? I could be mistaken, but i believe he references at some point in Tarbean that this is what he wants more than anything. I'm more inclined to believe that Denna is the 'angel' he has to fight/kill to get what he wants (the truth). Or maybe she's the demon he tricks!

message 49: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I'd be cool with that. I never liked Auri for Princess Ariel. That just never seemed Rothfuss' style to me, plus the name relations are way to obvious for my tastes.

I like the idea of it being Denna, but on the same token, it doesn't make a lot of sense. She literally sells herself to get what little she does have, if she were a princess this seems rather odd.

I know Auri was added into the story and not from the original manuscript, but I've never read or heard that about Denna.
Thistlepong can you reference otherwise?
I try to stay abreast with all Pat's interviews but some of the older stuff I haven't waded through just yet.

I agree though that likely Kvothe's hearts desire is not Denna. I don't know why people think that. I get that he likes her, but, in my opinion, he has hardly expressed the emotion of Love toward her.
I agree his hearts desire has been shown to be his quest for information on the Chandrian. Even Ctheah seems to see that.
I always assumed that Denna would be the one who betrays him.

message 50: by Karen (new)

Karen | 53 comments Yes, you're right, my bad. It was Devi and Auri who were added in, not Denna.

I totally agree that Denna might betray him, possibly to her (Chandrian?) patron by inadvertently spilling some info (that he finally confides in her, maybe?) and then the Amyr have to come "clean up" by killing her.

That would be satisfying!

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