I'm new here with many question. One is: Is the LDS market broad enough for clean romantic sizzle?

[Julie]

I know I shouldn't comment and just leave it alone, but as a mainstream LDS writer who has been published by a mainstream LDS publisher, I feel like we're being painted with a pretty broad brush.

Sure, there are LDS books who preach and may be shallow, but I find that in mainstream Christian fiction as well. The villain who is witnessed to, while holding a gun on his victims, who suddenly sees the light and puts down the gun to go to church---that sort of thing happens all the time. I think you will find stories not to your liking no matter what you read. We all bring different life experience to every book we read and so what's preachy and shallow to you, may not be to someone else. That's why we're all entitled to our opinion.

But to say it's all bad, or it's all preachy or shallow, is doing a disservice in my mind. I have read LDS literature that made me think, made me laugh, and made me cry. I hopefully have written it as well. But, even if no one ever liked my books, I put my best story out there and I love it, my publisher loved it and felt that it had quality writing and a market. Hopefully my readers will, too.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is good LDS fiction out there, really great gems, but I think you will find what you're looking for. If you're looking for the shallow and the preachy, I'm sure you'll find it. If you're looking for a story that uplifts you and makes you think, you'll find that, too. LDS fiction has really come a long way in the last ten years or so and I'm proud of it, proud of the writers who have put themselves and their stories out there.

[Brooke]

Thank you Julie!

I admit I've read some LDS fiction that wasn't my favorite, but hey, I've read lots of books, in lots of genres that weren't my favorite. LDS fiction isn't any different than any other genre, you like some, you don't like some.

I don't know how others "divide" their genres, but to me there are 2 aspects to LDS writing.

1. There are books that are written by LDS authors, but the writing does not have anything to do with the church, there is no mention of the church, the characters aren't mormon, etc.
2. There are books written by any author where the characters are LDS, LDS situations or doctrines are discussed.

I am fairly new to reading LDS fiction,specifically #2 above, and have found that some of it I really enjoy. It is good to read a book that has people that believe the same things I do.

Ditto to Julie, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Jane]

I have to agree with AR and Amber. I tried to read what LDS fiction is out there. Maybe I was just reading the wrong stuff, but it just seemed not interesting, not real, usually about the perfect LDS family with 7 kids who do everything they're supposed to but have the one child who just has to be wayward, blah blah blah. It just wasn't for me. So when I started writing mine, I wrote something I would like to read myself. There is nothing dirty, but there is sexual tension. And it's not in Utah! MC is LDS, but she's in NY and mostly surrounded by non-members-and they act like non-members. But since she is LDS, I did include the "missionary lessons," because my book is aimed at non-members too. I had an LDS person tell me that I shouldn't have put al the LDS doctrine in there (though there wasn't a lot). She said LDS people don't need me to spell it out and the non-members wouldn't appreciate it. But she was wrong about that. If I were writing strictly for the LDS audience, then I would agree with her. But I don't come from an LDS background. I'm a convert. My book is for LDS, non-LDS, dog lovers, and anyone else who wants to read something fun. Everyone is different, nothing is black and white. Everything has a place. The trick is not putting those things in the wrong place. I've gotten a lot of feedback from non-members actually thanking me for clearing some things up for them, for telling things they hadn't known about the church. Members have thanked me for reminding them of things they knew but had forgotten, or for helping them reaffirm their faith. Balance.

[A. R.]

I would love to read some well-written, character developed, LDS fiction. Some of you have said that I have just been reading the wrong authors. That could be. I will readily admit that I have not read it all. I read many when I was younger (and I mean in my teens) and then picked up several in the last couple of years when life has allowed me more time to read.

I read and loved The Children of the Promise Series by Dean Hughes. I enjoyed, although thought it uneven, The Work and the Glory series by Gerald Lund. I have read Anita Stansfield (who from all I can tell in the matron of LDS fiction) and many other authors and found them wanting. I recently read Edenbrooke, which I thought well written, but again a little saccharine and shallow in the character department.

On the other hand, I LOVED LOVED LOVED, Bound on Earth by Angela Halstrom. In fact, we just read that title in our local LDS bookclub. I have yet to read anything of that caliber published by mainstream LDS publishers. You will not find Bound on Earth at Deseret Bookstores or Seagull bookstores because, although its clean clean clean, it deals with subject matter that those publishers don't wish to promote.

Please, please, tell me specific titles I can look for in the LDS market. I really want to like and appreciate LDS fiction. I really want to support fellow members in their work. I really want to have a list of good books to share with friends. But the majority of what I have read in the LDS market has been extremely dissatisfying. So I guess what I am saying is that, yes, there is some out there - but I think it is difficult to find, and I wish it wasn't.

So please pass on some titles - I would love to be proved wrong. And I will come back and beg humble forgiveness when I am, :)

[Brooke]

Borrowed Light
I just read this book and loved it. It won a Whitney Award last year and for me, I can see why. Hopefully you will like it too.

[A. R.]

Brooke wrote: "Borrowed Light
I just read this book and loved it. It won a Whitney Award last year and for me, I can see why. Hopefully you will like it too."

Thanks! I will check it out!

[Jane]

All I know to tell you about right now are my own, so here's to throwing yourself out there. They are only light romance, romantic comedy even, but good reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0095XN2QW
and
http://www.amazon.com/Reigning-Cats-H...

[Julie]

Off the top of my head, LDS authors with LDS themes that I have loved (and I like historical fiction overall as you will see from my list):

Before I Say Goodbye by Rachel Nunes
Letters in the Jade Dragon Box by Gale Sears
The Silence of God by Gale Sears
The Last Waltz by GG Vandagriff
In the Company of Angels by David Farland
Daughters of Jared H.B. Moore
My Loving Vigil Keeping by Carla Kelly

There are so many, I could go on and on. If we're talking about LDS authors who write great novels that are clean with excellent plot and characters, but not necessarily LDS themed, well, the list would be as long as my arm. I mentioned a few but will do so again with some other of my favorites---Joyce DiPastena, Jeff Savage, Josi Kilpack, Sarah Eden, Stephanie Black, Robison Wells, GG Vandagriff, Anne Perry, Heart of the Ocean by Heather Moore, The Rent Collector by Camron Wright, and books by Tanya Parker Mills. But, like I said before, I think you will find what you're looking for, and what appeals to me and my heart, might not get the same from you.

[Linda]

“We will yet have Miltons and Shakespeares of our own. God's ammunition is not exhausted. His brightest spirits are held in reserve for the latter times. In God's name and by his help we will build up a literature whose top shall touch heaven . . .” (The Contributor, July 1888).

[Linda]

above quote by Orson F. Whitney

[Jane]

...and anything at all by Orson Scott Card.

[Ellise]

I want my work to be worthy of a temple recommend interview...:) Need I say more? haha

But it's true. I want to be able to stand before God and know that I have contributed, not taken away. Honestly, I'm not THAT good, but my writing was simply a means to an end...that hasn't seen it's end yet. =D

Also, if you look at my reading list, you'll see LDS fiction there that I've loved or just liked ok. I star rate everything.

[Maria]

What a great thread to stumble upon! I'm also an LDS writer, writing contemporary LDS women's fiction. I was poking around searching for marketing ideas/ places to go to be seen by LDS readers as an indie publisher, so if anyone comes across some and would like to share, I'd love to hear.

As far as the rest of this thread...I, too, have some really good friends who say they won't read LDS fiction because they say it's too shallow or simplistic. Honestly, part of the reason I started writing LDS fiction is because I want to be someone who helps change that stereotype. That, and I wanted to write what I want to read. I agree that there's some LDS fiction out there that disappoints, but I agree with Julie that there's more and more out there that's worth reading. I like having a clean read, and I like that they are dealing with difficult subjects which are realistic to me as a reader. I don't think everything has to be murder or abuse or infidelity to be an issue or trial or problem to overcome. I also agree that not everything needs to be a conversion story or tidy romance (though those are okay sometimes, too). That's what's so great about books--there's room for everyone. But there's the issue again (I've come full circle)--finding a way to connect with readers looking for what I (we) write.

Thanks for your thoughts and I'm excited to have found a few more authors to check out!

[[deleted user]]

Here are some of the ones I liked:
The Fablehaven series by Brandon Mull
Most of Shannon Hale's books.
Sheralyn Pratt's (But watch out for the one called Kayesville - very disturbing.) Rhea Jensen books.
Josi Kilpack's culinary mysteries. They get better as they go.
My main complaint about many LDS authors (including some listed above that are recommended by other people) is the quality of the writing itself. It's not quite polished enough, needed better editing and wouldn't have been published by mainstream publishers for a reason. Which is really too bad because some of the books listed by others above have the seeds of being quite good - but needed another rewrite or two.
Having said that I have to say the writing overall is improving. And I am hopeful about the future of LDS books.

[Julie]

I think the fact that there are so many great LDS writers who started out in the LDS market and have made it with national publishers attest to the fact that LDS writers have what it takes quality-wise. James Dashner started out with a small LDS publisher, now he's gone with Delacorte (an imprint of Random House)and his book The Maze Runner is a best seller and is currently being made into a movie. Same thing with Jeff Savage, Sarah Eden, Janette Rallison and many others. I think the quality of writing and writers in the LDS market is actually comparable to the national market. You have the bestsellers, the midlisters, and the ones that make you shake your head. But it's all there and I'm enjoying what is being offered.

[[deleted user]]

I've read James Dashner's early books- The Door in the Woods- etc. He came to our book club and discussed them too (long time ago). I cringed at the writing the whole way through the books, but I noticed the writing improved with each one and I enjoyed his plots. I remember wanting him to succeed because the seeds were there. It didn't surprise me that he got a national publisher because he was so open to suggestions and critiques. He didn't care how painful they were - his desire to write a good book outweighed his sensitivity.

I've given this a great deal of thought and I think that effective LDS writing (especially for the kind that has a specifically LDS theme)comes when the author shows us what happened and doesn't comment on it, doesn't have anyone lecture or explain things but allows the natural consequences of what people do play out and allows the reader to come to their own conclusions.

So if you have a story that is showing something - like the difference in choices people make in their love lives - show us. Please, all you authors who are writing and commenting here - do not tell us. We readers have brains in our heads and can figure the moral to the story out without being told. Telling is boring, preachy, and cheesey.

But we are tired of all the graphic, depressing, and lost nature of what's in the mainstream media. You have a captive audience. We want to love your books - we want you to succeed - and we want you to keep writing!

[Julie]

I've read a lot of national books that made me cringe and wonder how it ever got published. I've read national books that made me cry, that made me laugh, and gave me butterflies. I've also found that in the LDS market. That's all I'm saying. You will find those things in every market. The gems are there, just like the fool's gold. You just have to know where to look.

[[deleted user]]

I'm not disagreeing with this.

[Jane]

And then there are differences of opinion. Some people will love what others hate. I have read critiques by people (agents, editors, people in publishing-and I don't refer here to critiques of my own work) who were supposed to be professionals, and I disagreed with everything they said. They are supposed to be thinking about what readers will probably like, not what they personally are tired of seeing, or what someone wrote that they didn't understand, etc.

[A. R.]

Rebecca wrote: "Here are some of the ones I liked:
The Fablehaven series by Brandon Mull
Most of Shannon Hale's books.
Sheralyn Pratt's (But watch out for the one called Kayesville - very disturbing.) Rhea Jensen..."

I think sometimes that the editing issues are a result of LDS publishers not having the resources to work with authors the way mainstream publishers do. Even agents will help a writer flush out editing issues if the bonesto a good story are there along with the ability to write well enough to shine through those editing mistakes. It seems that most LDS writers do not have agents - why would they need them when LDS publishers will look at whatever is sent. And I'm not complaining about that. I think it's wonderful that an LDS writer has a shot at publication without having to pass the muster with an agent. But like I said, LDS publishers don't have the capital to hire good editors who can take the time to correct and really work with an author. Kind of a sad affair actually.

I do agree that the field is widening, and there are good LDS writers out there. I still have a hard time with LDS fiction, but I suppose that too is changing. I remember the day when Jack Wayland was about all you could get in LDS fiction. The market certainly is increasing, as well as genre's within it.

[Julie]

I don't mean to argue with you, I promise, but I was an editor for two LDS publishing houses (one large one small) and I can tell you, we work hard with authors and in polishing their books and we are generally well-qualified. I have a bachelor's degree in English-teaching and taught Journalism at BYU for fourteen years and most of the editors I know are similarly qualified. The thing of it is, if there is ten or less errors in a book, that is considered a well-edited book. In my experience, it is rare that the bigger LDS publishing houses have more errors than that. And while I'm not an editor any longer, I think you have to take into account that you can't generalize all LDS publishers. Smaller LDS publishers struggle with hiring qualified people, as you say, but I don't think that's true of the big ones like Covenant and DB.

My two cents.

[A. R.]

Just out of curiousity, as an editor...did you work with the authors on story development? character development? That's what I was thinking of when I made that comment. And I have a daughter who just did an internship at Cedar Fort, and her experience was that very little editing was done in that regard. Most editing was line and copy editing, and resource and fact checking. I may be mistaken. I will readily admit that I know little about the workings of a publishing house. But I have heard first hand stories of agents and editors who really work and work with authors to get their stories told correctly. If DB and Covenant do that - that's terrific! And it wasn't that I think the editors are unqualified...I'm sorry if that's what it sounded like. I just didn't think they had the time to spend on really refining a book because they needed to get them on the shelves as soon as possible. After all, publishers are in business to make money. And they can't make it if the product isn't on the shelf. :)

[[deleted user]]

Jane wrote: "And then there are differences of opinion. Some people will love what others hate. I have read critiques by people (agents, editors, people in publishing-and I don't refer here to critiques of my o..."

I think it's important to take this into account. I'm not a professional - let me make that clear. I have a lot of friends who write and they often bring me their manuscripts for critiquing and I have to say fantasy is not my favorite genre - but most of what I get is fantasy to look over and sometimes it's hard to separate myself from the genre and look at the writing - not that I dislike fantasy - but it's not my favorite. I suspect there are definite tastes and opinions reflected in certain publishers. I'm not saying it's right or wrong - I'm just saying it's there. Just because someone submitted to these publishers and didn't get accepted doesn't mean the work wasn't good.

[Julie]

A.R. since I was published with Covenant I can tell you from an author's perspective there is definitely work on story development and characterization. When you have a work accepted with Covenant or Deseret Book, (and that's after going through the submission process) you can expect a year and a half to two years before you see it on the shelves. For example, if your book was accepted today, it would be on the shelves in mid to late 2015 because 2014 is already full and they're working on their titles for 2015. Unless you're one of their established authors, then it's faster of course. That's because there's a lot of work that goes into it, including several passes with your personal editor (every author gets assigned one) and then copy editor, proofers, etc.

I don't want to criticize other publishers, but there are a few in the LDS market who don't have good editors and their products are known for being, how can I put it? Less than. Like you say, some just want to get product on the shelves for the money, and the quality suffers. Which, of course, gives a bad reputation to all LDS fiction when readers pick up those books and think, wow, this is crappy and poorly edited. But we all do what we can to share the books we loved and that were well done to hopefully offset that.

I hope that answers a few of your questions. :)

[Stephanie]

Julie wrote: "A.R. since I was published with Covenant I can tell you from an author's perspective there is definitely work on story development and characterization. When you have a work accepted with Covenant..."

Having just gone through this experience, I find your comment interesting...My book was just published through Deseret Book and it has been less than ideal. They communicated little to me, rushed things in the end, and now that my book is live, I am having to go back and fix a ton of editing mistakes because if I wait for them to do it, it won't get done. I didn't think I had a bad editor, but now I'm not so sure. I feel like my book was better before the editing. I think that there just isn't the money involved with LDS publishers that larger publishers might have and so the job isn't what it should be when it comes to publishing. Very frustrating and embarrassing from the author's POV. I thought I was delivering a good product...Judge for yourself: On the Way Home by Stephanie Wells Mason.

[Julie]

Stephanie, I've heard of things like this when the book is only being produced digitally. Is yours a print edition as well or only digital? That might explain the discrepancy.

[Stephanie]

Only digital, unfortunately. Maybe if I can make a name for myself I can one day have a space on a non-virtual shelf!

[Julie]

I hope you can, too, and maybe your experience will be better. :( Good luck with your book!

[Stephanie]

Thanks!