Complaint Department discussion
POST COMPLAINTS HERE
Preston wrote: "...Dreamspinner didn't want it because, if the sequel is like it's predecessor A Life Apart, it is not the typical M/M formulaic series of tropes or as Lori once termed the usual M/M fare, 'paint by numbers.'You don't even have step-by-step sex through a close-up lens in A Life Apart so if Gregory's Story is similar the required anal sex one finger, two finger, three finger -pop- let's fook is missing. If it is similar to your novels Thunderbolt:Torn Enemy of Rome and A Life Apart, it is a gay male romance not a big misunderstanding with erotica tossed in here and there. So of course they spurned it. It's too real. Why I bet you even made the mistake of having the story be historically accurate instead of fantasy history..."
My biggest complaint about M/M fiction is that it seems to be falling, all ready, into a rut. I have read my fair share of it, and enjoyed a lot of it, but there's something missing, something substantial that I can't quite put a finger on.
There are authors who do a very good job of writing outside of Preston's highly accurate description - Kaje Harper is one such author and I know there are others - but by and large, most seem more focused on getting the two hunky-hunks in bed (or where ever) as fast as possible. It gets old very, very fast. And I find it extremely unbelievable. Especially when it comes to the "HEA" trope. And what really gets old fast is the need for really really "hot" sex in every way possible. >wrinkles nose<
If you're a member of the M/M Romance group, go have a look at the current Poll on the subject and you'll see why gay fiction proper has suffered in recent years. The whole thing is powered by as much by the consumers as the publishing houses. It's sad that this happens, but market forces often push out or marginalize really good books because they don't have all the tropes a certain segment of the readership seem to expect. I've seen reviews that gave poor reviews to good books because they didn't have all the explicit sex scenes a reader wanted. It's sad to see that happen.
Lori wrote: "My biggest complaint about M/M fiction is that it seems to be falling, all ready, into a rut. I have read my fair share of it, and enjoyed a lot of it, but there's something missing, something substantial that I can't quite put a finger on...." With a bad attitude I grump that the missing substantial item that our very smart and very tactful member Lisa cannot quite put a finger on is in the majority of M/M more often than not what's missing is a plot and realism. Or rather a real plot instead of the big misunderstanding, gay-for-you, coming out and the others on the list of common M/M tired old tropes repeated endlessly in book after book.
I'm sure Lori ould put a finger on any missing elements but was too polite to rant and of course, I'm not.
Roger Kean's historical romance books have exciting adventures and plots that are interesting even if you took out the gay romance. Thankfully he writes gay male romances in his well-thought out, fascinating plots because he writes about heroic acts. Nothing brings out the exhilarating and breathtaking heroism and character in people more intensely than love.
You and Monika and I among others here who are reinvigorated with great stories of realism which break the mold in M/M gay fiction are among the first to point out there are other writers both female and male who have written books that are outside of the cliché regurgitated M/M stories with the formulaic, almost required M/M plot devices.
Unfortunately as you have said publishers go with what is both common and has has sex by the numbers so that great stories by men and women whose novels are not typical never get marketed by publishers. The highest award for LGBT writing are the Lambdas. It isn't coincidental that Lambda award for best romance this year went to Jay Bell's Something Like Winter which was self-published.
I so frequently find that my favorite books are self-published which just is further proof to me that the publishers don't really understand what women (and men') want in their romance novels with men in love.
Preston, dear heart, I do not know who this Lisa is, but she sounds a very intelligent person! ;opIf you want some of the better writers who write good fiction, I also highly recommend checking out MLR Press (Kaje Harper's books come through their presses, along with Richard Stevenson, Neil Plakcy, and others).
I'm deregusted to find out that even Al Qaeda has started a complaint department. See the video: Al Qaeda Complaints Department Now Accepting Grievances on Youtube at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5JBS...
Reminder:We also have the beginnings of what I hope will be a nice sized Complaint Department Video Library.
Lots of you have see my favorite complaint video “Complaint Depart Choir Bealtsine, Ireland, but there are so many more videos in the Complaint Department’s video library including:
COMPLAINTS DEPARTMENT: Dan Levy On The Worst Words In The World
Complaint's Choir of Chicago (People are invited to submit their complaints and the choir sings them.)
Complaints Department Neal Brennan (Comic Neal Brennan complains for 56 seconds.)
Complaining about People Complaining - Monty Python (Way too short Monty Python skit.)
FACEBOOK IS NOT THE LIFE COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT!! (Spaced out young guy drones on about stupid complaints. He is boring and annoying at first but soon you get to the point where you want to strangle him.)
Three Tips For Complaining
Pope Francis Says Complaining is Not A Sin (Pope Francis describes why complaining to God is not a sin. Catholics now are free to complain and with God's approval.
Tips for Complaining in the UK (Relevant laws and some suggestions on how to complain in the United Kingdom.)
Complaint Department by Andy Slattery
We will have more on the way.
Lori wrote: "Preston, dear heart, I do not know who this Lisa is, but she sounds a very intelligent person! ;opIf you want some of the better writers who write good fiction, I also highly recommend checking o..."
Sorry to say with deep sullenness I complain
Feel free to call me any name that strikes your fancy. My brain was taking a nap when my fingers (but not my heart) typed Lisa and I apologize.
You mentioned Richard Stevenson who is the author Don Strachey private eye series. The murderous Don Strachey mysteries are set in my home town so I recognize the streets and places too and know that there is realism in the setting. Some of his
Another author
I also like books including Zathyn Priest's The Slayer's Apprentice and Turning Idolater by Edward C. Patterson also the magnificent short story of two footy players Beautiful Soul by D. River (aka gay YA author Chris O'Guinn.)
Thank you
Preston wrote: "You mentioned Richard Stevenson who is the author Don Strachey private eye series. The murderous Don Strachey mysteries are set in my home town so I recognize the streets and places too and know that there is realism in the setting. Some of his Lisa Don Strachey books have become films with more films to come but they are quite unreal since instead of upstate NY they are filmed in Canada where the producers can get subsidies and tax breaks and those kind of perks for Independent filmmakers that the US does not have."Too true and they changed the story big time in the movie version of Shock to the System. On the other hand, it's cool to see Donald and Timmy together on screen, though I think their relationship is better in the books. I do like the movies, however.
Love your rant Preston and Lori what you said I get it even agree with a lot of it but I need to put my two cents in here and it probably won't be popular with some people also I'm really terrible at writing my thoughts down so they're coherent hopefully this will make sense.While I totally agree there are some really fabulous Gay Fiction writers ie. Roger Kean, Larry Closs, Jay Bell to name a few, some get overlooked and manuscripts are refused by publishers and even though I may not agree with them there is a reason and I can't totally blame the publishers. It all boils down to money. They take what they know will sell, what the masses want it's a business and businesses want to make money that's what they are there for, if they don't that business would not exist people would be out of work. Like some movies that get passed over by studios dozens of times, I'm sure in that pile of movies we would find some really great ones but probably only really great to a small number of people and again studios are in it for the money. Unlike movies thankfully now in the ebook world it's relatively easy to self publish what is not easy is the promotional aspect but not all publishers are good at that so you may be published but your book would still just sit there if you don't push it any way you can and this I know for a fact. I'll won't start naming publishers that are good at promotion and those that aren't that is a whole other topic that I won't get into.
Preston you said "With a bad attitude I grump that the missing substantial item that our very smart and very tactful member Lisa cannot quite put a finger on is in the majority of M/M more often than not what's missing is a plot and realism. Or rather a real plot instead of the big misunderstanding, gay-for-you, coming out and the others on the list of common M/M tired old tropes repeated endlessly in book after book." I have no argument with what you said here but I do have to say do you honestly think M/F Romance is any different? We need to separate M/M fiction, which I call Gay Fiction so that it's understood it's not M/M Romance the two totally different things. Gay Fiction centers around the plot and yes sometimes there is a romance but that romance doesn't completely drive the story to me it's a beautiful addition. Now M/M Romance is pretty much only about the romance and if you get a great plot that's a bonus again it's no different in the M/F Romance world.
I do get a bit annoyed when the M/M Romance genre is trashed or picked apart for it's content, we live in a free world, if you don't like a program on TV don't watch it, if you don't like what a movie is about don't go and see it and if you don't like how M/M Romance books are written don't read them plan and simple. Whoops a free world also lets you say whatever you want I don't mean you shouldn't say what you think of M/M Romance I'm just saying what annoys me.
Everyone has a right to read or write whatever they like and if there is a market to sell it I say go for it but please I wish we could stop thinking that some of the silly tropes we read in M/M books is exclusive to M/M it's not.
Now on a personal note, you're right I am invigorated with great stories of realism just like I need stories to challenge my brain and I'm not limited to one subject, I love sci-fi, fantasy, comtemporary, historicals and mystery my reading doesn't need to be filled with page after page of sex but in a romance I better feel that sexual tension or the romance just fizzles. That's not to say I haven't read some really great books that are filled with page after page of sex but the sex is there for a reason and I'm fine with that. You mentioned Zathyn Priest's The Slayer's Apprentice I loved that story actually I love everything Zathyn Priest and Beautiful Soul by D. River was beautiful but the rest of that series didn't work for me.
That's it for my rant I'm sure later on I'll think of things I didn't say!
I apologize for the length and thank those that read it. :-)
Monika wrote: "I wish we could stop thinking that some of the silly tropes we read in M/M books is exclusive to M/M it's not..."Yup that makes me complain bitterly because it reminds me that, in my personal opinion, of one of the worst kinds of M/M books are the ones that are the chicks with a dick stories. Chicks with dicks stories are ones where writers take a M/F Romance and just change the pronouns to make it M/M. These are the bodice ripper books by writers who have one big tall muscular masculine top and one short, thin, long haired feminine bottom.
:-(
Preston wrote: "Monika wrote: "I wish we could stop thinking that some of the silly tropes we read in M/M books is exclusive to M/M it's not..."Yup that makes me complain bitterly because it reminds me that, in..."
I understand why you feel that way but it doesn't only happen in M/M Romance. I got sick and tired of the simpering, I can't do anything for myself, please save me damsel in distress of M/F Romance books but I won't say they shouldn't write that type of book just because I disagree with it or I think it's so totally unrealistic. I just don't read it, and that was my point, you may hate it but others love it, there is no right or wrong and for the most part Romance of any genre is fantasy not realism.
I
Averin wrote: "Out of curiosity, where would you put Blood Red Butterfly?"I'd put it into gay manga romance.
[Edited to add]
On second thought, it's not really manga - since true manga favors a power imbalance between pairings. The two characters are evenly matched in BRB. There's also a Latino character who can't quite handle and accept his feelings for Kai, though he tries.
Lanyon's characters are, more often than not, evenly matched with a few exceptions - such as Perry & Nick from The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks. By Lanyon's own admission, Perry is an "omega" to Nick's alpha. But it's a rare character for Lanyon who tends more to equal or A/B pairings.
Pope Francis declares complaining is not a sin.
see youtube at video at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lEy...
Preston wrote: "Pope Francis declares complaining is not a sin.
see youtube at video at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lEy...
"
Gosh I hope complaining isn't a sin, if it is I'm in big trouble. :-P
Monika wrote: "I understand why you feel that way but it doesn't only happen in M/M Romance. I got sick and tired of the simpering, I can't do anything for myself, please save me damsel in distress of M/F Romance books but I won't say they shouldn't write that type of book just because I disagree with it or I think it's so totally unrealistic. I just don't read it, and that was my point, you may hate it but others love it, there is no right or wrong and for the most part Romance of any genre is fantasy not realism."Yet, a lot of people, when asked, say they read M/M fiction because it doesn't use those tropes!
I have started scaling back on reading romance (of any sort) because I find most of it highly unsatisfying. Also, it's really bad when you want to take control of the female character for a long moment and have her turn around and slap the male character silly for stepping into her personal space, much less trying to kiss her.
Preston wrote: "Pope Francis declares complaining is not a sin.
see youtube at video at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lEy..."
Hmmm. Complaining is a good, cathartic thing to do, but as a type of prayer? Nah.
As for the Al-Qaeda one you posted earlier, I'm surprised that a shooting of the complainant wasn't involved!
Lori wrote: "Monika wrote: "I understand why you feel that way but it doesn't only happen in M/M Romance. I got sick and tired of the simpering, I can't do anything for myself, please save me damsel in distres..."Hmmm....I don't know I've never asked if that's the reason people, and I'm sure you mean women, read M/M because I don't know many men that are okay with those tropes yet there are still a lot of men that read it and enjoy it.
The point I was trying to make and obviously badly, is M/M and M/F romance have the same type of tropes and if you don't like it then don't read it, it's that simple, none of it is meant to be real it's all meant to be fantasy.
I still read anything and everything put in front of me but I have a reason why I do it. I do understand both sides of this argument but my thoughts stay the same on this subject.
PS....I'm one of those that likes to play devils advocate. :-P
I'm annoyed and confuddled by the illogical thinking behind book bans. These in particular make little to no sense that I can tell.
That annoys and baffles me Lori, I can't see the reasoning behind that one and nope I won't be playing devils advocate here, there are just no words.
Monika wrote: "...'none of it is meant to be real it's all meant to be fantasy..."That's my complaint. Gay male romances shouldn't be fantasy. I'm sure there are readers of M/M romance who think gay-for-you exists in the real world because they read so many books about it. They read M/M books where everybody has anal sex and so some people think all gays have anal sex. Since there are no definitive studies and what studies there are conclude a range of only 20-50 percent have anal sex. M/M insistence on everyone having anal sex could not only mislead the public but be detrimental to young people who may even have real worries that they cannot perform.
Most of the M/M books have total tops are total bottoms This is a lie too. Many if not a majority of gay men are versatile with preferences. These are just three of many myths and misconceptions M/M romance and books not only perpetuate but create and spread.
It is wrong, wrong ,wrong because it misinforms the public, spreads stereotypes and is confusing or even harmful. Plus it's no fun to read authors spreading generalities and stereotypes to people who don't consider gay loves stories just fantasies. Some people don't know enough about the difference to be able to make an informed choice on "if you don't like it then don't read it, it's that simple" take them or leave them. Some guys just exploring gay relationships and sex as they are growing up use M/M along with internet porn as instruction manuals.
I would never say everyone should to be happy with both realistic gay fiction and M/M fantasy books written to please the specific needs of a predominantly female audience. Then stating "none of it is meant to be real it's all meant to be fantasy." implies it doesn't matter. Publishers are OK, readers are OK, writers are OK, I'm, OK you're OK. No it's not okay and everyone isn't right in their own opinion.
There is a right and wrong. It is not all a choice. I stand by what I wrote and heartily but politely disagree that books with love stories are all fantasies. Not only do I but many others take them very seriously so it is wrong to say if you don't like it don't read it. That's like saying if you don't like war don't read the news.
M/M romances breed myths that are untrue and that is wrong. Publishers that reject books that are realistic are censoring the truth. Writers who deserve to be read are being rejected by publishers. Many writers and readers of typical M/M romance regardless of gender don't know the difference so they are perpetuating and fostering lies.
It's not all good.
Preston wrote: "Monika wrote: "...'none of it is meant to be real it's all meant to be fantasy..."That's my complaint. Gay male romances shouldn't be fantasy. I'm sure their are readers of M/M romance who think..."
We are going to disagree on this and I won't do it here anymore I'll send a PM with my thoughts and leave it up to you if you want to post it.
Wyre Piddle, as they say in Pershore (W.P. is an ancient village next to Pershore, Evesham, but it makes a nice grumble-word) I have to visit the dentist for a check-up. Then I have a few lines to add to the dramatic debate which raged as i slept the night away…
Roger wrote: "Wyre Piddle, as they say in Pershore (W.P. is an ancient village next to Pershore, Evesham, but it makes a nice grumble-word) I have to visit the dentist for a check-up. Then I have a few lines to ..."Shame on you for sleeping! ;@p
Shame on me, indeed. Fancy that, having any time to sleep!
My beef with the plethora of M/M publishers is less to do with the content of a lot of what is published, so much as it is with the so-called "rules of good writing", which are very little to do with good writing. The whole thing is quite Orwellian– words that say one thing and mean quite another. One of these publishers has banned the use of the semi-colon, although I'm unsure on what grounds beyond its "redundancy".
Then there is the head-hopping hatred, which seems peculiarly M/M Romance. One head-hop, one mixed POV and you're out. In which case, so is more than 60% (that's not a scientific evaluation) of 20th-century American and European writing. If the so-called rules the editors of the romance publishing houses adhere to were strictly applied to a fresh submission by, say, Frank Herbert, the masterpiece Dune would be rejected outright. There are several good How To Edit Yourself Into print books, but it seems to me that those who call themselves editors at these houses don't look at the advice on clarity of reading—and let's face it, that's what writing is about from a technical point of view, clarity—as advice. No, they see rigid rules, what used to be called a "House Style"—a means of creating consistency in spelling, punctuation, and general style—has become a writers' lexicographic gulag. It's not new, but all editors should be made to watch the Stephen Fry attack on pedantry and then apply it not just to words but across the creative writing board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-a...
And then, not to do with publishers, the pigeon-holing of books by BIC type means that gay writing has waned in the face of the M/M Romance onslaught, even though there are times when one is the same as the other. It is an argument—perhaps rightly—shot down in flames by the likes of "Steelwhisper" that the preponderance of female authors in "gay" writing has swamped men, all but wiped out gay male authors. The Whisper of Steel has snapped back that more men should get up and write then and stop whinging. But this is a failure of retail to see the distinction that necessarily has to be made. But even Amazon isn't perhaps to blame, when faced with a coalition of acronyms— QUILTBAG; LGBTQ. It all becomes very confusing.
I have no particular beef against heterosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, lesbians, cross-dressers, transvestites, transgenders (oh, that's nice, my autocorrect wants it to be "transponders"… is there a message there?) and anyone who might be questioning for the rest of their lives, but I see no reason why we should all be lumped together for… who's convenience? I'm a gay man, but also I hope a reasonably decent human being, which means I have the normal human sense of sympathy for any minority being oppressed or denied decent equal rights, but quite honestly I am not terribly interested in the interior erotic workings of one of the other capital-lettered groups. So while we insist on using these acronymic labels, who should blame Amazon?
And while Amazon, Book depository, iTunes and so on lump all types of non-heterosexual fiction together as "gay themed" or LGBT or GLBT, the massive range of lady gay-sex writers will dominate.
Whew! I'm not sure if that counted as a rant or not. Truth is I write fiction, and I'm not so clever at polemic.
Roger wrote: "Shame on me, indeed. Fancy that, having any time to sleep!LOL
... If the so-called rules the editors of the romance publishing houses adhere to were strictly applied to a fresh submission by, say, Frank Herbert, the masterpiece Dune would be rejected outright."
As it was, Herbert's book was rejected by 20 different publishers before it got picked up by Chilton's! (Chilton's is better known for their books on car maintenance than fiction.) Dune has one of the most unusual story structures in fiction and we are allowed into the heads of nearly every major character in the book. It's been one of my favorites since I was in high school.
I really don't get the "head hopping hate" thing. I like being able to see into the minds of other characters. First person may give us interesting characters, but it's also a limiting thing to write too. I do read first person narrative, and have favorites, but there are times I would love to know what's going on in the other characters' heads at particular moments.
And, who bans the use of the semi-colon? Really? >shakes head<
======
Side Note:
Labels I have come to find are one of those paradoxical things that can be both binding and limiting while at the same time help to settle the brain into new patterns. Since coming to know what it means to be asexual, I'm a much happier person 'cause I'm not torturing myself with stupidities anymore. By the same token, it's just a small part of the whole, not the entirety.
Lori wrote: "I'm annoyed and confuddled by the illogical thinking behind book bans. These in particular make little to no sense that I can tell."I am frustrated as I find myself in complete agreement with Lori - the banning of literature is shockingly ignorant. Ray Bradbury said "You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." I do not agree with all his political views, but I do agree with this sentiment.
I am quite I will admit that I seldom read contemporary M/M Romance, because I do not read vampires, ghouls, werewolves, zombies, shifters, or improbable story lines that beg the question: You're kidding? Right? I read generally what is loosely categorized as literary fiction, gay-themed or not, gay author or not. I enjoy reading literary, and writing it, too.
It is a curiosity for me that the majority of my published work has come from MLR (Man Love Romance), because if I were to place a percentage of how much romance I've put into those stories, I would have to suggest it's no more than, oh, 15-20%. Maybe even less. So, I'm eternally grateful to MLR for publishing my work in spite of that, or, more precisely, I'm eternally grateful I had editors at MLR who fudged a wee bit on the intent of the house in accepting my stories.
As someone noted in this looooooong string, POV (Head Hops), lack of HEA, and less than rampant every-other-page sex are not issues for me as an author, as I don't believe a well-written story necessarily requires attention to these things, and I am not attentive to them when I write. That said, yes, most M/M editors/publishers have honed in on these particular issues as if they're rancid farts loosed in the confines of a crowded room; stinky things that cannot be tolerated.
I fee like I'm rambling here, but, finally, I suppose my point in all this is that the state of M/M Romance publishing these days has, for me, become quite tiresome and cliched. Yes, there are exceptions and those are valued. But again, finally, do I really need to know how a strapping young Adonis can wiggle himself into a rabbit, make love with a badger, and then find his HEA with a kind-hearted werewolf who, in human form, is a crime-busting Cop on the streets of Chicago? Hoping the point survives the exaggeration...
Hugs, love, kisses, etc. etc.
I am
The fact that so many publisher's turned down the option to publish Dune, as Lori points out, is testament to how the media industry is so hesitant to step outside its own comfort zone (I am continually amazed and overjoyed that Chiltons did just that and went ahead and published what was to become one of my all-time favorite novels). If a publisher recognizes that something sells, they sell more of it and they continue to sell it for as long as it sells (this can apply to television or film studios as well). That is, unfortunately for some, good business sense (although certainly narrow-minded). The attitde that there is little profit in thinking, or publishing, outside the box cripples creativity and frustrates many imaginative people who are trying to find an avenue to reach a potential audience. Unfortunately, it also means that a lot of potentially non-traditional work never reachs the public because media is big business and big business is (writing very, very stereotypically here) inheriently conservative. Thus selling what you know will sell is what conservatively makes the most sense for making profit but it also means that most of the stuff getting published (filmed, produced, etc.) is just more of the same. And now I must complain that I really must stop and get back to writing my thesis.
Laura wrote: "I eagerly grudgingly recommend Sunset and the rest of the Pact Arcanum Series by Arshad Ahsanuddin. AmazingTerrible self-published series that everyone no one should read."Agree with you Laura! I really enjoyed that book:)
Averin wrote: "I'm complaining that I have no words, just this:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/..."
Yeah, I saw that yesterday and wondered ... >shakes head<
George wrote: "It is a curiosity for me that the majority of my published work has come from MLR (Man Love Romance), because if I were to place a percentage of how much romance I've put into those stories, I would have to suggest it's no more than, oh, 15-20%. Maybe even less. So, I'm eternally grateful to MLR for publishing my work in spite of that, or, more precisely, I'm eternally grateful I had editors at MLR who fudged a wee bit on the intent of the house in accepting my stories."I have been consistently pleased with just about everything I've bought from MLR Press over the years. They have a high standard for their authors and don't seem intent on compartmentalizing.
Averin wrote: "I'm complaining that I have no words, just this:http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/..."
I most strongly object that this article doesn't say whether the President of Costa Rica vetoed the bill or signed it in to law. I was curious so a quick google showed he signed the bill and it is now officially Costa Rican Law.
Roger wrote: "Shame on me, indeed. Fancy that, having any time to sleep!"Re: Roger's Message 4879
Bad boy! Stop that licking the screen. Do you know how many germs there are on that screen?
Laura wrote: "I eagerly grudgingly recommend Sunset and the rest of the Pact Arcanum Series by Arshad Ahsanuddin. AmazingTerrible self-published series that everyone no one should read."This sounds both interesting and promising. Thanks Laura.
I'm upset that you might be feeling hot, humid, worn out, or down. A little, peppy happy music, some good looking guys and an ice cold beer is what you need. For quick refreshment try:
http://biggeekdad.com/2013/06/bottle-...
Preston wrote: "Rick wrote: "And now I must complain that I really must stop and get back to writing my thesis."I'm PO'd that you have so much work to do but I wish you the best on your thesis but watch out for those semicolons."
Preston wrote: "Preston wrote: "Rick wrote: "And now I must complain that I really must stop and get back to writing my thesis."I'm PO'd that you have so much work to do but I wish you the best on your thesis bu..."
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13173...
I am loathe to provide Gertrude Stein's thoughts on the semicolon: "They are more powerful more imposing more pretentious than a comma but they are a comma all the same. They really have within them deeply within them fundamentally within them the comma nature."
Averin wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13173…"I protest that the link goes to a anti-LGBTQ remark that shows intolerance for certain sexual minorities
"“My advice to writers just starting out? Don't use semi-colons! They are transvestite hermaphrodites, representing exactly nothing. All they do is suggest you might have gone to college.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Armageddon in Retrospect
It would be confusing to express this without semicolons.
Don't forget to get: a cradle for the cat; nine chops from the slaughter house; and one of those player piano's every Tom, Dick and Harry is buying.
Preston wrote: "Averin wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13173…"The link goes to:
"“My advice to writers just starting out? Don't use semi-colons! They are transvestite hermaphrodites, representing exactl..."
Wikipedia: "According to Lynne Truss, a British writer on grammar, many non-writers avoid the colon and semicolon for various reasons: "They are old-fashioned", "They are middle-class", "They are optional", "They are mysteriously connected to pausing", "They are dangerously addictive (vide Virginia Woolf)", and "The difference between them is too negligible to be grasped by the brain of man".[3] However, the semi-colon is used frequently in academic writing."
One of the chief things I learned on LHNB? Semicolons never belong in dialogue.
I'm annoyed that I'm so confused put a semi colon here; whoops not there use a colon when you want to list or when you want to make a point ie When the evidence points to one conclusion (insert colon here).....Oh and now we shouldn't use ellipses.....
Gahhh! Punctuation gives me a a headache!
Ellipses aren't so bad, it's the em dashes (and occasionally an en dash) and hyphens, grrr
Complaint Department
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A.R. Noble (other topics)
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actually not at all, Lori but really it's best if you do (and quickly, too ;-))