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2013 - April Theme Read - Poland in WW2
I think I will try and read that book as well Geevee, it does looks pretty good and I think the theme read will bring out lots of interesting information from various books that members are going to read - it should be fun.
This looks very interesting Sarah. Thanks for posting.
Some facts on the Polish experience in WWII from "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder.*A non-Jewish Pole in Warsaw alive in 1933 had about the same chances of living until 1945 as a Jew in Germany alive in 1933.
*About as many Poles were killed in the bombing of Warsaw in 1939 as Germans were killed in the bombing of Dresden in 1945.
* More Poles were killed during the Warsaw Uprising than Japanese died in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
*More non-Jewish Poles died at Auschwitz than did Jews of any European country, with only two exceptions: Hungary and Poland itself.
*Of the more than four million Polish citizens murdered by the Germans, about three million were Jews.
*During the Katyn massacre of Polish POWs by the Soviet Union in 1940 22,000 soldiers were killed, including HALF of the entire Polish officer corps.
David thank you these are both interesting and eye opening figures that I'd not seen before - I really must read
by Timothy Snyder.The Polish campaign itself was not the walk over history/popular belief suggests: the battle of France was just one week longer and Poland cost the German army considerable ground casualties including some 20-25% of their aircraft.
David wrote: "Some facts on the Polish experience in WWII from "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder.*A non-Jewish Pole in Warsaw alive in 1933 had about the same chances of living until 1945 as a Jew in Germany aliv..."
Wow, David and Geevee, those are some attention-grabbing statistics. Thank you for posting.
Well the theme month for April has started. Members who want to join in can read one book or a few books covering any aspect of Poland during the Second World War. I've decided to read this title on the subject:
by Kenneth K. KoskodanWhich book are you reading?
In the first chapter to the book I'm reading we are introduced to Jozeph (Joseph) Pilsudski who played a prominant part in Poland's history and was Marshal of the Polish Armed Forces until his death in 1935.For more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3z...
I only recently purchased a copy of this book on Pilsudski if anyone else in interested in further reading:
by Peter Hetherington
Great find .... hope this one is going to sooth my desire to read Polish political history :)
I think it might Amit :)
I found this information about the treaty of mutual defence between England, France & Poland quite interesting, from my book; No Greater Ally, pages 16-17:“Of the three signatory nations, Poland faced the most immediate threat from Germany at the time. In the event Poland was attacked, France agreed to begin a full mobilization of its military and to launch a full-scale attack within 15 days against the Germans along Germany’s western border, and Britain promised RAF bombing of German military targets. The intervention was offered only in the event of actual military engagements. With vast territories exposed, Poland feared the Germans might seize Polish territory unopposed as they had in Czechoslovakia, giving the British and French a way out of their commitments. Therefore, undermanned, ill-equipped units were rushed to the field and spread hopelessly thin to cover as much ground as possible in order to increase the odds of engagement, and therefore the likelihood of immediate military aid from the French and British.”
Am starting tonight so will be looking forward to chatting about this - some interesting info already from Rick.
Well my copy of No Greater Ally: The Untold Story of Poland's Forces in World War II arrived today. Going to start on that tonight I think - the current one I'm reading on the Baghdad Air Mail is painfully written. Mainly a style issue as it is a repro on a book from the 1920s so things were written differently back then...
Good to have some company, will look forward to chatting with you guys soon then :)
Geevee wrote: "David thank you these are both interesting and eye opening figures that I'd not seen before - I really must read by Timothy Snyder...."GeeVee - It is a difficult read, but at the same time a must read. Some of his discriptions are just heart rending. If someone thought it up, people would believe it. Not just Hitler's crimes, but Stalin's also
I found these figures in regards to German war material sabotaged by Polish forced labour on page 66 quite interesting but wonder how accurate they are:(view spoiler)
We have all read accounts from soldiers saved by a dud artillery shell – you have to wonder how many of those were from these Polish workers?
I have also read accounts of defective shells with notes found inside them by the workers - has anyone else read an account like that?
Have many members started their Polish theme read book yet? If not, don't worry, as this thread will remain open for some time but do try and join us and share some of the stories and interesting facts from your book.
Just got my copy of
down for the theme. And my copy of
just arrived so it may be off to Spain after Poland.
Two excellent puchases Mike! I really do hope you enjoy both books.
Execution of Poles in Kórnik, 20 October 1939:
On pages 77-78 of the book; No Greater Ally, the author talks about how the Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa - AK) captured a German V1 Rocket and managed to get it flown to London - I've never heard that story before, has anyone else?Members of the Armia Krajowa:
by Kenneth K. Koskodan
It's been a busy week, but I've cracked open No Greater Ally: The Untold Story of Poland's Forces in World War II. It's been on my kindle for a few months so I'm glad to have a reason to bump it to the top of my list. Still on chapter one, but I'm enjoying it so far.Rick, I've read lots of stories with duds, but not with notes in them. Interesting.
Hi A.L. Glad to see you joining us for this read, I think you will enjoy the book :)
I am racking my brain to try and remember which book it was that I read about the note in a shell and for some reason I am thinking of a shell that was lodged in a aircraft when it returned to base.
That would be quite the surprise! Wonder if whoever found it could read whatever language it was written in.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "On pages 77-78 of the book; No Greater Ally, the author talks about how the Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa - AK) captured a German V1 Rocket and managed to get it flown to London - I've never hear..."I've found the book to be very readable with some very interesting points and figures quoted. There are also a couple of things that are missing or could have been done better - may be that is down to space.
One thing that is clear is the author's passion for the subject and his wish for his reader to know the sacrifices made (home and abroad) and the impact the Polish forces had.
As for the story on the AK and the V1 (Doodlebug to wartime Britons) I'd not heard that before.
Some other items that caught my eye:
I was aware of the common perception that Poland gave way and was defeated quickly and easily although the Germans' had almost as long a campaign to conquer the country as they did with the Battle of France.
Mr Koskodan clearly shows this not to be the case (i.e. giving way easily)and his telling of the invasion and the Polish forces' plans and actions is good. On page 41 (my edition is paperback Osprey published 2011) he shows the cost in materiel as "The Polish army destroyed 674 German tanks, 319 armoured cars, 195 heavy guns, 285 aircraft and over 11,000 trucks and motorcycles". The human cost to the Third Reich's military machine was 16,000 killed and 32,000 wounded - they lost some 27,000 killed in the six week Low Countries and France campaign.
Mr Koskodan covers the secret society and underground war in the chapter 3: Everything was secret. The paragraphs on education were very interesting as was the figures on page 65 concerning the Kedyw Battalion of the AK (Armia Krajowa) "During the occupation, Kedyw operations succeeded in executing nearly 8000 Nazi criminals within Poland, including 2000 Gestapo agents".
message 77:
by
Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
(last edited Apr 04, 2013 12:53PM)
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Things that are disappointing is the complete lack of coverage on the Polish navy - a missed opportunity to tell or at least give a flavour of their exploits. Only 2 mentions in the whole book (pages 19 & 79) one of which briefly mentions the Bismarck. Nothing on Arctic convoys, wider convoy duty or D-Day (yet and the chapters and index suggest there will be no mention).I also thought the telling of the air war in France was too simple and short. The French fought hard and accounted for a considerable number of Luftwaffe aircraft and crews - I accept his Polish pilots' views to the contrary as that was their experience - but his own coverage on the Poles was too brief and not in the same vein as the preceding chapter on the invasion of Poland.
His coverage of the Battle of Britain was however good but is to some extent better known than the contribution to the battle of France. However, I understand why it is emphasised and that the Poles' influence on tactics, available aircrew and morale is not to be ignored or understated. Sadly, like the wider RAF's Bomber Command the bomber war is covered in too short a detail and for me misses an opportunity to tell a bigger story; perhaps with a couple of examples where gallantry awards were awarded. What Mr Koskodan does tell is excellent and very interesting in detail but more please.
The North African campaign is covered and again provides some good insight into Tobruk. I do take issue though - and by this I don't lessen the Polish contribution - with his comment on page 105, where he says "In one of the final thrusts to push Rommel and the Afrika Korps From North Africa, the Eighth Army launched an attack against Gazala, Libya on December 15th 1941".
Certainly not one of the final thrusts as 1942 saw German and Italian forces move eastwards again and significant battles were fought before El Alamein in October 1942 and on through to Operation Torch and the final battles at Wadi Akarit and El Guettar April/May 1943.
For a very good account, including specific numbers of aircraft deployed, shot-down/damaged and engagements and casualties this is excellent:The Battle Of France Then And Now by Peter D. Cornwell
Hi Geevee, as usual you have raised some very good points. Many of the books covering WW2 that were written up until the 1970's always seemed to write the Polish campaign off as brave & gallant soldiers fighting German tanks with antiquated weapons and of course the cavalry charging the tanks type scenarios. The author has taken the time to show us how incorrect that image was and the figures you supplied certainly highlight the fact that the Polish campaign was not a walk over as it has been presented in many general histories."The Polish army destroyed 674 German tanks, 319 armoured cars, 195 heavy guns, 285 aircraft and over 11,000 trucks and motorcycles". The human cost to the Third Reich's military machine was 16,000 killed and 32,000 wounded - they lost some 27,000 killed in the six week Low Countries and France campaign."
I also totally agree with you in regards to his coverage of the Polish Navy and the Poles in RAF Bomber Command. Like you suggested, a few citations of bravery would have been enough to highlight the role of the Poles in the bombing campaign to satisfy me. I did take some issue with his suggestion that the Poles that fought in the Battle of Britain were the ones that introduced new formations and tactics to RAF Fighter Command. I was under the belief that RAF pilots that fought in the battle for France discovered themselves how out of date their formation was when battling the Luftwaffe and as a result of the fighting over France they adopted the German 'finger four' formation, long before the Poles joined the fight over England. What’s your view on this?
message 81:
by
Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
(last edited Apr 04, 2013 03:58PM)
(new)
Interesting Rick as I think the Poles certainly helped change the tactics - notably 303 Sqn. There are suggestions that Douglas Bader was first in the RAF to change from Vic to finger-four, but this may be legend rather than actual as I can't believe some of the other sqn or flight leaders, especially those with very strong personalities would have been slow to spot this either.Just Googled finger-four and wikipedia and aviation chat rooms suggest the Finns developed it first (as two pairs) and the Poles also used the pair. The main protagonist in the Luftwaffe was Werner Molders. Wonder if Colin Heaton has a view or can shed some light on this??
The Wikipedia article also mentions Bader.
I totally agree with you Geevee that the Poles helped introduce better tactics to the RAF during the Battle of Britain but I am uncertain about when the 'Finger Four' formation was adopted by the RAF and whose idea it was. I don’t believe that the RAF fighter pilots seeing how useless their old Vic formation was in combating the Luftwaffe over France would stick to the same old tired formation. I am sure I read elsewhere that there was a push within the RAF after Dunkirk to change their formation and some tactics. Anyone else have some information they can offer to shed light on the subject?This is the Wikipedia link that Geevee mentioned if anyone is interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger-four
Going back to your comments on the author's failure to mention the Polish Navy during WW2 it would have been interesting to know how large the Polish Navy was at the start of the war and what happened to their vessels - even in an appendix at the end of the book would be enough to satisfy my curiosity.Got this from Wikipedia:
Just on the eve of war, three destroyers — representing most of the major Polish Navy ships - had been sent for safety to the British Isles (Operation Peking). There they fought alongside the Royal Navy. At various stages of the war, the Polish Navy comprised two cruisers and a large number of smaller ships. The Polish navy was given a number of British ships and submarines which would otherwise have been unused due to the lack of trained British crews. The Polish Navy fought with great distinction alongside the other Allied navies in many important and successful operations, including those conducted against the German battleship, Bismarck. During the war the Polish Navy, which comprised a total of 27 ships (2 cruisers, 9 destroyers, 5 submarines and 11 torpedo boats), sailed a total of 1.2 million nautical miles, escorted 787 convoys, conducted 1,162 patrols and combat operations, sank 12 enemy ships (including 5 submarines) and 41 merchant vessels, damaged 24 more (including 8 submarines) and shot down 20 aircraft. 450 seamen out of the over 4,000 who served with the Navy lost their lives in action.
ORP Grom destroyer in the Polish Navy Cruisers: ORP Dragon– Dragoon (British Danae class)
ORP Conrad (British Danae class)
Destroyers: ORP Wicher– Gale (Wicher class) sunk September 1939
ORP Burza– Storm (Wicher class)
ORP Grom– Thunder (Grom class) sunk 1940
ORP Błyskawica– Lightning (Grom class)
ORP Garland (British G class)
ORP Orkan (British M-class destroyer Myrmidion) sunk 1943
ORP Ouragan, sometimes called Huragan– Hurricane (French Bourrasque class)
ORP Piorun– Thunderbolt (British N class)
Escort destroyers: ORP Krakowiak– Cracovian (British Hunt class) 1941–1946
ORP Kujawiak– Kujawian (British Hunt class)
ORP Ślązak– Silesian (British Hunt class)
Submarines: ORP Orzeł – Eagle (Orzeł class) lost 1940
ORP Sęp – Vulture (Orzeł class) interned Sweden
ORP Jastrząb – Hawk (British S class)
ORP Wilk – Wolf (Wilk class) to reserve 1942
ORP Ryś – Lynx (Wilk class) interned Sweden
ORP Żbik – Wildcat (Wilk class) interned Sweden
ORP Dzik – Boar (British U class) 1942–1946
ORP Sokół – Falcon (British U class) 1941–1945
Heavy minelayers: ORP Gryf– Griffin sunk 1939
Light minelayers ("ptaszki"– "Birds"): ORP Jaskółka – Swallow, sunk 1939
ORP Mewa – Seagull
ORP Rybitwa – Tern
ORP Czajka – Lapwing
ORP Żuraw – Crane
ORP Czapla – Heron
Polish River Fleet
This does not include a number of minor ships, transports, merchant-marine auxiliary vessels, and patrol boats. Polish Merchant Navy contributed about 137,000 BRT to Allied shipping; losing 18 ships (with capacity of 76,000 BRT) and over 200 sailors during the war.
I found this statement by Adolf Galland on page 100 of the book; No Greater Ally interesting;(view spoiler)
The statistics quoted by the author on the same page make compelling reading:
(view spoiler)
Some of the German defenders of Monte Cassino - Fallschirmjäger:
Poland victorious at Monte Cassino:
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found these figures in regards to German war material sabotaged by Polish forced labour on page 66 quite interesting but wonder how accurate they are:[spoilers removed]
We have all read accoun..."
Yes, French forces laborers working on the V-2 did the same at the Nordhausen rocket factory. They left notes inside the fins hoping Allied intelligence would gather detaled data on the program.
Geevee wrote: "Interesting Rick as I think the Poles certainly helped change the tactics - notably 303 Sqn. There are suggestions that Douglas Bader was first in the RAF to change from Vic to finger-four, but th..."Hi Colin, not sure if you saw my post (No81) and if in your interviews and research the RAF's adoption of finger-four in place of the vic came up.
The chapter on Poles under Soviet Command is very interesting and on page 184/185 Mr Koskodan quotes these figures: (view spoiler).This is a chapter in the book that really should be much larger as I am sure many reading the book will find this aspect very interesting.
That's true Geevee, in fact it could be a book by it's self. Hmmm, maybe I should start looking for one :)
Geevee wrote: "Interesting Rick as I think the Poles certainly helped change the tactics - notably 303 Sqn. There are suggestions that Douglas Bader was first in the RAF to change from Vic to finger-four, but th..."Moelders did in fact create the finger four, prior to the Battle of Brunette. he usewd the two pairs of fighters (rotte) and created the "schwarm". This allowed for greater attack as well as defensive capabilities, hence the great bloodbath against republican forces in Spain. Likewise, the Poles experienced the method, and later the British during the Battle of France. Do not know if Bader was the first, but they adapted quickly as they lost fighters at a rate of 7 to 1. The "schwarm" also allowed for better visual confirmation of victories.
Thanks for that extra information Colin in regards to the 'Finger Four' formation, much appreciated.
Some of the details of how the Poles were treated by the Russians in the chapter: 'Pardon From A Death Sentence' (page 106+) makes sad reading: "In one camp near Kolyma, 20,000 Poles worked in lead mines. Twenty were known to have survived."
On a side note some members might find this information in regards to Wojtek, the Polish 'soldier' bear, quite interesting:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojtek_(...
For those members who want to try more detailed information on Polish forces during WW2 you could try this site, heaps of great information on books and films covering Poland during WW2:http://www.kresy-siberia.com/books-fi...
This is one book that may be one to get for a few of us:
by Władysław AndersDescription:
Originally published in 1949 and first reprint by Battery Press in 1981, this book describes the political conflicts which marked the birth of the unit in Russian POW camps in 1942, its training in Iraq under British supervision, and the heavy combat operations in Italy from the battle of Monte Cassino to victory at the River PO. Also covered is the monumental task of the Polish government in exile to find new homes for its men after the Russian occupation of their homeland.
Some other books of note for further reading in case anyone is interested:
by Evan McGilvray
by Evan McGilvray
by Allen Paul
I found this information on page 132 about how the Polish Army managed to replace it's losses whilst fighting up Italy's boot quite interesting:(view spoiler)
I don't recall having read that before, has anyone else?
Colin wrote: "Geevee wrote: "Interesting Rick as I think the Poles certainly helped change the tactics - notably 303 Sqn. There are suggestions that Douglas Bader was first in the RAF to change from Vic to fing..."Thanks Colin - appreciate the info (knew you'd have spoken to people).
message 100:
by
Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
(new)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this information on page 132 about how the Polish Army managed to replace it's losses whilst fighting up Italy's boot quite interesting:[spoilers removed]
I don't recall having read that..."
Rick this was new to me too, and much the same the author states as happened on the Eastern Front too I note.
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Hi folks - with only a few days to go I've got my copy from the library and and looking forward to reading this. I have read a bit on the Polish contribution to WWII before, including the air war in France in 1940, the Battle of Britain, North Africa & Italy plus NW Europe and of course Arnhem.
I am hoping this book will add more to this.