A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion

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Jon Snow's Fate....(spoilers!)

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message 1: by Elizabeth (new)

Elizabeth (lchacha) | 3 comments Do you think Jon Snow is really dead? What are your theories?

I can respect and appreciate GM's boldness in killing off so many beloved characters, but I do not think I would be able to get past Jon's death.


message 2: by Leslie T. (new)

Leslie T. (lat0403) | 4 comments No, I think there are certain characters too integral to the story to kill and I think he's one of them. That said, I have no idea what's going to happen to him. I just don't think he's dead.


message 3: by Amber (last edited Dec 31, 2012 10:02AM) (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments I think their are a lot of ways for him to be alive or come back.

I wouldn't put it past GRRM to kill his ass. But at the same time, I think he might just want to up the struggle of Jon's character.

Plus, if Jon is Prince that Was Promised or whatever, he does need to be reborn. I think it's most likely a lead up to something like that. Though it could also be a way of getting rid of a character thats been distracting from the real PtwP. (I like when books take some crazy ass turn like that)

Anyway, I don't think Jon's dead personally. Even if his body died he'd still get a second life as he is a warg and really, his main warg isn't even that far away in spirit terms. Plus, from my understanding warging into Ravens isn't especially difficult either.

Not to mention Melisandre could potentially have the same powers as Thoros of Myr. Or even Jon could be turned into a Wight.

If GRRM wants to make him Azor Ahai or whatever counterpart to Dany, he could potentially have him born again in Fire by having Melisandre breath life back into him.

I don't know, but theirs so many ways to save his ass I doubt he is really dead.


message 4: by [deleted user] (last edited Dec 31, 2012 10:46AM) (new)

If Melisandre saves him from death, he'll want to go south with her against the Boltons. By this time he will think that Stannis made a mistake by not bringing her along to Blackwater Bay, so they're a team now. Maybe he won't be a fanatic like Stannis, but he'll be convinced that she's useful against his enemies. And she is using him.

The Watch doesn't want him anymore and I'm assuming that part of his life is done.

Amber wrote: "If GRRM wants to make him Azor Ahai or whatever counterpart to Dany, he could potentially have him born again in Fire by having Melisandre breath life back into him."

Or a fire vs. fire deathmatch between Dany and Mel.


message 5: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments That might be interesting. Though I think Dany might sympathasize with Melisandre. Since she is the product of slavery.


message 6: by [deleted user] (new)

Amber wrote: "That might be interesting. Though I think Dany might sympathasize with Melisandre. Since she is the product of slavery."

True, but Dany has a "totally different head" when it comes to religion, to use an old expression. She's indifferent at best. Melisandre wants a Constantine to give her religion the official status and coercive power of the state. And if that happens there's a whole new war: the Faith Militant vs. the Iron Throne. I realize this is just fan fiction, but I think it's a possibility for Westeros if the story went this way, and it's fun to speculate.

If Jon and Melisandre are together then Stannis is being written out and Ramsay wasn't lying, it seems to me.


message 7: by Elizabeth (last edited Jan 01, 2013 08:30AM) (new)

Elizabeth (lchacha) | 3 comments The Watch seems to have formed a habit of killing off its leader when they do not like him. Someone needs to kick their asses.

If he does survive, I see him still being with The Watch and making big changes.

I do not see Jon being a partner with Melisandre. He does not like or trust her.


message 8: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments I think that would be extremely interesting as well Eryk, even if it is speculative at best, it'd be interesting for sure. Though I have to say, I think GRRM might need a few more books to add in that storyline.

Or maybe he could just crush our souls and have it end tragically with (something I consider far worse) a religious leadership over Westeros.

Also @ Elizabeth, we've seen how being brought back from the dead can change a person. I don't think Jon will feel nearly as adverse to Melisandre if she saves his life.


Riza (Pages and Coffee Cups) (pagesandcc) | 14 comments Leslie T. wrote: "No, I think there are certain characters too integral to the story to kill and I think he's one of them. That said, I have no idea what's going to happen to him. I just don't think he's dead."

or at least, not gone. Since Martin said that there'll be more about the whitewalkers in the coming books...but I think Bran would handle all (almost) that. >.< i just can't imagine Jon being a wight or something. It's just too...ugh. Hard to imagine, but you can't ignore the possibility.


message 10: by Amber (last edited Jan 02, 2013 09:00AM) (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Not all wights are bad, look at Cold Hands.
Obviously some of the White Walkers are sentient.

Honestly, for some reason, since they're first introduced, I've always thought their might be a connection between the White Walkers and the Starks and something to do with the Crypts at Winterfell. Just haven't really worked it all out yet. So I hope we do get more info on the Wights and all that, so I can better peice together such a theory.


message 11: by Jeremy (new)

Jeremy Macdonald | 2 comments So i just finished the book not 60 mins ago and i do not believe jon to be dead. I think this was a way to get him out of the nights watch and back to where he belongs in winterfell


message 12: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments It is so sad if Snow is dead. The whole Stark family went to $hiet. I don't know if I hate RR Martin or I love him more lol. I'm so confused right now that I think I need counseling. I'm still mad at the end of the Dance. I'm glad I found this group, it serves as a "fix" to my addiction until book 6 comes out.


message 13: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Riza wrote: "Leslie T. wrote: "No, I think there are certain characters too integral to the story to kill and I think he's one of them. That said, I have no idea what's going to happen to him. I just don't th..."

Hi. There was that one mysterious Watch brother who help Sam the Slayer thru the caves under the wall. He seems to be dead but friendly. Maybe Jon would become like that.


message 14: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Leslie T. wrote: "No, I think there are certain characters too integral to the story to kill and I think he's one of them. That said, I have no idea what's going to happen to him. I just don't think he's dead."

The way Martin has been killing characters I'm not surprised Jon is dead.


message 15: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Jon being dead wouldn't surprise me either J.

He killed off plenty of awesome characters. If I hadn't read the spoiler on the Red Wedding, I never would have seen that coming.

Though I do stand by the idea only his body would be dead. He has a second life coming at the very least. Maybe Bran will find him and help him afterward.


message 16: by Kenneth (new)

Kenneth Geary (kennethhayes) During an interview GRRM was asked why he killed Jon his response was "Oh, you think he's dead do you?"

Of course he could just be screwing with us


message 17: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments LOL. GRRM is evil.

If I were a famous author, I'd be just like him though, so can't blame him.


message 18: by Juliane (new)

Juliane (DisgruntledPostalWorker) | 8 comments Jon is my fav character and I'm pretty sure he isn't dead.. At least I hope not.. I think he is Ice and Dany is Fire .. It makes sense to me especially if he is L+R son... And I hope that he is!!! Damn u GRRM


message 19: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Bleck - I hope that he is not.

LOL! It would just bring me great satisfaction to see so many peoples dreams crushed at one time.

...maybe thats kind of sadistic. :/

Damn You GRRM! (indeed!)


message 20: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Kenneth wrote: "During an interview GRRM was asked why he killed Jon his response was "Oh, you think he's dead do you?"

Of course he could just be screwing with us"


Martin is evil. I'm gonna need counseling if I don't get started on a book 6 lol. I mean, he has killed characters we all loved. I feel like I'm in love with an abuser but I want more even if its bad for me lol.

Just don't kill the "unburnt, storm born, mother of dragons" that will tear me up.


message 21: by [deleted user] (new)

If anything happens to Arya, Martin will need a Faceless Man for a bodyguard.


message 22: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Eryk wrote: "If anything happens to Arya, Martin will need a Faceless Man for a bodyguard."

Oh yes my Arya. She touched my heart. She was out there all by herself, surviving so brave. Watched her daddy die. That girl is my hero. Her and needle " with the pointy end" lol


message 23: by Kati (new)

Kati  | 27 comments I do love her. He can't kill any more of the Stark's wolves. That would break my heart.


message 24: by Rahul Nath (new)

Rahul Nath (cultofpersonality) | 181 comments Maeve ~Valar Morghulis~ wrote: "That's wierd, because (please don't kill me) Dany is the one person I've been hoping would die since book one. The girl just rubs me the wrong way!"



I'm with you on this one now. Die Dany Die!!!!


message 25: by [deleted user] (new)

Rahul wrote: "Die Dany Die!!!!"

I like the character but the vapid TV actress and her tea-sipping accent, not so much. Gods, in that climactic scene at the end of season one, the lizard on her shoulder had to do ALL the acting.


message 26: by Rahul Nath (new)

Rahul Nath (cultofpersonality) | 181 comments Tea sipping accent haha XD I liked her initially, later I feel Martin started making her too perfect. And the actress was pretty but not much of a performer I agree.


message 27: by Maggie (last edited Jan 03, 2013 09:38PM) (new)

Maggie (lacr1mation) Well, if you subscribe to the R + L = J theory, there is NO way he is dead.
I think Lord Snow will be part of the 3 dragon riders & imo, AA will be split into 3 people. Dany, Jon & Tyrion. I'm still working out the Tyrion theory so, don't shoot it down yet. BUT, he could very well be a Targ. (pls note, this is Jax's wonderful theory not mine. But, I do believe it.)
Oh, Dany is meh @ best. She was cool in the 1st book but, now zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I dislike the theories that she & Jon are going to marry. GAG!


message 28: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Eryk wrote: "If anything happens to Arya, Martin will need a Faceless Man for a bodyguard."


Amen to that.

Arya and Jaime Lannister pretty much make the story for me.

Could definitely do with less Dany myself. Her character bores me beyond belief. I'd dig her death. Which means in the end it will probably be her and Theon ruling the world - you know, since I dislike their characters most.


message 29: by Rahul Nath (new)

Rahul Nath (cultofpersonality) | 181 comments And suddenly we all hate Dany. Happy new year :D


message 30: by Rahul Nath (new)

Rahul Nath (cultofpersonality) | 181 comments Maggie wrote: "Well, if you subscribe to the R + L = J theory, there is NO way he is dead.
I think Lord Snow will be part of the 3 dragon riders & imo, AA will be split into 3 people. Dany, Jon & Tyrion. I'm stil..."





Tyrion a Targ? Well, seems far fetched but would love to know more of the theory.


message 31: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments Rahul wrote: "And suddenly we all hate Dany. Happy new year :D"

XD

We are all obviously fans of characters with more internal conflict.


message 32: by Rahul Nath (new)

Rahul Nath (cultofpersonality) | 181 comments That is true. And all the sympathy I had for her due to the way she was treated by Viserys is all gone now. I just want her to drop dead or have lesser chapters or face some giant loss or embarassment :D Kill off one of her dragons maybe. Grey Wind and Lady died, she can afford losing a dragon.


message 33: by Nermin (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments I don't hate Dany but i admit her chapters, all those harpy, Mereeen, Yunkai, essos, hizdarh stuff bore me to death when i was reading the fifth book.


message 34: by Gulen (new)

Gulen | 7 comments Narmin wrote: "I don't hate Dany but i admit her chapters, all those harpy, Mereeen, Yunkai, essos, hizdarh stuff bore me to death when i was reading the fifth book."

I just wish her to return Westeros with her dragons and do whatwever she is meant to do, really i do not stand her adventures(!!)in Essos anymore. I hope they might unite with Tyrion and things get better but no of course no, she just got in more trouble...


message 35: by Prtsh (new)

Prtsh (mutated_insane) | 9 comments Why does he have to kill off every lovable character in the series?its too much to digest i mean reading it we find ourselves to be a part of house Stark(i'm speaking of myself here you can choose whichever you want :P)nd then they just keep dying..its sad :(


message 36: by Rahul Nath (new)

Rahul Nath (cultofpersonality) | 181 comments Dany's chapters have been boring me to death since book 2. I see many people find Bran's chapters boring but I find them fascinating. Dany on the other hand....zzzzzzz.


Even then, I had a soft spot for her, seeing as she didn't have the best childhood you can hope for and being in the predicament she was, I kinda rooted for her too. As the books have passed though, I have simply started getting irritated. She is way beyond annoying now and I go through her chapters in thrice the time I would take for any other POV character. Just die already!!


message 37: by Natalia (new)

Natalia (small_god) I don't know what you're talking about, GRRM kills lovable chracters? Ned was as dull as ditchwater. The only character I was devastated to see dead was the Hound. And I'm not even sure he is dead.


message 38: by Gulen (new)

Gulen | 7 comments Natalia wrote: "I don't know what you're talking about, GRRM kills lovable chracters? Ned was as dull as ditchwater. The only character I was devastated to see dead was the Hound. And I'm not even sure he is dead."

What about Robb? By the way i also do not think Hound is dead,too. He is an important character and i believe if GRRM decided to kill him he would wrote the death of Hound detailly within a chapter.


message 39: by Nermin (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments Interesting, because when I revisit the first book I usually read Ned POV chapters. Ned may be honorable to a fault, but he was truly a good man, that's not something I can say about most men in ASoIaF series.


message 40: by Feras (new)

Feras (fhma) | 4 comments No way Jon is dead. He has a role to play still. What with being the son of Targaryen and all.


message 41: by Natalia (new)

Natalia (small_god) To be honest, I feel indifferent about Robb.

Tyrion, Jaime and Petyr are the only characters I care about at the moment. I'm not fond of Sansa, but I don't want her dead. And I hope Theon will live - I think he understood certain things. He's such a poor creature. :(


message 42: by Nermin (last edited Jan 04, 2013 12:28AM) (new)

Nermin  (narminstaley) | 280 comments Feras wrote: "No way Jon is dead. He has a role to play still. What with being the son of Targaryen and all."

Yeah and if Jon turns out to be dead, i won't see the point of his character. i mean why create Jon Snow in the first place if he's going to be murdered by some retarded dudes for no reason before doing anything important.


message 43: by Natalia (new)

Natalia (small_god) Narmin wrote: "Yeah and if Jon turns out to be, i won't see the point of his character. i mean why create Jon Snow in the first place if he's going to be murdered by some retarded dudes for no reason before doing..."

This is life and life is not always fair. ;) But I don't think Jon's dead.


message 44: by Gulen (new)

Gulen | 7 comments Natalia wrote: "To be honest, I feel indifferent about Robb.

Tyrion, Jaime and Petyr are the only characters I care about at the moment. I'm not fond of Sansa, but I don't want her dead. And I hope Theon will li..."


After Dance of Dragons, i've become fond of Theon, and i read his sample chapter from book 6. Now I believe he will survive too:D


message 45: by Woolfie (last edited Jan 04, 2013 05:14AM) (new)

Woolfie Silvanus (nightlightknight) | 392 comments I wonder if it will be possible for Bran to 'see' Jon's death through his greenseer connection somehow. We've already seen how he can 'warg' into Hodor, might there be a way for him to do likewise for Jon, if he is in fact physically dead?


message 46: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Narmin wrote: "I don't hate Dany but i admit her chapters, all those harpy, Mereeen, Yunkai, essos, hizdarh stuff bore me to death when i was reading the fifth book."

Although her adventures with these annoying Harpy in Mereen and Yunkai lords and crap as me wanting to chock GRRM even more I still have hope for her character. She was sold to a savage who raped her into loving him. Then she had to see him to his death while she lost her brother and then had to lead a whole bunch of savages who would easily kill her. Her character was growing and developing into a REAL queen for her age. Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, Storm Born, Blood of the Dragon. It doesn't get any more interesting then that specially after she hatched those eggs lol. I really want to see her out of Mereen and heading for Westeros with her Nephew and go take what's theirs and have the dragons eat Cersei, the Bolton bastard and the Freys. BBQ feast in Westeros and Robert Aryan.... I have that fu..ing kid!!!

Yea that tea drinking accent gets annoying, but I love what her character could be, just get her out of Mereen if that Khal doesn't kill her and the dragon first lol


message 47: by J (last edited Jan 04, 2013 06:33AM) (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Gulen wrote: "Natalia wrote: "To be honest, I feel indifferent about Robb.

Tyrion, Jaime and Petyr are the only characters I care about at the moment. I'm not fond of Sansa, but I don't want her dead. And I ho..."


Theon is a creep. His dumb ass should have never left Robs side. I think things would have turned out differently at the red wedding, perhaps. Then again GRRM loves to kill our favorite characters. And Catelyn still alive WHY!!!!!!??????

I don't understand why Theon still alive and what role can he possibly play in anything. Asha is twice the man Theon will ever hope to be. She is "iron born" and has paid the "iron price" times over.


message 48: by Natalia (new)

Natalia (small_god) J wrote: "Then again GRRM loves to kill our favorite characters. "

"Our"? Not mine.


message 49: by J (new)

J Nevin | 139 comments Natalia wrote: "J wrote: "Then again GRRM loves to kill our favorite characters. "

"Our"? Not mine."


In the general sense without pointing to any specific character. I'm sure he has killed at the least ONE of your favorites. He has a few of mine already. I was getting to like the Red Viper until the Mountain finished him.


message 50: by Amber (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 835 comments J wrote: "Narmin wrote: "I don't hate Dany but i admit her chapters, all those harpy, Mereeen, Yunkai, essos, hizdarh stuff bore me to death when i was reading the fifth book."

Although her adventures with ..."


I don't know - I don't really consider Dany and Kahl Drogo's sexual relationship as a rape.
If that's a rape, then every highborn lady in Westeros has been and is being raped. For the culture of the world, these arent rapes, they're duties.

In today's world - I guess I could see your point. But people still have arranged marriages today and you are kidding yourself if you think they are all bad.

I don't really care if Dany dies or not, but I get annoyed with her and how people act like she's suffered SO much. When we meet her she's been living in rich peoples houses for free her entire life. Getting fat off others labor. Sure she suffers cruelty from Viserys, but cruelty from a single person is hardly comparable to what others have suffered in the series. Her brother was no Gregor Clegane.

Her greatest lament is that they had to sell her mothers crown when they were poor. Oh god! How horrible. Then she had an arranged marriage - just like every other freakin' woman in the whole damn series. Big whoop.

Almost every time we see Dany suffering in the series now - its her own fault. Every action has its equal and opposite reaction. So I really don't pity her at all.

Plus, I think she's a ho now and she hardly spends any time with her dragons at all. Children my ass. She spends most of her time thinking about Daario.

I think if GRRM did kill her off, I'd be happiest with Asha Greyjoy putting a hatchet in her skull. Iron Price bitch.


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