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message 1: by Shimi (new)

Shimi | 1 comments Ok, Please forgive me if someone already mentioned these points. I was discussing the books with my wife and we had an interesting thought.

You need to make a few assumptions first, any of which might be false.

Our first assumption is that Denna's sponsor is someone connected with the Chandrian. It stands to reason since to date, each time the Chandrian strikes Denna is in close proximity and always because she has been meeting with her sponsor.

I don't want to focus on that point too much, but there is much more there that is up for discussion.

Assuming though that her sponsor is of the Chandrian, then when she suddenly expresses interest in WMF about various types of magic and then continues to discuss something she heard (pp 152 in my copy) about a type of magic that when you write something down it becomes true, we have to pause to think where she heard this from.

"What if someone told you they knew of a type of magic that did more than that? A magic where you sort of wrote things down, and whatever you write became true?... Then, if someone saw the writing, even if they couldn't read it, it would be true for them. They'd think a certain thing, or act a certain waydepending on what the writing said."

Is it possible that her sponsor, someone connected to the Chandrian, told her of this magic?

And if so, we need to discuss the Chandrian's obsession with controlling anything printed about themselves. Maybe they are controlling the flow of things that mention them because it somehow has an effect on them. Maybe the existence of a text or picture, depicting the Chandrian in any way, changes or alters them, something which would be a threat that they had to control.

Continue this thought into the trilogy itself, Kvothe is currently undergoing writing his story and the story of the Chandrian. It could be that this very act could unravel the Chandrian in some way.

And finally, assuming this is all close to the mark, beyond the doors of stone could be the very books that Denna spoke about, books whose existence cause what was written in them to be true. Something like that would need to be protected and sealed off, and it would be somewhat fitting that it be behind doors of stone, since by making it true whatever is written in those books is permanent (written in stone).

It's a stretch, but I had to share it and see what everyone else thought.

message 2: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
It is a stretch, but I do feel the assumptions you've made aren't all that off base.

I've never read this theory before and I have to admit I quite like it.

I mean, I'm absolutely against the idea that behind these doors all we're going to find is Iax. I know a lot about people might think that would be cool, but I think it would be lame. I don't give two craps about Iax, he appears in the story maybe 3 times. All I care about are the Chandrian and how all it connects to them and Kvothe.

So I really like this theory. It could also explain where some of the books that are missing are going and why Master Lorren is against Kvothe looking into them.

I mean, it is speculative, but I don't consider it too far reaching as far as where the story is headed and how the characters have been portrayed. It really could add up to something like that.

message 3: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
That's neat. I don't see a lot of pointers to it in the text, but I'll admit I never looked for any, 'cause, y'know, I wasn't thinking about it.

I do wanna point out that the written magic/doors of stone portion of the theory in no way necessitates the chandrian/sponsor portion. The other, or any other, really, side could as easily be pursuing that goal.

And, to be honest, there's a really simple explanation for the Seven popping up when Denna sings if she's singing about them...

message 4: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I think it would be awesome if The Chandrian killed Denna's parents just like they killed Kvothe's

message 5: by Scans (new)

Scans | 64 comments Have there been any updates as to when this book is coming out? The wait is KILLING me

message 6: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
They recently did an Author's Guide for Pat on Sword & Lazer. They said the tentative date was someday.


I wish Pat would post an excerpt though. I've been drooling over GRRM's literally all day.

message 7: by Anthony (new)

Anthony Jr. (anthonymbriggsjr) | 4 comments The last update I heard was sometime between 2013 and possibly 2018 ;)

message 8: by Dewi (new)

Dewi | 1 comments some very good ideas there. I like the sound of a magic where things wrote down can become true. it would explain the chandrian's* supposed obsession with removing all tangible information about themselves.

message 9: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
I like the idea of it. But it would kind of be a massive kick in the magic system of the 4Cs. There's naming and then sympathy/science magic etc, it would throw the power of naming right on its ass if there was something more powerful I reckon. Also, there's been no mention of it in the history we know, Lanre...

message 10: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments Tdheko. the seven words relate to Eldodins 'there are seven words to make a woman love you'. K&D often speak to one another in 7 words.

There already is some premice for writing down magic (though not what D is looking for): Sygaldry.

There has been spec about the writing down magic being Yllish knots.

after this D plays with her har a lot, K later recognising what some o the knots mean. Lovely. Dont tak to me. His behaviour is moderated by what they say, and before he knows the meanings, after he has noticed her fiddling he reacts out of sync with the convo.

Ive suspected that there are books-or at least knowledge-behind the four plate door. I quite ike the idea of it being the written magic.

It adds a poignancy to the epithet above the entrance to the archives.

It's also worth noting that this notion gets repeated in K's mock story of The Chronicler.

message 11: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Sygaldry has already been discussed in the book, initially when Denna was asking about it.

I don't really get what you mean about him reacting to her, the sentence after the Yllish knots. But I agree, speculation is pretty high about those pesky knots, wish we knew more!

Maybe there is all the literature about the Amyr behind the 4 plate door...

message 12: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments Well it was the wee hours of the morn and there are quite a few typos there.

Is that what made you not understand, or have you/this forum not explored the knots D wears in her hair?

After she visits Yll K often notes her playing with her hair. He is drawn to the knots within it. There are instances where, after he has noticed, his behaviour/convo direction takes a significant turn. The one I can think of off the top of my head: In Severn, her song, he sees the knots, and says something like 'I said things I never normally would have'. (paraphrase!) His honesty is near uncontrollable. It is supposed that the knot she has woven is something like 'Truth'. Much later when he returns to uni and makes a study of Yllish knots he starts to recognise them. She is embarrased when he reads 'Lovely.'. After they argue she intentionally weaves 'Dont talk to me' knowing he can read it. He doesnt talk.

It seems these knots are the writing magic she was looking for, or at least a writing magic in and of themselves. One that speaks to the sleeping mind.

Then of course one has to wonder if K's sleeping mind read and understood the knots on the Lockless box.

The writing magic, knots, travel to Yll are some of her payment in exhange with her patron. Things that are part of the pursuit of her goal.

message 13: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments What was your point about sygaldry? How does it matter where it came? The fact is there is already an example of something written that bears power.

message 14: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
My point was that it's nothing like the magic Denna is looking for.

I hadn't noticed the Yllish knots changing the conversation before. I'll have to go back and look, well done! I just assumed she had recently learnt the 'lovely' knot but there's no reason she couldn't have been using them throughout the books. That's a really interesting suggestion.

message 15: by Jessica (new)

Jessica Butler | 14 comments The "lovely" knot also speaks to how Kvothe remembers her as beautiful, but when pressed, Bast recalls thinking her very plain or average looking.

message 16: by Speaker (last edited Jan 28, 2013 01:48AM) (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments So this is slightly off topic but it is a refernce to the main thread. I think there is significant evidence to suggest Denna's patron is none other than Brendon. I think his character is presumed to be kind helping K in the Maer's court, but we know he is cunning,secretive and even ruthless from his interations with K. Also, I think it is no coincedence that when K was collecting histories Brendon is mentioned to conduct rituils. The vint's dont really understand magic but obviously ritual are there misinterpretaion of something. Plus we know Denna's patron is in the court based on conversation with K in Serven low sp w/e. To further expand on this theory the cyaeth tells K staying in the mayor's court will lead him to the Chan... If he is in the court obviosly Brendon is having his rituil tak conversations with him. Plus we already know Denna patron can lead them to the Chan ie Trebon. So with all these things in mind and the fact that PR made a point to bring up the papers Brendon was in multiple times its safe to assume at the very least Brendon is much more then meets the eye....

message 17: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
I really like how Pat managed to provide a handful of solid clues pointing to several characters possibly being Denna's patron, all of which are basically non-contradictory and mutually exclusive at the same time. And that the story can work if he's related to the Seven, the Amyr, or even non-aligned.

message 18: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Bredon* :P

message 19: by [deleted user] (new)

And finally, assuming this is all close to the mark, beyond the doors of stone could be the very books that Denna spoke about, books whose existence cause what was written in them to be true. Something like that would need to be protected and sealed off, and it would be somewhat fitting that it be behind doors of stone, since by making it true whatever is written in those books is permanent (written in stone).

In WMF it actually suggests what is behin the doors of stone. I cant remember which but either Felurian or the Cthaeth (sp?) says it

message 20: by Amber, Master Sympathist (last edited Jan 29, 2013 10:01AM) (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Felurian suggests the Shaper who Stole the Moon is beyond the Doors of Stone.

Whether that's to be taken literally is still up for discussion. LOL. It has been argued the doors of stone could be synonymous with Doors of Death.

Though it's difficult to say - doors come up a lot in this story.

also @Ben - the Cthaeh doesn't say staying with Maer's court will lead Kvothe to the Chandrian, it says it will lead him to the door of the Amyr. Which is somehow meant to be a joke...Though I agree, it's possible Bredon is Denna's patron. He at least, meets all the requirements.

Though He isn't my favorite for the position, I can't deny the possiblity.

*edit: I'm fairly certain that Haliax at the very least, has little to do with, and little concern with doors.

"No door shall bar my passing" just makes me think that.

message 21: by Speaker (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments I just double checked Amber and you are correct. I didnt remember it returned the conversation back to the Amyr right before it devulged that piece. Either way though, what better a place for a Chan spy to be. Especially had the Maer and Kvothe relationship continued to grow, Brendon most definately being taking an interest in how close the Maer was unknowingly to the Amyr.

This might be a stretch but Brendon said he was once more interested in courtly affairs. I simple wonder if that might have coincided with the Maers searching for the Amyr... Just specualtion ofcourse.

To comment on the Maer being Denna's patron, the only speculation I feel I can bring to this argument, as I havent thought about it before, is why would an closet Amyr freak suddenly shift to pro Chanderian. I mention this because I feel its general accepted patron=prochan, where as nothing we see about the maer leads me to this conclusion. "Greater Good" yes "destroyers of the known world"....not so much.
Anyway, Amber, Ive read you thoughts on the relativity of morals based on perspcetive, but thats a convo form days past that is futile to continue as it is given and solves none of our questions.

message 22: by Speaker (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments whoops, I just realized that last part was from a different thread...
sorry guys ;)

message 23: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Yah that whole Ctheah part is a ridiculous amount of information to remember. I get that shit mixed up all the time. LOL.

Bredon is certainly an interesting character, he's especially fun to speculate about, since he is kinda random. I know he wasn't in the original manuscript, but I think he could still have a purpose in the story. From what I understand Auri wasn't in it either and she's one of the most intriguing characters!

AS far as that stuff on the Maer - I think that's a fair point. (Thank god, I have an argument against that now) I can't remember how the Maer felt about the Amyr though, I'll need to read that part again. Interest isn't necessarily good intentions, know what I mean? But I do remember him having an intense interest in them. Just been a while since I gave Vintas a look over.
Always found that part a bit boring myself LOL.

message 24: by Speaker (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments I really feel like the main question along the Maer's line would be:

1 Is the patron in fact connected to the Chan?

2 If yes and if we assume he is the Maer, what motive would lead him to steal his own money and then also have Kvothe try to stop the bandits? Bare in mind, that would mean he would know the bandits were lead by Ferule.

Anyway,in my mind that scenario just doesnt seem to hold and water. Unless someone can come up with valid answers to those questions, then I dont imagine I can take that argument very seriously

message 25: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
I don't think Denna's patron needs to be connected with the Chandrian. One explanation for them being near her is that they're working in conjunction. Another is that they're trying to catch her.

message 26: by Speaker (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments you know Ill agree that her patron not need to have a direct tie to the Chandrian, but he certainly seems to know alot about them and is seeking them out actively. Plus with Denna's song we can infer he has slightly different views on Halix.

message 27: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
True - I would say, Denna's patron has a clear interest in the Chandrian, and is likely using her as the pawn vs himself.

Since he's not saying any chandrian names or anything and he is making her say them, he will remain safe, where as she would not.

(That is if saying there names even actually draws them to a character...which I'm not totally positive about myself)

I'm going to ask the old man these questions...since it was his theory LOL. I think he had some answer about the bandits, but I can't remember it very well now. I think it was something about, maybe Kvothe was never meant to succeed in his mission.
Or maybe the Maer hires the bandits so he can raise taxes or gain part of the money stolen to fund his secret amyr projects.

Very conspiracy theory LOL.

message 28: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
I got the feeling that Kvothe succeeded on an impossible task re: the bandits. It was such an aimless task without good intel. He just wanted K out the way, he says as much in the book.

message 29: by Speaker (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments For the same of argument, I'm going to comment on the character of the Maer based on my real life experiences.

He always struck me as something of an uptight anal commander from my time n the military. He is most definitely ruthless, no argument there. But it is all in response to preventing criminal activity. I forget the name of the device he hung outside of the gates of his city with the thief in it, however even though it was extreme it was still a punishment against wrongful activity. Seems more like telhu and amyr brand of justice, or the strictness of military person which I'm lol very familiar with. It doesn't mean he is bad per say... Just a hard@$$ that doesn't take any crap...

message 30: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I think it was called a Gibbet...not totally positive though.

Anyway - I sorta always got that impression as well. Not that Maer is a bad guy, just that he is a ruthless enemy of anyone who might want to be involved in criminal activity. Actually quite like the Amyr, he does what he does, For the Greater Good, even though it does appear to be torture...

Anyway I'm willing to consider that's not the case, but have to admit it's the first impression I took away from the reading. In question about the bandits, it's been brought to my attention that when Kvothe does succeed in defeating them, he finds a chest of gold that belongs to the Maer...when supposedly these bandits were stealing from townfolk and travellers on the road...
I may need to review that part to make any real conclusion but, Does anyone else see that as weird?

message 31: by Speaker (new)

Speaker (Speaker4theDead) | 34 comments Actually, Amber, the bandits were stealing from the taxes collectors appointed by the Maer. So them having an official chest that would belong to him seems to go with the job description lol. IDK I mean if they didnt have that and other things then what would prove they were even in the Maer employ.

message 32: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Oh really - sheesh, sometimes I just totally forget stuff.

I'm trying to read through the Vintas part again right now so maybe I can pull something out of it.

message 33: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
I agree with you guys, his character totally defines the word 'ruthless'

message 34: by [deleted user] (new)

@Amber You areright it was a gibbet the Maer had the man hung in.

message 35: by Kevin (new)

Kevin Harrigan | 1 comments And now for the "actual" answer. Please note that the only reason i thought of this is because i am smarter than all of you put together. That is the truth, unadulterated... The doors of stone are Dena's labias. Thats why she won't let kvothe in. She's embarrassed that there are several dead people hanging out inside of her vagina. Think about it...the last thing that you would want to do b4 performing cunnilingus on a girl is have to introduce yourself to a whole gaggle of strangers. Plus the fact that Kvothe has an ego and if even one of those people tried to give him pointers all hell would break loose. Just kidding, i think the doors of stone are death and in order to finish his tale Kvothe will have to die, thats why he is "waiting to die"

message 36: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (ivorydoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Well, I like that last idea.

I don't know about all that vagina stuff....

message 37: by Brandon (new)

Brandon | 74 comments Never read this theory till now and quite like the direction. As soon as I read it I thought about the scene where Kote tells the story about the Chronicler and how he can write things down that become true. I never really noticed but he jokes about this kind of magic to get back at chronicler, but the type of magic Denna was asking about. I always just accepted it as a good joke since chronicler is a scribe, but maybe he was just substituting some names and facts. Guess I will need to look at that part again to see if there is more to it.

message 38: by [deleted user] (new)

Hey, I've moved this thread to Theories since that's a better suited folder for this topic.

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