Dirty Red (Love Me with Lies, #2) Dirty Red discussion


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Anybody else questioning the timeline?

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Enzo I've been bugging a GR friend incessantly about this. I'm going really bonkers thinking about it.
Leah's trial ends in September.
4 months later, around January, she is pregnant and attempts suicide.
In May or possibly June, she goes to Rome attempting to get pregnant with Caleb.
You would naturally assume that she is 4-5months pregnant in Rome.
BUT NO, when Estella is born, it's been 18months since her trial.
That puts Estella's birth at around March.
This then places her conception at around May and June. Possibly conceived in Rome???
So many questions surrounding this:
1. Was she really pregnant 4months after the trial - around January?
2. I've read some assumptions she might have miscarried the first time. If she did, why the hell did Caleb stay for round 2 which ended up with her really getting pregnant. He was ready to leave in January to get back with Olivia. With the baby out of the way if she did miscarry, why did he stay?
3. Estella is not Caleb's. But if she was conceived in May/June - how can she possibly be someone else's kid. From that balcony scene in Rome it certainly seems like they've reconciled. If Caleb and Leah were getting along, is it even possible for Leah to have sex with another person? I think she only kissed Seth back because Caleb had not done anything physical with her for the longest time.


Julie Leah is a sick and twisted woman and she would do or say ANYTHING to keep Caleb.
I think she could have been pregnant BEFORE she went to Rome, but needed Caleb to THINK that they were trying to conceive. But then again, in the beginning of the book there's a reference (about 3% into the book) were Leah says that a woman carries a baby for 42 grueling weeks (WTF). Last time I was pregnant a pregnancy was only 40 weeks, so this kind of threw me for a loop.

Also if you remember, when Olivia and Cammie broke into Caleb and Leah's house (while they were in Rome), Olivia found evidence that Leah was trying to get pregnant, and even Leah admitted that she was using some type of fertility drug to ensure her pregnancy. So I wondering how the 42 weeks is gong to play into the story line or did the author make a mistake. There are still missing pieces to this puzzle that we won't find out until the 3rd book but in the meantime, trying to figure out Leah hurts my brain.


Zizz LOL Enzo, I see you've decided to take your frustration out in a more public setting.
I have no clue how to figure this one out. The 4-5months discrepancy between that suicide attempt and Rome is mind boggling to say the least. If Leah had tricked Caleb into believing she was pregnant in January but the baby did not come out until March - 14months later - that wouldn't that have been impossible to pull off?


Maria Enzo, I thought I had the timeline straight: after trial Caleb left Leah, Caleb about to go to Olivia's place to get her back but got the call about Leah's suicide attempt & pregnancy lie, they go to Rome (for Leah, it's to get pregnant, for Caleb, a sort of 2nd honeymoon), Cammie & Olivia break-in, Olivia follows them to Rome to get Caleb back & thwart pregnancy, Caleb chooses Leah because of baby. Then I reread DR and in the boat scene Caleb asked Leah if she came to him at the hotel(assuming hotel in Rome) to get pregnant and then he asked, and after did you lie(assuming suicide attempt) to make me stay, she said "yes" to both. Now it seems that hospital was after Rome or maybe an error? After getting a headache thinking about it, I thought there are probably events that occurred that we won't be aware of till we read book 3.
Also, did you read Tarryn's interview on lisasbookreview.com? Q7 about mysteries w/in this story and keeping track of the lies & deceit. Tarryn's ans.: "Sometimes, I give a discrepancy on purpose to reveal a difference in perspective, and the readers think it's an editing mistake".
Hope this helps. We need book 3 like now.


Enzo Hi Maria. Leah's trial ends in September. Caleb tries to leave her 4 months after the trial. Around that time, she announces she's pregnant/tries to commit suicide. Rome doesn't happen until May/June because Olivia did not break up with Turner until around May.
BTW, Tarryn mentioned in the Dirty Red spoiler thread on FB that the hotel scene referred to in the book was not in Rome. I'm assuming Leah tried to seduce Caleb at some hotel we don't know anything about. This happened before the suicide attempt because the "what happened after" referred to at the boat was the suicide attempt.
I have the same headache you have. I did read the interview. On top of this timeline, I now have to question what the difference is between a soul mate and a true love.


Maria Enzo wrote: "Hi Maria. Leah's trial ends in September. Caleb tries to leave her 4 months after the trial. Around that time, she announces she's pregnant/tries to commit suicide. Rome doesn't happen until May/Ju..."

Thanks Enzo, I now have to rethink all these events. I keep getting info. in pieces and it's making me dizzy! (Never checked FB.)
The soul mate vs. true love scares me because if Caleb & Olivia don't end up together, I am gonna lose my mind! Arghhhhhh!!!!


message 7: by Ulanda (last edited Dec 31, 2012 02:01PM) (new) - added it

Ulanda I think we can't trust Leah too much. In an interview with Lisa, Tarryn stated that DR starts not too long after Rome.

I think Caleb left Leah, and went to his condo the 2 month after the trial. Leah called Seth over, she slept with him. Realized she was pregnant, went to Caleb on one of his many business trips & slept with him. "Attempted" suicide, the next month, which got Caleb to come home & go on vaction, which she had been trying to get him to do. I think the fertility charts & tests that were found were left over.

These books seem to have a theme about how close Olivia & Caleb keep getting, but still missing their opportunity. I actually think that we will find out in Book 3 that Olivia married Noah when Estella was a baby. It's unclear how long the events in DR actually take place.


Zizz Maria wrote: "Enzo wrote: "Hi Maria. Leah's trial ends in September. Caleb tries to leave her 4 months after the trial. Around that time, she announces she's pregnant/tries to commit suicide. Rome doesn't happen..."

I get what you mean about the soul mate vs true love issue. We've discussed it over at Maryse's board. In the end, someone said who cares - Caleb could very well be Olivia's true love, soul mate, mechanic, dentist or whatever - the only thing that should matter is they end up together!


Maria Zizz wrote: "Maria wrote: "Enzo wrote: "Hi Maria. Leah's trial ends in September. Caleb tries to leave her 4 months after the trial. Around that time, she announces she's pregnant/tries to commit suicide. Rome ..."

Amen to that Zizz!


message 10: by Amy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amy Poole Julie wrote: "Leah is a sick and twisted woman and she would do or say ANYTHING to keep Caleb.
I think she could have been pregnant BEFORE she went to Rome, but needed Caleb to THINK that they were trying to con..."


I think Leah was saying that she carried Estella for 42 weeks because she was over-due but remember Caleb makes a comment in DR that Estella was early so he's under the impression she got pregnant at a later date than she did.


message 11: by Amy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amy Poole Ulanda wrote: "I think we can't trust Leah too much. In an interview with Lisa, Tarryn stated that DR starts not too long after Rome.

I think Caleb left Leah, and went to his condo the 2 month after the trial..."



I agree with you about Olivia and Noah's marriage....we never know when they actually get married. When Leah confronts Olivia about the Deed and Olivia says that she loves her husband (Noah) they could have only been married for a couple weeks.....who knows at this point.


message 12: by Bren (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bren Really only marries a couple of week? Tarryn is brilliant. My verdict is still out on Noah. Yes he seems sweet and kind , but we never know. Did anyone else think he was flirty with Leah at the birthday part?


♡ Sasha -  TEAM ELLIE. ♥	honestly I'm just as confused as all of you.... Because a lot doesn't make sense and add up... I was 're-reading TO and found that Leah was smoking from the window scene with Caleb shirtless in there Rome hotel scene... so there is no way that he would let her smoke thinking that she was prego when they where in Rome... and when they speak he is coming back from the store with a bag with wine... so the whole him thinking Leah is prego in Rome I think is unlikely, because what type of father would he be to allow the evil woman barring his child to smoke and drink wine...


Angela Ulanda wrote: "I think we can't trust Leah too much. In an interview with Lisa, Tarryn stated that DR starts not too long after Rome.

I think Caleb left Leah, and went to his condo the 2 month after the trial..."


I agree with your thought process Ulanda. I think Leah pulled the suicide because she found out she was prego and it wasn't Caleb's so when he showed up she had to state she was because the baby survived her crazy attempts. Estella was meant to be.....the end of DR was upsetting but I hope to see where the author goes with the ending in book 3.


message 15: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara Thank you! The timeline has been bugging me too. Caleb tells Leah in the hospital that Stella came early, then Leah says everybody should be praising her for giving birth to an 8lb baby. How many babies are premature and weigh 8lbs? Only ones on Days of our Lives! I also thought even if Caleb left Leah and she got pregnant why would she try to kill herself...the baby isn't his! So was Leah already pregnant in Rome? Is that why Caleb let Olivia go? This is really bugging me!


message 16: by ♡ Sasha - TEAM ELLIE. ♥ (last edited Jan 07, 2013 11:14AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

♡ Sasha -  TEAM ELLIE. ♥	@ Sara... don't think she was prego... read my post its above Angela... the smoking and wine


message 17: by Enzo (new) - rated it 5 stars

Enzo Sasha wrote: "@ Sara... don't think she was prego... read my post its above Angela... the smoking and wine"
I doubt she was pregnant in Rome too. It appears more likely that she miscarried in January. But this all doesn't make sense. There is no reason for Caleb to let Olivia go in Rome (happened in May/June) if Leah was not pregnant. And if Caleb and Leah were reconciled (as evident in the balcony scene), there was also no reason for Leah to sleep around.

Is Seth really the father? He was the anti-Caleb in the looks dept. - thin lips and dark hair. Estella had that weird nose and full lips.


message 18: by Sara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sara IDK!!! Don't you think Caleb was there at her birth? I don't think she faked a pregnancy I think she was desperate to get pregnant. Also the interaction between Seth and Leah is weird if you read between the lines. She is acting like out of nowhere he kisses her, but if you re read what he says. It's almost like, "You invited me here, this is what we do Leah why are you kicking me out?" I'm sure it's Seth's baby!


♡ Sasha -  TEAM ELLIE. ♥	@ Enzo... I think that he chose Leah because he didn't want to break his promise that he made at their wedding which was to never hurt her...But after realizing that Olivia had changed and want no longer emotionally unavailable anymore... I think that's when he separated from Leah and that's when the crazy women attempted suicide because she new what was coming... and Seth had to be the baby daddy... But then again with this series you just never know...


message 20: by Enzo (new) - rated it 5 stars

Enzo Sara wrote: "IDK!!! Don't you think Caleb was there at her birth? I don't think she faked a pregnancy I think she was desperate to get pregnant. Also the interaction between Seth and Leah is weird if you read b..."

I didn't think she faked the pregnancy. I think she was pregnant in January and he came back to her. And she probably miscarried. I don't think she was pregnant again in Rome just yet. She was smoking. He bought wine.


message 21: by Enzo (new) - rated it 5 stars

Enzo Sasha wrote: "@ Enzo... I think that he chose Leah because he didn't want to break his promise that he made at their wedding which was to never hurt her...But after realizing that Olivia had changed and want no ..."

Yet he was willing to leave her 4 months earlier in January which was 4 months after the trial. He was on his way to win back Olivia.


♡ Sasha -  TEAM ELLIE. ♥	yes... I agree... my thoughts exactly... so definitely prego after Rome, and suicide attempt after he was leaving her because he was regretting letting Olivia go in Rome


Jennifer Thomas I've thought about this a lot in the last two days and came up with something that I think makes sense. Caleb left Red around January, (remember they had three months of silence together, then tried to make it work, then he left a month later-January) and was gone for a FEW months. During that time Red slept with Seth and got pregnant. She found out Caleb was on a business trip and went to meet him at his hotel and seduced him. One month later, she faked the suicide attempt and told him she was pregnant and she really was, but with someone else's baby, probably Seth since Estella does have Caleb's lips per a line in DR. After the hospital, Caleb moves back in and they go to Rome on a make up trip. She is pregnant, remember O doesn't see her that well. At this point, I believe it is late summer in their story. O doesn't necessary leave the idiot in May, she only mentions the stains and bottles she counted up until May. I think she kept him around until late summer. I think we'll find out that Olivia and Noah married very quickly, once O found out Red was having a baby, maybe Valentine's day or right before Estella is born. Re-read the boat scene from DR and she was definitely pregnant with Estella during the faked suicide attempt.


Jennifer Thomas And to clarify Rome- The wine was for Caleb and Red admitted to smoking at least once while she was pregnant so I'm guessing she did it more than one time. Leah HAS to be pregnant in Rome for Caleb's story at the end of DR to make sense. There is no other reason other than a baby that he wouldn't even entertain walking away with Olivia in Rome. He is absolute in that scene, it is goodbye, and it can only be goodbye because something is holding him to Leah, and it certainly wasn't Leah and her winning personality.


message 25: by Kassi (last edited Jan 08, 2013 11:56AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kassi You ladies have such badass detective skills. Thank you so much for the insights! This book is driving me crazy with all the potholes.


♡ Sasha -  TEAM ELLIE. ♥	yes that's true... But I think he really wanted to stay true to Leah and maybe that's why he didn't wanna break the promise he did on their wedding day... to never hurt her so that could be another strong reason to not choose Olivia... oh man... THIEF needs to come out like now


Jessica Here is my take.
1. Trial ends in September.
2. Caleb file divorce 4 month after trial (around January).
3. Then Caleb moved out. quote in DR "I moved out of the house i shared with Leah and back into my condo. I paced halls, I drank Scotch. I waited." Here it must took several month away while Caleb waited. and I think it's during those month, Leah went to see him at hotel during one of his business trip.
4. Then Leah got pregnant (with Seth) and tried suicide. Caleb took her back and they went to Rome.
5. Olivia and Caleb say goodbye at Rome.


Jennifer Thomas Yes, Jessica, except she sleeps with Seth first, remember she is pregnant for 42 weeks, then goes to Caleb's hotel to "get pregnant". Caleb is under the impression Estella is early when in fact she is two weeks late.


Jessica Agreed Jennifer.


message 30: by Aamirah (last edited Feb 25, 2013 12:49PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aamirah So after reading the Thief teaser, this is how I think it goes:

The trial ends in September.

After the trial, Leah and Caleb's relationship is strained and he leaves her to stay at his condo. Caleb files for divorce 4 months after trial. To stop Caleb from leaving her, Leah tells him she's pregnant and tries to commit suicide. I think she lies about being pregnant.

Since she lies about being pregnant, she has to fall pregnant, hence the fertility chart and monitor. She doesn't fall pregnant so she tells him that she had a miscarriage.

Then Rome happens. Leah is still trying to fall pregnant to keep Caleb which is why Cammie and Olivia found the fertility chart while they were in Rome. Caleb doesn't leave Leah out of guilt since she just had a miscarriage and her sister attempted suicide.

And then after, she falls pregnant for the second time with Seth's (?) baby around July and then gives birth in February/March (a year and a half after trial).


Jennifer Thomas More confused than ever after Thief teaser. She was never pregnant by Caleb and never had a miscarriage. That was all fake per the boat scene in DR. I love that Cammie's comments got Caleb thinking about the miscarriage. My issue with the timeline is if she got Caleb back by Rome, why would she need to sleep with Seth to make a baby? Per all of Red's inter monologues, she loves Caleb so much I don't think she would cheat on him just out of lust. Loneliness and to get pregnant to deceive, yes! But not just for sex. We'll never know until Tarryn finishes the damn book!


Aamirah Jennifer wrote: "More confused than ever after Thief teaser. She was never pregnant by Caleb and never had a miscarriage. That was all fake per the boat scene in DR. I love that Cammie's comments got Caleb thinkin..."

In the Thief teaser, Caleb says that Leah did have a miscarriage. In the boat scene, I only remember finding out that Leah planned the pregnancy and that she tried to commit suicide so that he would come back to her. Was there any indication that there was no miscarriage?


Julie Aamirah wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "More confused than ever after Thief teaser. She was never pregnant by Caleb and never had a miscarriage. That was all fake per the boat scene in DR. I love that Cammie's comments ..."

Where did you read the Thief teaser?


Aamirah Julie wrote: "Aamirah wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "More confused than ever after Thief teaser. She was never pregnant by Caleb and never had a miscarriage. That was all fake per the boat scene in DR. I love that Ca..."

http://www.maryse.net/news/tarryn-fis...


Julie Aamirah wrote: "Julie wrote: "Aamirah wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "More confused than ever after Thief teaser. She was never pregnant by Caleb and never had a miscarriage. That was all fake per the boat scene in DR. ..."

Thanks, I went looking for it. I can't believe I missed it.

After reading the teaser, I'm even more confused than before about the Leah's pregnancy than before.


Jennifer Thomas On the boat Caleb asks if she faked the suicide, not flat out but it is implied. He then asks if she made up everything after, she says yes. I'm paraphrasing but reread and it is implied that she lied to get him back. He fell for it. She really got pregnant and he didn't care how because he loves Estella so much, he doesn't care how she came to be, created on a web of deceit and lies. God I hate Leah!


Jennifer Thomas Also, Cammie's reaction to Leah having a miscarriage is a tell that Red was not pregnant ans miscarries. Cammie must have discovered other clues with the fertility chart to make her react the way she did. Perhaps notes from each cycle, etc. The real question now is how the f did Red get pregnant, and why did Caleb so easily believe it was his.


Aamirah Jennifer wrote: "Also, Cammie's reaction to Leah having a miscarriage is a tell that Red was not pregnant ans miscarries. Cammie must have discovered other clues with the fertility chart to make her react the way s..."

Yup I think you're right about her faking her pregnancy and miscarriage. Changed my theory above.


Julielynn Aamirah wrote: "So after reading the Thief teaser, this is how I think it goes:

The trial ends in September.

After the trial, Leah and Caleb's relationship is strained and he leaves her to stay at his condo. Ca..."


When do you think Olivia married Noah? After reading the teaser, it seemed liked O & N's relationship developed quickly if Leah became pregnant right before or soon after Rome. And then, how long after the marriage was O's birthday party?


Jennifer Thomas Leah was far enough along for Cammie and presumably Olivia to know about it. So here are guesses based on the limited info available: Verdict read Sept 1. Rome March/April of next year. Estella born next March (18 months after end of trial). Olivia wedding between Oct and March of year following trial, the period we can assume Cammie and O would know about Leah's condition.


Jennifer Thomas I posted before that I thought O and N married on Valentine's Day, just a hunch. So if Estella was born in March or Feb, then O's party would be however old E was at that time, was she three months old? So Olivia's party would be May/June. Doesn't seem like O and N were married more that six months before C sends that box.


Aamirah Tarryn Fisher said in an interview that Luisa from the Pressed Penny has created a timeline. I hope she posts it after Thief is released. I would love to see it.


message 43: by Zizz (last edited Feb 27, 2013 02:52AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Zizz 4 months after the trial, Leah claims she's pregnant. That would be in January. Caleb sticks around because of the baby which she later miscarries. They go to Rome in May/June to work on the marriage. Caleb feels responsible and guilty that the turns away O in Rome. No baby yet. Estella comes out in March the following year (18mos after the trial). Caleb thinks the baby came early so I was thinking he's been led to assume that the baby was conceived in Rome or some time after. But as per Leah's POV, she carried for over 40 weeks. I'm not sure if the first baby was real or fake or who the father was. But my guess is that this second baby happened right before Rome. She probably needed insurance that Caleb would stick around forever and therefore got herself pregnant. I don't know who the father is but because Caleb is led to assume that this baby was premature, I'm guessing it's not his.
You know it kind of pisses me off that Caleb turned away Olivia in Rome after she confessed everything. The teaser explains his rationale behind this. BUT.STILL. Leah wasn't pregnant anymore and to think that he was leaving her to go after Olivia in January. It just sucks.


Maria Zizz wrote: "4 months after the trial, Leah claims she's pregnant. That would be in January. Caleb sticks around because of the baby which she later miscarries. They go to Rome in May/June to work on the marria..."

I agree Zizz. I can't believe that Caleb felt that bad or that loyal to Leah that even after Olivia opened up and told him everything, he let her go.
Did he say he was trying to do the right thing for once? That wasn't the right thing. The right thing was to be honest with Leah and himself; he wanted Olivia! I'm team Caleb but he made his bed and deserved the misery that is Leah!


message 45: by Zizz (new) - rated it 5 stars

Zizz Maria wrote: "Zizz wrote: "4 months after the trial, Leah claims she's pregnant. That would be in January. Caleb sticks around because of the baby which she later miscarries. They go to Rome in May/June to work ..."
If Leah had been pregnant, it would have made sense. But I'm not buying this excuse because the way I read it is : He CHOSE Leah over Olivia. Somehow I'm starting to buy Noah for Olivia. Choose Noah and give Caleb a dose of his own freaking medicine.


Brittani Zizz i agree with you...i think olivia deserves more than to be caleb second choice..cause in my mind...he has chosen leah time and time again. I would say 60% of me would like her to choose noah..and continue to be (or somewhat) happy.


message 47: by Zizz (new) - rated it 5 stars

Zizz Brittani wrote: "Zizz i agree with you...i think olivia deserves more than to be caleb second choice..cause in my mind...he has chosen leah time and time again. I would say 60% of me would like her to choose noah....."
Brit - HI!!!! We're taking this discussion everywhere. LOL.
Seriously, I'm still holding out hope for a HEA. It's Caleb and Olivia. TO really broke my heart and I've been obsessing over since. But Caleb better redeem himself completely.


Brittani Zizz wrote: "Brittani wrote: "Zizz i agree with you...i think olivia deserves more than to be caleb second choice..cause in my mind...he has chosen leah time and time again. I would say 60% of me would like her..."

hahah anyone who will listen :)) but yes..HEA would be perfect but he has some serious making up to do...10 years i think...sooo he better fight hard for olivia...and im not opposed to him getting dirty to do it..he should know dirty too..considering he been fucking dirty red for 4 plus years...grrrrrrr


Jennifer Thomas Brittani- I like your style...hahaha.


message 50: by Zizz (new) - rated it 5 stars

Zizz Brittani wrote: "Zizz wrote: "Brittani wrote: "Zizz i agree with you...i think olivia deserves more than to be caleb second choice..cause in my mind...he has chosen leah time and time again. I would say 60% of me w..."
This might make you angrier but it's actually more than 4 years. TO was 3 years post break up with O. C and L got together a year after so 2 years. 4 years when O was in Texas. 9 months of trial. Plus 18mos til Estella is born. That adds up to something that is so freaking long. It's inexcusable. C&O have been dancing around each other for over 10 years and they've only done it ONCE!


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