Captive Prince
discussion
Discussion thread for Captive Prince, Volumes 1 & 2
1 basic question:Lady Margaret. I think I missed the fact that she was Damen's fiance. And now she's preggers with his brother baby.
Did Damen actually love her? And there's no chance it's his baby is there?
Susan wrote: "1 basic question:
Lady Margaret. I think I missed the fact that she was Damen's fiance. And now she's preggers with his brother baby.
Did Damen actually love her? And there's no chance it's his b..."
Probably not. He's been away too long, but Margaret was scheming against Damen from the beginning. There is that whole discussion where Laurent points out the obvious: that Margaret wanted Damen's half brother on the throne because he was weak and she would be able to manipulate/control him which she would not have been able to do with Damen.
Lady Margaret. I think I missed the fact that she was Damen's fiance. And now she's preggers with his brother baby.
Did Damen actually love her? And there's no chance it's his b..."
Probably not. He's been away too long, but Margaret was scheming against Damen from the beginning. There is that whole discussion where Laurent points out the obvious: that Margaret wanted Damen's half brother on the throne because he was weak and she would be able to manipulate/control him which she would not have been able to do with Damen.
I have checked... and any time the question has been asked about #3 the answer is... it is being edited or always carefully avoided!?! Perhaps the publishers are waiting on the success of #1 & #2 before committing to # 3?
Another question:At the end, when Damen's at the fortress and the Akielos troops are coming in...and Damen starts putting all the puzzle pieces together..
I didn't quite understand all the details. Did Laurent play Damen this whole time to bring the Akielos troops to fight on his side? I felt like my brain was on the cusp of understanding...but not fully grasping...
That's sort of the $100,000 question, isn't it? I don't know.
It ties in to whether Laurent knows who Damen is and when he knew. I think he knew since the very beginning and that's why that brutal whipping happened. It was Laurent punishing Damen for having killed his brother. But that's never stated and you can read this whole thing both ways. Does he know? Doesn't he know? Does he think Damen knows he knows?
It ties in to whether Laurent knows who Damen is and when he knew. I think he knew since the very beginning and that's why that brutal whipping happened. It was Laurent punishing Damen for having killed his brother. But that's never stated and you can read this whole thing both ways. Does he know? Doesn't he know? Does he think Damen knows he knows?
God...I do hope he knew. Because I don't want Damen to have to tell him and then to read Laurant feeling betrayed. I know I shouldn't worry about him because essentially, he's dead inside (ha!)...but I don't want him to feel hurt.
I am pretty sure Laurent's uncle knew who Damen was all the time but I am not sure Laurent knows. The uncle's play must somehow hinge on this knowledge breaking Laurent, or else he made a grave strategic error bringing those two together.
Laurant is so tightly wound & held together (that's why the love scene was so GORGEOUS...he finally let go (as much as he was able)) that I'm terrified if he feels he's been betrayed by Damen. And isn't the Regent, himself, a brilliant mastermind?!!!! Whooo weeee...he doesn't get enough credit. But that guys is also pure genius.
Hey everyone may I join?! It ties in to whether Laurent knows who Damen is and when he knew. I think he knew since the very beginning and that's why that brutal whipping happened.
At the beginning I was actually sure Laurent knew Damen's true identity it was like sleeping with a snake in your bed. But by the end I wasn't so sure, Laurent's gradual abandon and trust was so sweet it clouded my mind.
The Regent knows for sure.
It was a while since I read the whipping scene but I had the impression Laurent did it as a (delayed) reaction to memories of being abused/raped by the regent. It came after Damen touched him? I have a hard time seeing Laurent knowing about Damen and accepting his presence. Damen killing his brother is what left him open for the regents abuse. I am worried that Laurent's temper will make him do something terrible when he finds out. The important thing in order to beat the regent and Damens brother is that Laurent and Damen work together.
Sagajo wrote: "memories of being abused/raped by the regent..."I totally missed this! What?
See? In my effort to CONSUME this book and find out what happens, I KNEW I missed or at least hadn't fully grasped some crucial details! (that's why I wanted this discussion board! ha!)
WOW! That's why Laurant is so "frigid"? Oh god...that breaks my heart!
I too think there is much history in the Regent-Laurent relationship. although I don't think a particular incident is mentioned, It's bits and pieces here and there that give a general impression.
I think the abuse by the regent is hinted at pretty heavily, and Damen suspect/knows about it. The regent has a history of using young boys, I am sure he did the same to Laurent when he was younger. Thats why that boys death made him so angry, he reminded him of himself.
The regent is a manipulative monster.
I write abuse/rape, which is what it is to me when it involves children. I dont think Laurent was physically forced though, more emotionally manipulated to try and satisfy and please the only close grown up left in his family. I think he was tossed aside when he grew older and no longer sexually attractive to the regent, after years of being played as a puppet. Laurent got a harsh lesson in manipulation at an early age from a Master.I don't think anyone had sexually touched him since he was tossed aside, but I guess he was also curious about the joyous side of sex or that it could be pleasurable?
Sagajo wrote: "I dont think Laurent was physically forced though, more emotionally manipulated to try and satisfy and please the only close grown up left in his family." Nicely said Sagajo!!!!!!!!
Being a pedophile in "Captive Prince" universe is a total different issue than commiting incest , that's why it's not actually addressed!
Just re-read the last 3 chapters. I really wish Laurent knows who Damen is.
He's figured everything else out that his uncle has tried to pull on him, I think he has to have figured out this one too.
Kate wrote: "He's figured everything else out that his uncle has tried to pull on him, I think he has to have figured out this one too."I really hope so. His temper tantrums are not to his benefit. As far as I can tell Damen is suppose to lead the Akielon force as reinforcements to the fight at Fortaine as soon a possible. If Laurent doesnt know now, he will on the battle field.
I was just thinking about another thing that kind of threw me off: After their night together, when Damen woke up, he turned and Laurant was smiling at him. Didn't that feel weird? Kind of out-of-character? It just kinda nagged at me...
Yay! Shared obsession.The Uncle/Regent is a sick fuck, but brilliant. I'm going to take this even further though... what if he really does want peace with the Akielos and by his very nature (monumental levels of intrigue) is going about accomplishing this by removing the "warmongering" royals? Then setting Laurent and Damen up to either learn humility, the consequences of war first hand, as well as learn to work together, or die?
This way, it could be a win-win situation in the long run as long as the two young Kings play their parts. Laurent has overcome every attempt on his life, learned hard lessons and basically is becoming king material. Damen has developed a much deeper understanding of what it really takes to be a good king as well, and it really didn't hurt for his eyes to be opened to the fact that people can be treacherous, allies and enemies alike.
So many thoughts swirling in my mind!
.....a discussion for this series is located in the M/M Discussion, Book & Series Discussion section....started in June 2010. Just thought you all might like to know. :)http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...
Just read the extra bit in the new e-book release (ch 19 1/2). Whooo wheeee...so good! God, that was ONE AMAZING SCENE!!!!
I've got a nagging suspicion/speculation. It might be too naíve of me, but what if Kastor isn't behind Damen's enslavement or his father's death? And his grief WAS genuine?That doesn't stop him from being the weaker, more easily manipulated man.
Just these (view spoiler) keep standing out to me.
But I do admit not paying great attention to Damen's memory of his brother leaving him the scar. Does it deny the plausibility of this?
Why didn't I check for a Susan thread before I started this one? *facepalm*Just to comment quickly on the other theories in the thread: I think Laurent was most definitely sexually abused by his uncle, and that was the reason for his asexuality.
I was also confused by the ending. Surely, Laurent knew what would happen sending Makelon and his men to Ravenel, right? Seems like a huge risk if he didn't know who Damen was, but I can't be sure. It's killing me.
My question is: What was the significance of the messenger delivering Laurent's signet ring to Damen?
DayDreamer wrote: "I've got a nagging suspicion/speculation. It might be too naíve of me, but what if Kastor isn't behind Damen's enslavement or his father's death? And his grief WAS genuine?That doesn't stop him fr..."
Daydreamer, Kastor had to be in on it. Damen was given to the Regent in trade for his support. I would be more likely to assume that Jokaste was only dealing with it because Kastor is a pussy. Just my opinion.
Taylor wrote: "DayDreamer wrote: "I've got a nagging suspicion/speculation. It might be too naíve of me, but what if Kastor isn't behind Damen's enslavement or his father's death? And his grief WAS genuine?That ..."
I agree about Jokaste dealing with it. But I still think there might be a possibility that Kastor isn't aware of the whole situation.
DayDreamer wrote: "I agree about Jokaste dealing with it. But I still think there might be a possibility that Kastor isn't aware of the whole situation."It's possible, but I figure Kastor had to have been aware of the Regent's plan, otherwise what reason would there be to keep Damon alive? Why not just kill him?
I didn't mean that. I meant that he's either in on everything or isn't aware that Damen is alive and a slave. He wasn't present when Damen was gifted to Vere, was he?
DayDreamer wrote: "I didn't mean that. I meant that he's either in on everything or isn't aware that Damen is alive and a slave. He wasn't present when Damen was gifted to Vere, was he?"I *think* he was in on all of it. His fathered was poisoned, Damon was shipped away, and then everyone that had been close to him was killed. That requires a lot of cover up, and I'd be surprised if any of those things happened without Kastor knowing.
It mentioned him feeling that he was cheated out of the throne and stabbing Damen during that sparring match. He's eeeeeevil.
Re the speculation of Laurent having been sexually abused by the Regent. Remember what Laurent said about how often he had sex? -> Once every ten years. Yup.Who the eff is lady Margaret? I thought it was Jokaste that was Damen's fiance and double crossed him for Kastor.
Lenore wrote: "Who the eff is lady Margaret? I thought it was Jokaste that was Damen's fiance and double crossed him for Kastor. ..."That's Lady Margaret. I missed the deets about her in Vol 1 and then suddenly they were referring to her in Vol 2. So I was a little lost. But, yup, she was Damen's fiance (bitch) who now is with Kastor.
I can't believe I missed her. Are you sure she was called "Lady Margaret" and not "Jokaste"?
I haven't read the pubbed books yet, but she did change some names. In the original Margaret is his fiance who betrays him and marries His brother. But maybe she is Jocaste in the published books? Like Rabat became Vere.
Aaaaah! Makes sense now! Her name is Jokaste in the published books!
YES, I noticed changes in other names too...when I was reading new reviews, I was confused. Guess I will need to do a reread after all!
Just finished these books a couple of days ago and enjoyed them both (Vol. 2 tremendsously). I wanted to reply to the comments above. It's clear as a bell that the Regent molested Laurent after Auguste's death. That's the reason behind so many things -- Laurent's "frigidity," Laurent's affinity and sympathy for Nicaise, the reason he blew his top off when he learned the Regent beheaded Nicaise, the reason he understood the nature of Amieric's relationship with his uncle, the reason the regent spread rumors of incest about Laurent and Auguste, what was behind the Regent's comment to Laurent in Vol.1, "I hate to see you like this when you were such a lovely boy."
And it is absolutely the reason Laurent had Damen flogged so hard -- he felt violated when Damien began to touch him in a sexual way without his permission in the baths.
(I don't think Damen has figured this out though. Toward the end of Volume 2 Laurent says to him "You don't know anything about me and my uncle. You can't see what's in front of your face." And Damen doesn't fully understand Laurent's feelings for Nicaise.)
This is also one of the reasons I'm dead certain Laurent doesn't know who Damen is. (A) With a background like that, it would be so difficult for him to trust anyone as he trusted Damien, but his own brother's killer! (B) With this background, think how violated Laurent will feel when he discovers the truth. The author has set too much into motion here not to play this out.
Also, Laurent has said the regent plans for success and for failure, but could not have anticipated that Damen would be an asset to Laurent. Damen has realized the Regent did realize it -- and realize how much forging a bond with Damen could fuck with Laurent's mind.
I know Laurent can be deceptive, but I just can't see him making that comment if he knew Damen was his own brother's killer -- and I can't see him choosing to trust Damen, who is clearly (reading between the lines in the love scene) the first person Laurent has had consensual sex with, with both his body and his fortress/territory.
No way.
Pacat is such a good writer, I just can't see all this buildup and potential for conflict going to waste. And if you look at her writing, betrayal is a constant theme -- so of course she is going to play it out so that Laurent feels betrayed when he learns that Damen killed Auguste -- who was described as Laurent's protector in Volume 1.
Think how horrible Damen will feel when he realizes that he didn't just cause Laurent to betray himself -- he caused him to lose the one person who stood between him and the Regent, and then when he slept with him, he was sleeping with someone who had already been sickeningly exploited by his uncle in a sexual way.
A huge part of this book is Damen having experiences that open his eyes and cause him to see his enemies and his own actions in a different light. I don't think he's through with that yet...
For all these reasons I think Laurent doesn't know who Damen is.
I really really have a hard time believing that Laurent has no clue about Damen's identity.. I mean Laurent is a freaking genius when he is clear headed.. I dont know.. Maybe I want him to know the identity of Damen because if Damen actually has to tell Laurent about it.. I know that he is going to feel so betrayed and Ahhhh the sh*t will hit the fan. I don't know how I'm going to wait for book three! AHhhhhh D:
Janine wrote: "Just finished these books a couple of days ago and enjoyed them both (Vol. 2 tremendsously). I wanted to reply to the comments above. It's clear as a bell that the Regent molested Laurent after ..."
You raise some great points Janine. And now we play the waiting game for book 3!
I disagree - I agree the flogging was caused by what happened in the baths, but I think he was flogged so hard because Laurent knew exactly who Damen was.
Dirty H wrote: "I disagree - I agree the flogging was caused by what happened in the baths, but I think he was flogged so hard because Laurent knew exactly who Damen was."
Yes, this is my take on it too. Damen killed his brother. The flogging was payback.
Yes, this is my take on it too. Damen killed his brother. The flogging was payback.
I also think that Laurent knew it from the beginning - it would be his great triumph over his uncle's brilliant intrigue for the third part. Also there are enough hurdles on the road to HEA without THAT trust issue coming up...so it's wishful thinking on my part also :-)And I can imagine, that Laurent in the beginning hated Damen and only wanted to use him for his purposes, but later on saw a lot of the qualities of his late brother in Damen (who is honest and of integrity and gives him good advice, takes care of him in any way, saves a slave from being raped, shows compassion and so on). And maybe he saw that Damen could take somehow Auguste's place in protecting him.
Tami wrote: "I also think that Laurent knew it from the beginning "Okay, I've reread Captive Prince (no hardship) and I now think you guys are probably right about Laurent knowing from the beginning. There are a lot of things Laurent says that could be read either way.
Do you guys think Damen has figured out that Laurent was raped by his uncle?
I think that's what makes Laurent's slow progression into trusting Damen so beautiful. It's way more than just him being from an enemy country. But it also makes me wonder what the heck is going on after the end of book 2!I don't think Damen has it figured out yet, no.
I don't think Damen's figured it out either.
Janine wrote: "Tami wrote: "I also think that Laurent knew it from the beginning "Okay, I've reread Captive Prince (no hardship) and I now think you guys are probably right about Laurent knowing from the beginn..."
Hi, I definitely think Laurent knew who Damen was as soon as he laid eyes on him. I think he saw him at Marlas where his brother died. He also had a lot of intel on Damen which is how he knew to set him up in the bath-he knew Damen's type (blond), he guessed Damen would get out of hand so he would have an apparent reason to whip him. And I think he was so brutal with the whipping because he was looking for payback for his brother's murder. The thing that has me puzzled is-it doesn't appear that Laurent suspects his uncle of setting up his brother's murder. To me, it's apparent that all along the uncle has been angling for the crown. The fact that Damien feels that his actions during the battle of Marlas were justified and there are many hints that Veretians can't be trusted. It seems that someone deliberately set it up so the Veretains jumped the gun and while they were supposed to parley-attacked instead.
Janine wrote: "Tami wrote: "I also think that Laurent knew it from the beginning "Okay, I've reread Captive Prince (no hardship) and I now think you guys are probably right about Laurent knowing from the beginn..."
Janine wrote: "Tami wrote: "I also think that Laurent knew it from the beginning "
I don't think that Damen has figured out that Laurent and his uncle had a sexual relationship. Laurent will probably have to tell him-he just doesn't think along those lines. I think the Uncle-being the predator that he is totally took advantage of Laurent after his brother died. We know that Laurent's father was distant and didn't give him attention or affection (via the physician's discussion with Damen)and he was crushed by Auguste's death (which I believe the uncle had a hand in-both to get him out of the way and to make Laurent vunerable). I think all of Laurent's sexual experience came from his relationship with the uncle and I'm guessing he enjoyed the attention and the affection and maybe even the sex. I don't think the uncle was brutal in the physical sense but he is obviously an exploiter and an evil predator. When Laurent tells Damen that Auguste wasn't touched by the taint of the family-he is alluding to the fact that he was drawn to the Uncle. I think the relationship between Laurent and the uncle is very complicated and I think when Damen points out that in a way Laurent is trying to impress his Uncle, get his attention--that is due to a long standing pattern, a habit, a way of behaving that Laurent has engaged in during his formative years-which is why it is difficult for him to stop.
Okay, I've reread Captive Prince (no hardship) and I now think you guys are probably right about Laurent knowing from the beginn..."
Tami wrote: "I also think that Laurent knew it from the beginning - it would be his great triumph over his uncle's brilliant intrigue for the third part. Also there are enough hurdles on the road to HEA without..."
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Has anyone seen or heard rumors of when the third volume will be out?