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Gardens of the Moon (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #1)
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Group Read - Gardens of the Moon > GotM - Chapter Four - NO SPOILERS

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message 1: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Chapter four discussion.


message 2: by Chaz (new) - added it

Chaz | 297 comments Very much a transitional chapter this one. The opening scene with the gods is very interesting as we see some interaction between members of the pantheon.

I hadn't remembered that everyone had worked out the origins of House Shadow so early. QB certainly seems to be more knowledgeable than you'd expect from an ordinary frontline marine but these don't seem to be ordinary frontline marines.

However, it's off to Darujhistan we go.


message 3: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
So chapter 3 tells us: no one's safe.

Meanwhile this chapter says: just because you die, doesn't mean it's permanent. I'll be curious to see how often this sort of thing happens as the series unfolds.

QuickBen definitely isn't just an ordinary marine. He's not even a nobody mage from the way Tattersail talks/thinks about him. We've already seem him do some extraordinary things including binding Hairlock's to a puppet. A magic thought to be lost apparently.

Then you've got WhiskeyJack whose just a sergeant now, but he once was a high commander.

Throw in Kalam who used to be in the Claw, but somehow left despite that being very hard/impossible? At least based again on Tattersails question to him.

Throw in Fiddler (I think) whose just some sapper, who doesn't seem too fond of fighting, and certainly not his sword, but has some uncanny sense for when bad things are going to happen. First he felt the collapse of the tunnels coming getting some of the 9th to safety. Then he felt the "death" of Paran.

So most (all?) of the Bridgeburners so far seem to be more than what they first appear.

Quick Ben is definitely the one I'm most interested in discovering more about at this point though.


Linette | 152 comments This chapter filled in some of the still many unknowns for me. Also rounded out some of the personalities more - have a better handle on what kind of person Whiskeyjack is now, for instance.
One thing I just have to say. Quorl + Moranth = No way, not this girl. *shudder* And, how crazy did the first person to go for a ride have to be?
Chapter ended with a bang again. :)


message 5: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
How does everyone imagine the quorl? I've got like a giant dragonfly in my mind and the Moranth with the armour on, I picture as insectoid aliens like you see on a cheap B grade scifi movie. But that's just me


message 6: by Chaz (new) - added it

Chaz | 297 comments David Sven wrote: "How does everyone imagine the quorl?"

I think of the quorl as moth-like. As for the Moranth, while there is definitely some quality of insect about them there is still some speculation that they are human so whilst their clothes, customs and speech seem very alien I think they are at least bipedal humanoids and are very secretive about revealing their faces. They could have human faces or they could have giant beetle heads.

Quoted from Whiskeyjack's thoughts about the alliance with the Moranth on the rooftop: We know so little about these Moranth - no one has ever seen their cities in the forest. I can't even tell their sex. Most scholars held they were true humans, but there was no way to tell - the Moranth collected their own dead from the battlefields.


message 7: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (last edited Jan 04, 2013 02:44AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Great chapter. Erikson is just showing off now. So much stuff that's just too clever by half.

Couple of passages to note I'll just post them and people can draw their own conclusions

Kalam's gaze was veiled. 'Odd, isn't it? After all, the Warren only appeared following the Emperor's assassination at Laseen's hand. Shadowthrone and his companion the Patron of Assassins – Cotillion – were unheard of before Kellanved and Dancer's deaths. It also seems that whatever ... disagreement there is between House Shadow and Empress Laseen is, uhm, personal...'
Tattersail closed her eyes. Dammit, it's that obvious,isn't it?


What's obvious?

I Like the imagery of Death's Gate. The stuff of nightmare

Twisted, upright yet from his position sideways, the gate was not, he realized, made of stone. Bodies, naked human figures. Carved likenesses? No ... oh, no. The figures moved, groaned, slowly writhed in place. Flesh blackened, as if stained with peat, eyes closed and mouths open with faint, endless moans.

And how would you like an insane puppet watching your back

'Of course he's insane,' Quick Ben replied, looking at his sergeant, whose face remained impassive. The wizard hastily added, 'But that's to be expected. Fener's tail, lady, he's got the body of a puppet! Of course that's twisted him.'
'How twisted?' Whiskeyjack asked his wizard. 'He's supposed to be watching our backs, isn't he?'


I thought the conversation the gods were having over Paran's body outside Hood's(Death's)Gate pretty interesting.

"...nor does my lord appreciate your interruption of this natural passage of a soul.'
'Murdered at the hand of a god,' the sister said. 'That makes him fair game.'


Oponn argues that their interference with Paran's passing is justified because his passing IS NOT natural ie he was killed by a god. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. But Oponn still needs Hood's permission to proceed - and so promises to replace Paran's death with another - to which the servant insists it has to be someone close to Paran (in his shadow) to count.

The apparition was silent, then the head creaked in a nod. 'In this mortal's shadow, of course.'
'Agreed.'


I like the gag a bit later on with the two guards when the bridgeburners are sneaking Paran's body back into the compound

'We're bringing in a body,' Kalam said. 'But this never happened on your shift.'
'Hood's Gate, no,' the second marine said. 'Peaceful as the Seventh Dawn.'


yuk yuk yuk

and The second soldier's eyes widened as he saw the rank of the unconscious man, and the blood staining the front of his baldric. 'Oponn's luck,' he hissed to the Bridgeburner nearest him, a man wearing a tarnished leather cap. 'The pull not the push,' he added.

Oh you slay me Erikson you smarty pants.


And again the Deck of Dragons gives us a running commentary of what's going on - but something I missed the first time

The Mason of High House Death held a minor position among the overall rankings, but now the figure etched on the wood seemed to have risen to an eminent placing. Brother to the Soldier of the same House,....In the House of Death the Mason was the builder of barrows, the placer of stones,....The role had been assumed by a man who'd once worked in stone, but no longer."

then shortly after we have Fiddler and Whiskeyjack talking

'Hood's Bones,' Fiddler went on, 'I ain't no fighter. Not like that, anyway. Was born in an alley in Malaz City, learned the stone-cutting trade breaking into barrows up on the plain behind Mock's Hold.' He glanced up at his sergeant. 'You used to be a stone-cutter, too. Just like me. Only I'm no fast learner in soldiering like you was.

So is this suggesting that Fiddler has taken the role as the Mason of Death in the reading while WhiskeyJack is the soldier of death?


And how old is Tattersail?
An ancient memory flooded her thoughts, which she had repressed for almost two centuries...


And I like this symmetry
The wizard was linked to Hairlock, and the marionette had been on someone's – something's – trail, which led down into the Warren of Shadow.

which is the mirror of the previous chapter

'Coincidence,' the other replied, then giggled. 'Someone – something, I should say – has entered our Warren. Uninvited. My Hounds hunt.

I love this stuff.


message 8: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
I like this also from Oponn as they're at Hood's Gate

'Sword,' the woman finished, a smirk in her tone.
'Far more subtle than, say, a coin, don't you think?'

So a lucky sword? Lucky enough it appears to take on a Hound of Shadow at the end of the chapter after all that magic failed.

A man's voice spoke close by, urgent. 'What do you hear?'
She frowned, trying to concentrate. Then she smiled. 'A spinning coin. I hear a spinning coin.'


So both Paran and Sail can hear the coin - is that good or bad?


message 9: by Chaz (last edited Jan 04, 2013 03:05AM) (new) - added it

Chaz | 297 comments David Sven wrote: "And how old is Tattersail?"

219.

Near the end of chapter 2 Tattersail returns to her quarters. Just before she discovers Hairlock in the package from QB and reads the Deck for the first time:

She entered her tent and closed the flap behind her, then stood surveying her worldly possessions. Scant few, after two hundred and nineteen years of life.

Which I find unusual to say the least. 'Sail is human or at least we have no indication that she is not. Is this lifespan normal for a human in this world? I don't think it is. Is it normal for a mage to be able to lengthen their life? Is this long life due to her access to her specific warren, Thyr? Do other people know how old she is? I can't find the reference to her recruitment to the Malaz army at the moment but I got the impression that she no longer has any ties to her earlier life so she could conceivably be passing for forty.


message 10: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Her longevity is part of her mystery. She's certainly older than the Empire but we know nothing of her recruitment as yet. She's also rated on par with Tayschrenn by those in the know,

'I think you've underestimated the sorceress, Fiddler,' Whiskeyjack said. 'She's a survivor – and loyal. It's not common news, but she's been offered the title of High Mage more than once and she won't accept. It doesn't show, but a head-to-head between her and Tayschrenn would be a close thing. She's a Master of her Warren, and you don't acquire that with a weak spine.'

So she's no ordinary person


Maggie K | 106 comments I too love the clues about who is trespassing in the Shadow Warren...It really is all here to figure out if you spot it!

and we also have the clues about Ammanas and Cotillion's identities...

and you just can never beleive Death in the Malazan world....only if you've seen the body buried!


message 12: by Chaz (last edited Jan 04, 2013 06:26AM) (new) - added it

Chaz | 297 comments This passage is not about her recruitment but it is about her past, the reference I was half-remembering is WJ's below:

An ancient memory flooded her thoughts, which she had repressed for two centuries. The image shook her. Once again she walked the muddy streets of the village where she had been born, a child bearing the Talent, a child who had seen the horsemen of war sweeping down into their sheltered lives. A child who had run away from the knowledge, telling no one, and the night came, a night of screams and death.

Then Whiskeyjack says of her: "Story goes she wasn't recruited, she was on the run. Then she messed up with her first posting.

These kind of details make me think that her past is not known to the Empire, that she was someone on the run who was swept up by the Empire as it expanded and put to use in its armies. I think it is plausible that no one around her knows how old she is. Her physical appearance isn't described as being elderly nor do others remark on her age. What do you think?


message 13: by Chaz (new) - added it

Chaz | 297 comments David Sven wrote: "So is this suggesting that Fiddler has taken the role as the Mason of Death in the reading while WhiskeyJack is the soldier of death?"

Good thinking Batman. This totally passed me by. I don't know if the suggestion is strong enough for us to form conclusions but the allusion is there.


message 14: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori David Sven wrote: "

Kalam's gaze was veiled. 'Odd, isn't it? After all, the Warren only appeared following the Emperor's assassination at Laseen's hand. Shadowthrone and his companion the Patron of Assassins – Cotillion – were unheard of before Kellanved and Dancer's deaths. It also seems that whatever ... disagreement there is between House Shadow and Empress Laseen is, uhm, personal...'
Tattersail closed her eyes. Dammit, it's that obvious,isn't it?"

What's obvious?


That Shadowthrone and Cotillion are Kellanved and Dancer.

And I understood the mason remark to be referring to Fiddler and Whiskeyjack as Mason and Soldier in the house of death. And that those figures weren't that important in the past but suddenly were...


Renny Abraham (renny2077) | 49 comments David Sven wrote: "The Mason of High House Death held a minor position among the overall rankings, but now the figure etched on the wood seemed to have risen to an eminent placing. Brother to the Soldier of the same House,....In the House of Death the Mason was the builder of barrows, the placer of stones,....The role had been assumed by a man who'd once worked in stone, but no longer."

then shortly after we have Fiddler and Whiskeyjack talking

'Hood's Bones,' Fiddler went on, 'I ain't no fighter. Not like that, anyway. Was born in an alley in Malaz City, learned the stone-cutting trade breaking into barrows up on the plain behind Mock's Hold.' He glanced up at his sergeant. 'You used to be a stone-cutter, too. Just like me. Only I'm no fast learner in soldiering like you was."


Wow, I really missed that connection. Thanks for pointing it out. But, 'Barrow' is really throwing me off. (view spoiler)


message 16: by Renny (last edited Jan 04, 2013 11:22AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Renny Abraham (renny2077) | 49 comments Is the rules behind the deck of dragons ever explained in the series? I'm only through 4 books so far.

Tattersail's reading of the deck gives me the impression that even the actions of the gods are sort of predestined by the deck.

I would really like to know how to deck came into being.

Couple of questions:
"Its been buried pretty deep, but the Adjunct became involved, and a Claw came in her wake and silenced damn near everyone in the city guard who might have talked" - Claw killed everyone in Gerrom?

""Much sorrow, alas,' the apparition said.'Someone close to you shall walk through Death's Gate..'(view spoiler)


message 17: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I always thought the opposite, that the actions of the gods, ascendants and members of the house affect the deck. Thus Shadow has been empty for thousands of years but suddenly becomes part of the deck, just when it becomes active again.

Renny - re: your spoiler, that confused me as well.


Maggie K | 106 comments Renny wrote: "Is the rules behind the deck of dragons ever explained in the series? I'm only through 4 books so far.

Tattersail's reading of the deck gives me the impression that even the actions of the gods ar..."


no and no :)


message 19: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Chaz wrote: "Then Whiskeyjack says of her: "Story goes she wasn't recruited, she was on the run. Then she messed up with her first posting. "

Yeah, I'm getting the impression that her past is a mystery. However, I do believe from memory that we learn more of her first posting later on. Why did she turn down the offer to be made High Mage?

@Renny - re your spoiler The Mason - You may be right there. Yeah, we'll have to keep an eye on what everyone does to make sure we get it right. And Erikson does make use of the unreliable narrator. Different characters have different views of what's what.

Also re "someone close" (view spoiler)

All the rules behind the Deck we have to infer from the way its used. Which can be confusing at times because different readers (view spoiler) But there are certainly things we can offer that the deck are not at this point. They do not, for example, work like a Tarot Deck. All the revelations in the deck so far relate to existing events. The deck is subject to interpretation, and often more information is presented to the reader than to observers ie spinning coin - or the sound of the hounds. I think it would be fun on the reread to try and work out at least some of the rules - But one thing is for certain - like the poems, the deck gives us readers clues into current events because we get to see the POV's of some of the players in the deck.



Talking about unreliable narrators, I like how different characters have different version of what happened to Dassem. Some say he betrayed a god. Others say a god betrayed him.

This is Tatterdail's version

'Back in Seven Cities,' she said quietly, 'the story goes that the Emperor's First Sword – his commander of his armies – Dassem Ultor, had accepted a god's offer. Hood made Dassem his Knight of Death. Then something happened, something went ... wrong. And Dassem renounced the title, swore a vow of vengeance against Hood – against the Lord of Death himself.

What went wrong probably has something to do with Toc's version

Of course, everything went to hell after that, what with Hood taking Ultor's daughter

We've already seen with Paran at the Gate of Death what sort of deals Hood makes. Maybe Dassem Ultor's daughter was Hood's price - obviously not agreed to up front by Dassem.

Dassem is one of those mysteries in the series I mostly glossed over the first time round - really looking forward to trying to nut it out this time.


message 20: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
This is interesting

Tattersail stared, then understanding struck a hammer blow to her chest. 'Hound!' she screamed. 'He's reaching for your soul! Escape! Get out of here!'

Why does Tattersail interfere with Hairlock attacking the Hound?


message 21: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Because he's sucking the life out of it. It might be more than compassion- if he succeeded would he have gained the hound's massive power and immortality?


message 22: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Hmmm possibly. I got the impression it was more concern for the Hound itself - Hairlock wasn't just trying to kill or repel it, he was doing something far worse.


message 23: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I wonder how he had the power to do that, I never got the impression he was that high a Mage. He sure is a creepy puppet!


message 24: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lori wrote: "I wonder how he had the power to do that, I never got the impression he was that high a Mage. He sure is a creepy puppet!"

At the beginning of the Chapter we have Tattersail saying

'That edge to him was always there, but he's chewed holes in his own Warrens and he's tasting Chaos. Worse yet, it's making him more powerful, more dangerous.'

Then when Hairlock's taking on the Hound

A chaotic Warren swirled in the room, a miasma that churned into her like riotous pestilence. It radiated from Hairlock in visible pulses of grainy grey shot through with black.


message 25: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Thank you, jeez even in my 2nd read I already forget! And this is only after he became the puppet, right? I wonder what happened, even gods can't get thru to Chaos.


message 26: by Ctgt (last edited Jan 06, 2013 06:20AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ctgt | 46 comments Just a general thought. There has been some discussion about SE throwing us right in the middle of the story and how that can cause confusion. As I read over these first couple of chapters again, it occurred to me that all these little mysteries, all these knowing looks between characters, all these backroom machinations that are hinted at but not revealed, these are the things that made me fall in love with this series. I want to know everything! Frankly, I can't even remember if all these mysteries are ever answered, but these unanswered questions are what kept me coming back for more.


Hanne (hanne2) | 228 comments a transitioning chapter?
i think it was a little too jam-packed with information to be transitioning (but that might be a question of semantics only).
so what's so special about Paran he's worth saving?!

those warrens do have me confused right now, but i'm sure i'll figure it out. i read Geist a couple of weeks ago, and i can now see where Philippa Balantina got her inspiration from. however i think these are done much better than what she did in Geist (in my personal opinion)


Lori wrote: "I always thought the opposite, that the actions of the gods, ascendants and members of the house affect the deck. Thus Shadow has been empty for thousands of years but suddenly becomes part of the ..."
that's how i was reading it too. in her previous reading she was mentioning how Oppun was trying to tell her something


Lori wrote: "Because he's sucking the life out of it. It might be more than compassion- if he succeeded would he have gained the hound's massive power and immortality?"
of course i'm a first time reader so i feel a bit stupid, but i definitely agree that it wasn't out of compassion but to prevent something else. either hairlock getting more power, or that whatever he was planning to do with the hound would set off an even bigger chain of events, with a turn for the worst.


message 28: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (last edited Jan 06, 2013 12:20PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Hanne wrote: "so what's so special about Paran he's worth saving?! "

I think it has something to do with that sword he's got

'We've long admired your ...' His eyes widened.
'Sword,' the woman finished, a smirk in her tone.
'Far more subtle than, say, a coin, don't you think?'


and a bit further

Oponn, the Twins of Chance. And my sword, my untested blade purchased years ago, with a name I chose so capriciously—

What did he call the sword? Oponn maybe? Maybe we'll find out in the next chapters. I can't remember from the first read.


The warrens confused me at first too Hanne. But we do learn more about them as they are used through the series. So far, however, we have discovered you can travel through warrens if you know how - sort of like parrallel Universes. But then people like Tattersail are also opening warrens inside themselves to access their magic.

"of course i'm a first time reader so i feel a bit stupid, but i definitely agree that it wasn't out of compassion but to prevent something else. either hairlock getting more power, or that whatever he was planning to do with the hound would set off an even bigger chain of events, with a turn for the worst. "

Shouldn't ever feel stupid Hanne. Rereaders don't have a monopoly on getting things right - and Erikson gives us a lot of room to speculate. Lori's and your reasoning here is very valid. I imagine killing a hound that has six ancient and intelligent siblings would have some drastic consequences - and Hairlock is certainly increasing in power.


message 29: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori (view spoiler)


message 30: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lori wrote: "Because he's sucking the life out of it. It might be more than compassion- if he succeeded would he have gained the hound's massive power and immortality?"

Actually thinking about it this makes more sense. Hairlock is already into the whole soul shifting stuff - Maybe he was trying to soul shift the Hound into the puppet? How powerful would that be. Less teeth than the hound maybe - unless the puppet grows them after -

I think I'm liking this idea - though I think there still seems some concern for the hound as well.


message 31: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I agree there's definitely compassion there, it sounds like if Hairlock succeeded it would be worse than death.


message 32: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
I viewed it that Hairlock was after the power that the ownership of Gears soul would give him.

I had assumed he wouldn't be able to soul shift into the hound, or the hound into the puppet. I thought SE made great pains to explain to us (in his kind of way) how unique the ability to do that task was when Quick Ben performed it. Of course Hairlock was no where near powerful enough to do it himself, but who knows what he drawing from Kurald Galain.

Sail's most likely saw the potential power shift that Hairlock would achieve and become unmanageable and shouted her warning.

Talk about a going around in circles. How is this.

Lucky Ammanas losed to hounds on the cavalry, otherwise Ganoes wouldn't have been in the room to stab the hound and drive it back to the Shadow Realm, thus denying Hairlock its soul. So Ganoes helped out Ammanas.

Oponn you devious bastard/bitch. You're giving me a headache.


message 33: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lee wrote: "Lucky Ammanas losed to hounds on the cavalry, otherwise Ganoes wouldn't have been in the room to stab the hound and drive it back to the Shadow Realm, thus denying Hairlock its soul. So Ganoes helped out Ammanas."

Ha Ha. Yeah. Lucky Ammanas decided to keep Paran around as well. Lots of luck floating about


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments Wow, there is a lot of info in this chapter - I loved it. I'll have to consider it until tomorrow though, a lot to take in.


message 35: by Ctgt (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ctgt | 46 comments I'm still fairly confused about this whole hound scene.
First Hairlock says "Found! I mustn't be seen, woman.", then proceeds to hide in the box. Then later, after the hound attacks Sail he says "Oh yes, Gear," he shrilled. "I'm your quarry!". Did he think that Sail had weakened the hound to the point he could make his attempt?

What made Sail think the hound would listen to her after Gear had just attacked her?


message 36: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Ctgt wrote: "I'm still fairly confused about this whole hound scene.
First Hairlock says "Found! I mustn't be seen, woman.", then proceeds to hide in the box. Then later, after the hound attacks Sail he says "O..."


I think Quick Ben earlier makes the comment that if the hounds ever caught Hairlock then they would be in for a rude shock. But Hairlock's is also supposed to be being covert - so he doesn't want the hounds finding out who is - If the hounds find out who he is, then Ammanas finds out and Hairlock has House Shadow as his enemy.

But in the scene you mentions he insists Tattersail kills the hound - while he hides. Brave man...or puppet. But H couldn't just keep hiding because the Hound knew he was in the box. Once Tatts starts losing Hairlock's is well and truly cornered and his hand is forced.

But Tatts does distract the hound long enough for Hairlock to sucker punch it in the side and then keep it off balance long enough while he tries to take its soul on the sly. I think Hairlock was playing dirty somehow.

Tatts warns the hound. Hairlock ends up pissed because shes stuffed him totally. Not only did he miss out on getting the soul - but now Shadow knows who he is and he'll always be a marked puppet.


message 37: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Hairlock ends up pissed because shes stuffed him totally

Sails obviously never watched any Chucky movies.


message 38: by seak (new) - rated it 5 stars

seak | 129 comments Regarding the Mason thing, something that of course flew right by me the first time. I like how it's still a mystery even upon a second reading because he throws a couple masons at you right off the bat - Fiddler and Whiskeyjack, but then (view spoiler) I was thinking Bellurdan could also be a mason because he is planning on building a barrow for Nightchill.


message 39: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Seak (Bryce L.) wrote: " I like how it's still a mystery"

Yes. And I think I'm also liking Renny's suggestion for the jobs (view spoiler)


message 40: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (last edited Jan 08, 2013 12:44AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
I think....hmmm, this is actually a spoiler for those who have not read Forge of Darkness as well as this series, be warned (view spoiler)


message 41: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (last edited Jan 08, 2013 01:52AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Oh you are a bad man Lee! That threw me. (view spoiler) - Uggghhhh. No. I have to say no because I don't think Erikson means for us (view spoiler)

Also, I got the impression that those positions can change and in this case they have been more recently assumed - I think.


message 42: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
LOL you make it sound like you get all the answers in this series.

I reckon that we'll be reading a book 5 years from now, it will be the 6th book released since Crippled God, it will be 2,000 years in the future and we'll say "Thats what dunking those bloody cats meant".

But you are right, I imagine the roles change and new players assume them. Still................... ;)


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments I think there was both uncertainty and compassion in 'Sails plea to Gear. Hairlock is insane and no-one trusts him at all. But he's supposed to be an agent of Ben's, and thus watching Shadowthrone. Gear is bound to Shadowthrone, so what would happen to Hairlock if he absorbed gears soul. Bad enough that he might gain Gear's power. But he also might break his ties with Ben, or worse, become bound to Shadowthrone.

In Erikson's world, the characters don't know all the rules of how things work. The soul shifting magic has been lost for over 1000 years, longer that even 'Sail has been around. 'Sail here is acting on her gut fears, I think, of what terrible things might come from what Hairlock wants. And basically, its enough for her to know that Hairlock really wants it to also know that its not a good thing. But I don't think she, or we, know what would have happened if he had succeeded.

I'm behind the reading schedule right now, but enjoying all the posts. I find myself in an especially odd situation with regard to spoilers. I've read the first eight books. And I don't want to have the last two books spoiled, but I'm also feeling very wary about what I can say on any of these threads, because it's kind of hard limiting myself to only the material we've read thus far.


message 44: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Oh jeez, that's hard. I almost think you should finish the series before rereading the first 8, you'll then be able to go into all the spoiler threads and also get great insight in the non-spoiler discussions.


message 45: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
@Duffy - good points. Also spoiler tags are fine in the chapter sections.


Candace (cprimackqcom) So far we know that Tattersail and Tayschrrenn can both read the deck of dragons. As mentioned we can learn a lot about people, but also about future possibilities when there is a reading. Can all sorceresses/ mages read the deck?

Also, Oponn does only attempt to work with Paran after she's explained to Hood, "murdered at the hand of a god,...that makes him fair game." So we learn there are limits to what the gods can do to humans and when.
Learning these limits will be the interesting part of what's to come, I would guess. at least one thing!

Also some people have mentioned Quick Ben's strange magic. We were told he used the magic of the Elders which was an old and dangerous magic. Learning what happened to these Elders and how Ben knows their magic is something else I look forward to.

In conclusion, though new to these books, I am really beginning to enjoy the narrative flow enough now that I can see the humor. A book like this needs comic relief.


message 47: by Lori (last edited Jan 09, 2013 01:47PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Candace, I'm so glad you can already see the humor! That's important because otherwise the series would just be too dark.


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments @ Candace

I wonder at that too, if all sorceresses/mages can read the deck - I thought back to whether Hairlock could or not - but I just went back to check and he does seem to be quick to pick up on the message when Tattersail reads it.

I'm having some difficulty to pick up the comic elements - mainly because I'm putting my efforts into following the narrative. I fail to pick up on the small details, at times, because my brain is working hard to grasp the mere information. English isn't my native language and while my vocabulary is large, it certainly isn't large enough to handle this vocabulary and this much information flawlessly until I've become used to it. I'm getting closer every day, though. :)


message 49: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Kat the humor becomes more apparent as the series progresses - I don't think I picked up on it in Gardens either except for maybe Kruppe and his pastries and general appearance.


message 50: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Candace wrote: "So far we know that Tattersail and Tayschrrenn can both read the deck of dragons"

Ah - not really. I think - that particular reading shows us that Tayshchrenn understands A Deck of Dragons and how to interpret the cards - but he himself is not a reader. He can't pull out the right cards himself, nor can he see or hear the extra information that Sail can - like the sound of the spinning coin, or the howl of the hounds. So he still needs a reader for whom the Deck of Cards responds to - otherwise he would do his own reading.

Hairlock demonstrates the same thing. He's rather insistent that Sail do the reading - if he could do it himself there would be nothing stopping him getting the cards and doing it himself. Again - he understands the cards - but the cards don't respond to him. He can't pull out the right cards himself.


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