Twilight (The Twilight Saga, #1) Twilight discussion


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The Fallacy of Jealousy

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message 1: by [deleted user] (last edited Dec 24, 2012 11:32AM) (new)

I notice a lot of people say "you're just jealous of Stephenie Meyer because she's a better writer than you." I don't know. Whenever I see people say that, I can't help thinking, "wouldn't I be more likely to be jealous of an author I actually like, not one I disliked? I mean, in my opinion, Stephenie Meyer's writing is quite inadequate. I wouldn't be jealous of someone I thought was inadequate, right?

To give an example: one of my favorite books is the Lord of the Rings. I admire Tolkien for being able to create such a vast and expansive world with a creative story that I wish I had enough skill to create as well. You could technically say I'm "jealous" of him. So, logically, wouldn't I be more jealous of someone I liked--in this case, Tolkien--then someone I disliked--in this case Stephenie Meyer?

Am I the only one who thinks this?

I mean, sure, you could *possibly* be "jealous" of someone's publishing success, but typically you wouldn't be jealous of someone's skill you deem to be lacking. I dunno, it just doesn't make sense to me.


Siobhan I think it's jealousy that she's gotten so big, but in my experience a writer doesn't care for success that leads to a lack of privacy, they just want to see their name on the spine of a book. So what is there to be jealous of? Most writers are incredibly private. I mean, I love Sarah dessen and Sophie kinsella but the most I know of them is the blurb on the back of the books.


Mochaspresso I think they mean jealousy of her success and the fact that someone with supposed subpar writing skill managed to achieve it on such a level. They probably think you're just being a "hater".


message 4: by [deleted user] (new)

But I've also seen people say "you're jealous because you're not as good a writer as Stephenie Meyer," which has little to nothing to do with her success. That is focusing on Meyer's skill as an author, not her success in the publishing industry.


message 5: by Gerd (last edited Dec 24, 2012 12:24PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Gerd Well, they probably use success synonymously for talent/skill.

Likely what they mean to say is that they think you're talking sour grapes when you say that Stephenie possesses not much or no writing skill.
Think of it in High School terms, those that can't always try to devalue the success of those that can - because it's easier than work on your own success.


message 6: by S.L.J. (last edited Dec 24, 2012 01:32PM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

S.L.J. SM isn't the worst. E.L. James, now there is someone I loath. I'll admit I'm jealous of her success but only because I don't think she deserves it one little bit.

I've read 50 shades and it was just plain bad. The characters were unlikeable, there was no plot and I've seen better sex scenes in the Vampire Diaries TV show. Which is PG-13 for the most part.

Somebody definatley sold their soul to get that piece of crap publication.


Siobhan S.L.J. wrote: "SM isn't the worst. E.L. James, now there is someone I loath. I'll admit I'm jealous of her success but only because I don't think she deserves it one little bit.

I've read 50 shades and it was ju..."


Still not jealous. I'd rather never get published ever, than have my name synonymous with shit.


Audrey S.L.J. wrote: "SM isn't the worst. E.L. James, now there is someone I loath. I'll admit I'm jealous of her success but only because I don't think she deserves it one little bit.

I've read 50 shades and it was ju..."


TV shows have a different standard of ratings The Vampire Diaries is rated TV-PG 14... I don't know why.


S.L.J. Audrey wrote: "S.L.J. wrote: "SM isn't the worst. E.L. James, now there is someone I loath. I'll admit I'm jealous of her success but only because I don't think she deserves it one little bit.

I've read 50 shade..."


I didn't know there was a PG-14. :P


message 10: by Olivia (new)

Olivia S.L.J. wrote: "Audrey wrote: "S.L.J. wrote: "SM isn't the worst. E.L. James, now there is someone I loath. I'll admit I'm jealous of her success but only because I don't think she deserves it one little bit.

I'v..."

now that really odd.


message 11: by Olivia (new)

Olivia :D


message 12: by Julia (new) - rated it 1 star

Julia I have a friend that's a major Twilight fan and she insists that I'm "a secret lover" or I'm "just jealous of Edward and Bella's relationship," or even just Bella herself. She and some of my other friends (who like the series but aren't as die-hard as she is) are seemingly convinced that I keep loads of Twilight merchandise underneath my bed. Sorry, that was only somewhat related.

But anyway, when she says I'm jealous of something that I've made clear I don't particularly like, I think she's just trying to convince me that I really do like it, I'm just blinded by my 'jealousy,' which makes it seem as if I don't like it. I'm not sure if that makes any sense...


message 13: by Bill (new) - rated it 1 star

Bill Golden It's just their way of attempting to dismiss the criticism of their favorite artist, and it's not limited to Meyers.

I've seen the same charge leveled at Bieber haters, for example: "You're just jealous of his fame, money, and hot girlfriend! He's such a great singer xxxoooxxx!!!"

The reality is, we who despise these undeservedly popular individuals wish artists with real talent would become popular. I'd love to see Jim Butcher's name replace Meyers' as the Flavor Of The Year, because he actually writes GOOD books.


Siobhan Bill wrote: "It's just their way of attempting to dismiss the criticism of their favorite artist, and it's not limited to Meyers.

I've seen the same charge leveled at Bieber haters, for example: "You're just j..."


To be fair, Bieber did have a hot girlfriend. Never thought of Selena as a muff diver before they got together, but it didn't harm her rep much.


message 15: by S.L.J. (last edited Dec 25, 2012 07:40AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

S.L.J. Siobhan wrote: "Bill wrote: "It's just their way of attempting to dismiss the criticism of their favorite artist, and it's not limited to Meyers.

I've seen the same charge leveled at Bieber haters, for example: "..."


LOL! I was jealous of my ex-girlfriend because she'd been with more women than I had. But that's just a man thing.

It's like seeing someone that has been dodging taxes or stealing from work or been convicted of rape winning the lottery. Yes, you get jealous but mostly you just get angry because they don't deserve it.


message 16: by [deleted user] (new)

Bill wrote: "The reality is, we who despise these undeservedly popular individuals wish artists with real talent would become popular. I'd love to see Jim Butcher's name replace Meyers' as the Flavor Of The Year, because he actually writes GOOD books."

The reality is also that there're going to be celebs you hate and suck that don't deserve their popularity, and it's inevitable.

Looking on the positive side, there's also going to be a lot of people you deem to be good that are popular. E.g., for me: Tolkien, Riordan, Austen, Shakespeare, Jonathan Swift, GRR Martin.


Siobhan Riordan? I can't respect him, purely for how he started Percy Jackson. Never start a book with 'don't read this'.


message 18: by Julia (new) - rated it 1 star

Julia Siobhan wrote: "Riordan? I can't respect him, purely for how he started Percy Jackson. Never start a book with 'don't read this'."

Personally, I love the Percy Jackson series, but that part does bother me. I stared reading them when I was pretty young, so it didn't really matter to me at the time. I have no idea why I'm talking about this on a Twilight thread.


message 19: by M.R. (new) - rated it 1 star

M.R. Graham Personally, I always do happy dances when I see a favorite author finally break into the NYTimes Bestseller list. When Laurie R. King hit the top, I actually squealed. So yes, I suppose I'm a bit envious of her success and of her skill. I'm envious of Martin and Butcher, too. There are a lot of lesser-known authors whose skill I also envy, though they haven't hit it big on the success front, yet.
I am not envious of Meyer - not even of her success. Large parts of her fan base are, frankly, scary. I'd love to have fans, but I would never want hordes of raving crazies.
(Though, to be fair, hers aren't especially crazier than, say, Bronies or Trekkies. Twihards just geek in a way I dislike.)


message 20: by [deleted user] (last edited Dec 25, 2012 08:59AM) (new)

Siobhan wrote: "Riordan? I can't respect him, purely for how he started Percy Jackson. Never start a book with 'don't read this'."

Ha, actually that's what I liked about the beginning.

Riordan isn't a literary genius, but I love him nevertheless because Percy Jackson was the first real fantasy series that I loved and introduced me to the genre. And for that I can't thank Riordan enough, because without that, I never would have read some of the awesome books I've found in the past few years.

Not that it's one of those "guilty pleasures" or anything--I do actually think PJO is quality literature (albeit not a masterpiece). And like Julia said...I have no idea why I'm talking about this on a Twilight thread.


S.L.J. M.R. wrote: "Personally, I always do happy dances when I see a favorite author finally break into the NYTimes Bestseller list. When Laurie R. King hit the top, I actually squealed. So yes, I suppose I'm a bit e..."

I hope I get there some day.


message 22: by [deleted user] (last edited Dec 25, 2012 10:05AM) (new)

Ida wrote: "If there was any thread of evidence for this sort of argumentation..."

That "sort of argumentation" called ad hominem! :D

I also hate this one: "you just don't get it." Damn that is nothing short of absolutely patronizing. (Unless of course there's some explanation for it, in which case I'm never offended because there's evidence to back it up; but usually it's like "you just don't get it, and I won't try to argue with you because I know you're too simple-minded." btw, that's nearly an exact quote.)

Or this one: "I suggest you reread the books in greater depth. Oh, and make sure this time around, you actually LIKE IT." (Not the last part, but it's basically what the statement insinuates.) That happened once when I said I didn't like the Hunger Games. Ugh.


message 23: by Bill (new) - rated it 1 star

Bill Golden There's another aspect to the jealousy fallacy that I'm sure no one who's leveled that charge has ever really considered: Once you reach that level of stardom, your life doesn't automatically become roses, rainbows and unicorns; there's continual media scrutiny of each and every single thing you do.

If you step out of line even a fraction of a nanometer, you get your name on the front page of every tabloid in America, in a bad way.

God help you if you sunbathe naked. There are probably 3 or 4 paparazzi sitting in a tree 1/4 mile off, waiting to snap photos of you with the largest telephoto lens ever made.

If you were mean to Mary Rose in the 3rd grade (probably for stealing her cookies at recess... her made made the best, right?), it will come out sooner or later. You may have forgotten, but she hasn't, and who wouldn't like a few hundred extra bucks simply for dishing some dirt on a celeb?

Oh... you had best better give to charity around Christmas time (by the way, Merry Christmas, everyone), because someone, somewhere, is waiting to see just how much you hate orphans around the holidays.

Ask yourself: is anyone really jealous of that level of attention?


message 24: by [deleted user] (new)

Bill wrote: "There's another aspect to the jealousy fallacy that I'm sure no one who's leveled that charge has ever really considered: Once you reach that level of stardom, your life doesn't automatically becom..."

Haha! Good point. I remember seeing a news article somewhere that Kate Middleton was sunbathing topless and a French magazine snapped a photo and published it.

But there's a lot of upsides to celebrity life as well. For one, you get pretty stinking rich...and I know plenty of people who would love that kind of attention. Some celebrities seem to savor it, actually. (Kim Kardashian much?)


message 25: by [deleted user] (last edited Dec 25, 2012 11:56AM) (new)

Ida wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Ida wrote: "If there was any thread of evidence for this sort of argumentation..."

That "sort of argumentation" called ad hominem! :D

I also hate this one: "you just don't get it...."


Yup. I thought The Hunger Games was a piece of shit. But that's just me :D

but with some series I've experienced that with some books the antis know a lot more about what they're talking about, while the fans just seam to skim the surface and avoid the uncomfortable truths.

Yeah. To be fair, though, that sometimes applies to the antis as well--even I've done it before. But when I start seeing dismissals of perfectly legitimate arguments with things like "it's all subjective" and "everyone's different" and "you just don't get it" --in other words statements that miss the entire point of those arguments by a mile--it annoys me.


Lizardhound I went and read all four books, and I watched the first three movies, because a friend of mine just loves the series. We used to argue and it got to a point where we agreed not to talk about it at all because she was very genuinely very offended when I slaughtered her favourite series the way I did (mentioned all of Meyer's mistakes and lack of skill).
I still rip them apart when people tryto convince me to like the series, which happens every once in a while. Because rather few people understand that best-selling literature is not necessarily good.


message 27: by M.R. (new) - rated it 1 star

M.R. Graham Still have to read the Hunger Games. The wee sister insists, and I do feel like I'm missing out on a significant cultural phenomenon, even if it's not as fab as the internet makes it out to be.

"It's all subjective" makes no sense, most of the time. Mostly because the argument usually boils down to "It's all subjective, therefore your dislike is invalid, and you need to accept my point of view." Slightly contradictory.


message 28: by [deleted user] (new)

Actually I think they use "it's all subjective" not to invalidate one's argument, but to say that what they use to justify their argument is invalid because it's a "matter of opinion." Most of the time this includes disregarding all criteria typically used to judge a book (e.g. plot development, pacing, etc.)

I think sometimes when people use that, it's justified; but most of the time, it's a dismissal, not a rebuttal.


Lizardhound M.R. wrote: "Still have to read the Hunger Games. The wee sister insists, and I do feel like I'm missing out on a significant cultural phenomenon, even if it's not as fab as the internet makes it out to be.

"..."


Well, the main character is a Mary Sue, but the concept and setting is actually frighteningly realistic when you think about it. Worth a read, I say, even if the ending of the trilogy feels a bit rushed and forced to me.


message 30: by Bill (new) - rated it 1 star

Bill Golden Jocelyn wrote: "For one, you get pretty stinking rich...and I know plenty of people who would love that kind of attention."

This discussion usually comes up when the lottery hits a mega-jackpot (the kind that makes national news), and someone inevitably breaks the daydreaming by pointing out every negative thing that comes along with having more money than God.

First of all, every relative you have thinks you owe them money, or begs you to invest in their "can't miss" get-rich-quick scheme to import ice from Siberia, or just camps out in your house because "hey, you can afford it now, and I'm you're favorite *insert relation to you here*, so it's cool, right?".

Then there's the house. You have to get one that's too big, costs too much to maintain, and comes with too many servant-types, because it's expected of someone with your level of wealth. It also has to have top-of-the-line security, so no one steals the amazing number of things you need to own.

Speaking of which... you need to have security 24/7 around you because yes, there really are people who hate you for being rich. Also, paparazzi.

You must hire an accountant to track your money, because it's going to be all over the damned place: taxes, securities, investments, etc. If he's not an honest individual, you suddenly go back to being po' and broke.

Modest success, modest house, modest money... those are good enough for most of us.


message 31: by [deleted user] (new)

Bill wrote: "Modest success, modest house, modest money... those are good enough for most of us."

Yeah. I would never ever ever want to live the life of a celebrity. *shudder*

I don't think the "costing too much to maintain" is a problem for most celebrities, though. When you have a bazillion dollars, money buys pretty much anything. You could probably hire someone to do the work for you too.


message 32: by [deleted user] (last edited Dec 25, 2012 01:34PM) (new)

M.R. wrote: "Still have to read the Hunger Games. The wee sister insists, and I do feel like I'm missing out on a significant cultural phenomenon, even if it's not as fab as the internet makes it out to be."

I found the first two (since I haven't read the last) to be superficially entertaining, but the world-building has more holes in it than Swiss cheese, the characters are all stiff archetypes and puppets dancing on the strings of the plot, the pacing is atrocious, the prose is tiring and overly simplistic, and the plot itself is rife with Deus Ex Machina and other such pesky plot devices. Still, like Lizardhound said, it's worth a read. I consider it to be nothing more than a cheap thriller, but even then it can be entertaining. And who knows, maybe you'll like it better than I did :) I have a habit of nitpicking and it's hard for me to overlook flaws when they get too big.


message 33: by Olivia (new)

Olivia Jocelyn wrote: "M.R. wrote: "Still have to read the Hunger Games. The wee sister insists, and I do feel like I'm missing out on a significant cultural phenomenon, even if it's not as fab as the internet makes it o..."

ok


message 34: by Olivia (new)

Olivia all the never ending thingns about a book?


message 35: by [deleted user] (new)

TO OP: thank you!! that's what I'm saying!


Siobhan Bill wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "For one, you get pretty stinking rich...and I know plenty of people who would love that kind of attention."

This discussion usually comes up when the lottery hits a mega-jackpot (t..."


If I get successful writing (for me, that's just having a physical book with my name on it) that's all I want. I don't think I'd even leave my job now, because I would have zero motivation without it.


Siobhan M.R. wrote: "Still have to read the Hunger Games. The wee sister insists, and I do feel like I'm missing out on a significant cultural phenomenon, even if it's not as fab as the internet makes it out to be.

"..."


The first two are good (people's feelings of Katniss aside, you will be able to picture everything in it) but the third was just political propaganda. Seriously, Katniss becomes the poster girl of the revolution and despite being in two hunger games, is no longer allowed to fight and has to be wrapped in cotton wool. But stick with it, because the end is pretty good in comparison to the rest.


message 38: by M.R. (new) - rated it 1 star

M.R. Graham Ah, well, entertainment is really all I'm looking for in a holiday read. I'll have to grab a copy. :)


message 39: by Olivia (new)

Olivia M.R. wrote: "Ah, well, entertainment is really all I'm looking for in a holiday read. I'll have to grab a copy. :)"

ok


message 40: by Olivia (new)

Olivia :D


message 41: by Jeni (new) - rated it 2 stars

Jeni I can dislike something without being jealous of the person that manufactured it. I don't care for KFC, but I'm not jealous that the Colonel has so many restaurants worldwide!

I actually read Twilight to motivate me to write my own stories. If I'm going to say "I could write better than this!" then I better put my money where my mouth is, yes?

Do I want to be published and adored by millions of people worldwide? Heck yes! Do I project that desire to be successful into an ill-placed sense of jealousy for someone who achieved that goal? Heck no!

My friend is a recently published author and I have nothing but pride for her and her success. Do I also want that? Yes! I refuse to waste the energy on jealousy, though. I could spend it writing my own story, instead!


Siobhan Likewise, a friend came to me recently and said she was doing something she had been wanting to for a while, and was writing a book. And I have not shut up to her since, or stopped forcing my own writing down her throat, because I'm so excited that there's someone in my life to share this passion with that regardless of whether either of us get anywhere with it, I am still so excited for what it DOES entail.

I like your KFC analogy ;)


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