Divergent (Divergent, #1) Divergent discussion

Dosen't it SUCK that Erudites have to be the bad guys?

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Weiting I mean, if I was EVER in Roth's dystopian Chicago, I'd TOTALLY BE ERUIDTE.
Love learning,love reading and I'm pretty smart, to admit. But I hate that the Erudites have to be like, these evil,cold hearted, brainy people.
I mean, in any society there has to be good people, and bad people too.
Get Peter for instance.
Anyways, Amity and Candor..Amnegation, those are JUST NOT the bad guy type of groups.
Dauntless..NEVER. But I hate that it HAD to be Erudite that ruined everything.
Does anyone agree with me?

Corinne G I so agree. When I think about the faction I'd be in, if the Urudite weren't evil, I'd choose them in a flash. It's kinda like in Harry Potter, why does Slytherin have to be the evil group? Not that I would like to be in Slytherin, but still...

Kristen Tarzwell wow what a spoiler...... you're probably gonna wanna change the title

Erudite made the most sense. They're smart and that probably means they are more cunning and calculated... it makes the most sense for them to be the 'bad guys' like it made the most sense for 'slytherin' to be the 'bad guys'

I mean how silly would it have been for Amity or Hufflepuff to be the 'bad guys'...

ℂᖺαᖇᒪἷ℮ ⊰1017 &Tardis⊱ YES! I get all proud of being pure Erudite, but people give me this look....and I still think that they aren't 100% bad, we shall find out in "Detergent"

Molly I know!

Corinne G lol Hufflepuff being evil...

Natalie I kind of took it as a metaphor. I think (and I may be *completely* wrong, so if anyone has more information, please do correct me) that the author is a religious fundamentalist of some sort, and to her, science, and the pursuit of secular knowledge, is bad, so that's why she chose the Erudite to be evil.
From a logical standpoint, I find the most intellectual people to be the *least* violent. That's not to say that they can't be terrible people. It's all about empathy. A strong person without empathy quickly becomes a bully, and so does a smart person.

Natalie Kristen wrote: "wow what a spoiler...... you're probably gonna wanna change the title

Erudite made the most sense. They're smart and that probably means they are more cunning and calculated... it makes the most s..."

I gotta disagree. The intellectual people were supposed to be in Ravenclaw (-insert militant Harry Potter fangirl joke here-). The purebloods were in Slytherin. They thought they were better than others; they were prideful. It's easy to see where the inclination for Dark magic comes in there, I think.

message 9: by Eva (new) - rated it 5 stars

Eva Exactly! Holy crap now that someone mentioned it... the factions does seem like HP's... like Dauntless = Gryffindor

message 10: by Sophie (last edited Dec 22, 2012 10:21PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sophie I might choose Erudite - I love learning, reading (obviously!) and I am smart *not arrogant, OK? Just being truthful*. But, then again, I would find it a bit boring cause I love a challenge (GO DAUNTLESS! DIVERGENCE ALL THE WAY :P). Although I do wish Erudite weren't bad, it is a logical point on Roth's part.

Erudite = Knowledge =Power = Bad Guys.

Do you see where I am going here? :)

Kristen Tarzwell Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: "wow what a spoiler...... you're probably gonna wanna change the title

Erudite made the most sense. They're smart and that probably means they are more cunning and calculated... it ..."

OH I know but Harry Potter was a little differnt because they prided themselves on their blood lines and not their knowledge like Erudite did... I think Erudite has more in common with Slyterin than Ravenclaw

Kristen Tarzwell It's not that they are violent, it's that they are smart enough to have others do their bidding.

Julianna I think that it' Erudite's singular focus on IQ that brought them down. Afterall, sociopaths are often very smart. And plus it points out how easily people (even smart ones) can be corrupted

Speaking of HP, I'm getting rather annoyed by the repeated characterization of all slytherins being absolutely evil. There has to be at least a few slytherins of integrity.

message 14: by Cara (new) - rated it 4 stars

Cara I think the Erudite and Dauntless should switch places (crazy warriors are much more entertaining than crazy geniuses). Besides, Caleb being in Dauntless would be awesome. And with Harry Potter, I think that the Slytherins just do what they are taught, so they aren't really evil- whoever taught it to them is. Slytherins are great bad guys, though, even if they aren't as evil as Voldemort.

Kristen Tarzwell It's just generalization not all Erudite are bad either :)

Samantha D I like the idea of valuing knowledge, but I hate how they're protrayed as power/knowledge-HUNGRY, like wanting to know more is a bad thing...

message 17: by Dawn (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dawn Morgan "Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil." from a t-shirt

I think that searching for knowledge is a good thing, however, when you lose sight of your humanity that's when the problems arise. Logic sometimes needs to be put aside for the sake of people/emotions. I'm afraid that on occasion I am a person who will listen to someone's emotional/passionate argument, and simple reply, "But that's not logical." There's more to life than logic and knowledge. There is more to life than simple subservience. There is more to life than not fearing consequences. There is more to life than being blindly accepting/compromising. The main characters are "divergent," meaning they have qualities of all factions. As the books progress we will find good and bad in all factions. And we will see that the "best" people are those that are capable of thinking in all ways.

message 18: by Emily (last edited Dec 29, 2012 08:53AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Emily Hah, yeah I get you to an extent. Still, I think Roth has avoided making them into the OMG EVIL ALWAYS people that you see in other books (take Slytherin in HP, for instance). (view spoiler)

message 19: by Amy (new) - rated it 4 stars

Amy Kristen wrote: "wow what a spoiler...... you're probably gonna wanna change the title

Erudite made the most sense. They're smart and that probably means they are more cunning and calculated... it makes the most s..."

Actually, you only see book discussions for books you have marked as 'read,' so technically, the title isn't a spoiler. If someone marks a book as read when they haven't, they run the risk of seeing spoilers. We know at the end of this book which faction is behind the whole attack, so it is not revealing anything from insurgent.

As for the question, yes it does stink because I would be Erudite, but it also makes sense that the faction with the education and technology would grow power hungry.

message 20: by Jeni (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jeni I'm of the opinion that highly logical and literal people sometimes lack the ability to project consequences to a logical course of events. I can totally see where they may have just felt it was "best for the whole" rather than the affects it may have on people not so inclined.

 ☾ Midnight Meets Moonlight ☽ Kristen wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Kristen wrote: "wow what a spoiler...... you're probably gonna wanna change the title

Erudite made the most sense. They're smart and that probably means they are more cunning and c..."

ravenclaw r da good smart. helping others type.

eilis It does!!! The whole time I was reading Divergent, I was thinking "Wow!! The Dauntless are so cool!" But knowing me, I'd for sure be in Erudite...and then they I find out they are all a bunch of smart demon children...

message 23: by Nermin (last edited Dec 29, 2012 12:58PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Nermin No one ever said that Erudites are or have to be the bad guys. Sure, some of them have done pretty bad things, but NOT all of them. take Will's sister, Fernando and some other Erudite defectors for instance. they're all really nice people.

message 24: by [deleted user] (new)

I think Erudite were really cool! Except for the fact that they were really...awful. If it wasn't for Jeanine, lesbihonest, they'd be freakin' awesome!
Dauntless are just trying to get back at someone.
Abnegation are just self-righteous nobs in disguise.
Amity are just...just...just no.
Candor are mean.

message 25: by Jeni (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jeni Here's how I, amusingly, pictured all the different faction members:

Erudite=Vulcans and/or Sheldon Coopers
Dauntless=Jason Bournes
Candor=Bishop from Aliens

A bit off topic, admittedly. :)

Nicki Well that's kind of the great thing about the storyline is that people are realizing that the factions are a terrible idea, and that the segregation leads to division between people. The negative traits of each of these factions is obvious when the characters visit them.

I don't think Erudite was the "bad guy". It just happened to have the person in charge of the simulation attacks, so the entire Erudite faction is somewhat guilty by association. But each has their negative sides. And by the end of Insurgent, you have found out about people who were transfers from this one to that one.

But what I saw was the majority of Erudite worshipping knowledge and information, and forgetting about humanity. Not all of them, but as a whole, that is what their faction seemed to revolve around. Every other one had some sort of human component to it in a way. Just my opinion.

message 27: by Hec (new) - rated it 5 stars

Hec Hernandez i get how they are the bad guys because they are full of knowledge and they invent stuff so makes sense

Rachael I agree, I think knowledge is definitely the most important aspect of society. It is just unfortunate some of them chose to use their knowledge for negative power rather than to help the ones in need. However, this is not anything new; look at the world we live in...

message 29: by Beth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth So glad there are other Erudites who aren't coldly intellectual, power-hungry monsters haha. I would be Divergent, but would choose Erudite because that's where I would fit best probably. And having a few good guys on the inside wouldn't be a bad thing, right?

Mirkat Veronica Roth wrote an interesting blog entry on this issue.

Shelby You would think it was the Dauntless that would take over all of the factions, but it makes sense that Erudites teamed with Dauntless. It does piss me off, but the good kind of piss off that you would want from a book.

message 32: by Rebekah (new) - added it

Rebekah It could have been Amity, that would have been hilarious irony considering they're the peaceful xD

message 33: by Caitlink28 (new)

Caitlink28 I totally agree about the Harry Potter thing.
Gryffindor = Dauntless or Abnegation
Hufflepuff = Amity or Abnegation?
Ravenclaw = Erudite or Candor
Slytherin = Erudite or Dauntless

I think its totally unfair that throughout almost the whole series, Roth promoted Erudite as the "bad" faction, discluding Caleb, Will, Edward (to some extent) and Myra. She almost depicts Abnegation as the perfect faction and then totally opposes Erudite. If I were in the world of Divergent, I would totally be in Erudite. Their aim is only to use their knowledge to help people, not to kill. She portrayed the whole idea of curiosity of knowledge as a bad thing. Perhaps this could lead to the concept of her being Christian. This logically could mean that she is being biased towards the Erudite since she is seeing their science and search for knowledge as a force against God perhaps.

Camilla I think they need to study some kindness :( They really would be a great faction if they were more compassionate.

Joseph Rouhana We saw the factions from Tris's perceptive so it makes sense that abnegation seems perfect ( her home ) and that erudite ( the faction her father hates ) seems evil to HER.

Tana Lovegood of Dumbledore's Army✞~ Rogers/America i normally imagined Dautless or Candor as "evil" not really Erudite....

Rebecca I think that what the book is trying to say is that the knowledge that they have gained have made most of them power-hungry.

Essraa Knowledge is power and when you hand it in the wrong hands expect chaos!

Marcus I think it fitting that the erudites are the bad guys.... U know that evil genius thing is always a classic and awesome villan.

message 40: by Ella (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ella I think it makes sense, because Erudite is the one faction smart enough to uncover something like this. Because they're known to be smart. But, I think it would be cool to have the factionless uncover what's going on outside the fence. :)

message 41: by Rose (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rose Miller Yep :( I am the typical Erudite, but I would never do something like that! I know that it is fitting, but still, I would rather is be another faction :)

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