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Chit Chat - Getting to Know You > Kim Harrison / The Hollows discussion *SPOILERS*

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message 1: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) White Witch, Black Curse came out today! YEAH!

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on the series & the latest installment.



message 2: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) another thought...

If you are going to be posting any spoilers it would be a good idea to uncheck the 'Add to my Update Feed' box so your friends don't have any surprises ruined by browsing their GR home page.


message 3: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) Good idea Shanon. I'll be back to let you know what I think when I finish!


message 4: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments Yay! I just got my copy today, so I plan to dig in immediately.


message 5: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I was laughing out loud at the little song Jenks was singing in the car...

Alright first you need to imagine I very hot & built man. Now shrink him down to 4 inches, add wings & picture him standing in his classic Peter Pan pose...

"Five trolls in dra-a-a-a-ag,
Four purple condoms,
Three French ticklers,
Two horny vamps,
And a succubus in the snow"

His language (especially the cursing) is such a fun aspect in Harrison's books! I don't think I'd like these as much if Jenks wasn't a part of the story!


message 6: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments I was cracking up! Have you gotten to the part where he gets honey drunk and sings? Too funny. I love Jenks, especially when he invokes the name of Tink in vain. He's so proud of his 4 dozen kids... I'm gonna cry when/if Matalina dies. :(


message 7: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I haven't gotten there yet. Hopefully I get to it before my husband falls asleep otherwise I'll wake him up giggling (it's happened!).

Harrison has been preparing us for Matalina's death for a while - I really hope it doesn't happen though. Jenks' emotions will probably get the best of me & I'll cry as hard as I did when Kisten died even though she's not as big of a character.

Oh Tinks Titties! HA


message 8: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments I HATE that Kisten died, even though I understand why it had to happen.

I'm still undecided as to whether I like Marshal or not as a new character. I do like Glenn and Ford.


message 9: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I think I like Marshal - the jury's still out though...

Glenn is a good guy. I think it's cute that he asks Rachel to sneak him ketsup. Both him & Ford are really accepting of the differences in others & I admire characters like that too.


message 10: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments I was thinking, for this thread, maybe we should post what book and page we're on. What do you think, ladies? I'm afraid I'm going to let some spoilers slip w/o meaning to, even knowing this is a spoiler thread.

So, I'm reading White Witch, Black Curse (forever more WWBC), and I'm on page 184. I have the day off, so I fully expect to move along further before the day's over.

Shannon, I think the reason I like Glenn and Ford ARE because they are accepting of Inderland differences. Plus it's super that they and Edden see Jenks as a person, not just some annoying bug critter. It means they are willing to see everyone for who they are, not just WHAT they are.

The whole GMO tomato virus has always amused me. I'm not a super fan of raw tomatoes anyway, so I find it more amusing than I probably should! I kept snickering inappropriately at the news reports last year of the bacteria scare that they blamed on tomatoes... you just can't explain inappropriate laughter about stuff like that to folks who aren't Hollows initiates.


message 11: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I like your idea of posting our page # - but can we switch it to chapters. I read ebooks & estimate what page # I'm on for my progress bar but I have no idea how accurate it is.

I'm not sure what chapter I'm on right now - I'll have to start paying more attention. (Right now everyone's in the mall - Apprx 138)

I've been trying to be careful to only talk about trivial things - ie: Jenk's song - but your would make it so anyone in the thread could talk about what's happened up to that point. And if we post what chapter/page we're on at the beginning of our post they can simply skip the post. GOOD IDEA!

I'm liking Marshal more & more - he put himself into such an awkward situation for Rachel when he went to her mother's house. Then he even distracted Rach's mom for her by looking through photo albums - although looking through photo albmus at Rach's teen years probably wasn't too hard for him.

I don't watch the news much anymore - I would've giggled at the tomatoe bacteria as well & probably made comments about watching out for the vamps. We can be politically incorrect together.

(ooo long post - sorry!)


message 12: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) Only in chapter 2 but I'm working on it.


I'm still not sure about Marshall. I like him, but I kind of think that's about it. But another witch is good, at least for Rachel. I'm happy to see Ford more. I'm curious about him, hope he continues to be involved.
I find myself forgetting things from the previous books, makes me think I should have ran through them again before starting this.

So I'm guessing this will all be about Kisten's killer, which I do want solved, but I want to know what's going on with Al and any other demons. I still haven't read the description of this book. I tried to avoid the synopsis. I love the demon parts of the books. Book 6 was my favorite so far. Guess I better keep reading...


message 13: by ♥Tricia♥, Group Lead (new)

♥Tricia♥ (siddie) | 1167 comments Mod
I havent read any of the threads since I dont wanna get spoiled /grins

But I do plan on reading this series! I got the first but damned if I cant get to it! lol

I keep putting it to the side because of other books. I migth have to start it soon lol.



message 14: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments I didn't get much farther in WWBC after all, so I'm still where I was. My mom got laid off from her 10+ year job today, so she needed my support. I just spent an hour figuring out how to help her apply for unemployment. :(

So I plan to curl up in the Hollows later to hopefully relax some. Maybe I can get in another chapter. I'm only a little farther along than where Shannon was a few hours ago.

Tricia--I've heard several people say that they've had trouble getting started in the series, but I really recommend sticking with it. The plot and characters are superb!


message 15: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) Sarah wrote: " ...Tricia--I've heard several people say that they've had trouble getting started in the series, but I really recommend sticking with it. The plot and characters are superb! ..."

I've heard the same thing actually. I liked all the books but some people have only gotten into it after book 2 or 3.

Sorry to hear about your mom Sarah - that sucks!

I'm in the middle of ** Chapter 12 ** and am getting really worried that Kisten's death won't be solved in this book! I don't know how I feel about it being dragged out into another book. There's still a lot of book left to read so I'm trying to keep my hopes up of some sort of answer.




message 16: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments WWBC, pg. 260--just finished chapter 17.

I'm wondering what the focus of this book is really supposed to be. It started with Kisten's death, but seems to be venturing toward Rachel's purpose in life after learning of her demon "heritage", so to speak. It doesn't give anything away to say that Al appears in chapter 16.

Shannon, you're coming up on a part that made me cry and really have a greater appreciation for Rachel as a child. You'll know when you get to it.


message 17: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) ** mid chapter 15 **

I read the part in the children's hosptial last night. I cried! It gave me a better appreciation of Rachel - and every other child out there that has had to go through that type of battle.

I'm getting frustrated with the lack of direction myself - we have finding the banshee, helping the ghost, solving Kisten's murder, Rachel's self discovery, Rachel's relationship with Marshal, need I go on??? I have enjoyed all of the sub-plots but am curious what the MAIN plot is as well. I am really hoping to find an answer to Kisten's death. I think Rachel, Ivy & myself need to move on from that topic & have resolution - it's going to get played out soon.


message 18: by Sarah (last edited Feb 27, 2009 04:29PM) (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments General series note:

Before anyone reads White Witch, Black Curse, I highly recommend you read Kim Harrison's short story in Holidays Are Hell. It will add greater understanding to the novel's plot if you do.

Holidays Are Hell


message 19: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments WWBC, page 353--just finished chapter 23

Can I just say I love Rachel's mom? She may be half batty, but she always knows exactly what Rachel needs. No one else--besides maybe Jenks--would be so supportive of her after she'd been shunned.

And what exactly is Jenks' problem? He's been very tempermental in this book.


message 20: by Shanon (last edited Feb 28, 2009 02:21PM) (new)

Shanon (boban) ** just finished chapter 18 **

I don't know what's up with Jenks - he's hiding something big though it seems. Either that or with the death of Matalina coming he is realizing he won't be around to take care of Rachel anymore. He is WAY against Pierce, trying to push Marshall on Rachel (not a bad thing I think), and being much more opinionated about Rachel's decision. Don't know.


Although, let me just say, I wish my husband and I were ley line witches. I want to try that push-pull thing. Oh, my!


message 21: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments I have a theory about Jenks, and I don't think he's going away anytime soon. I can't remember if I read it on Harrison's site, or if I heard it in an interview... but she said at one time that in one of the past books, she hinted at a way to keep Jenks alive past his normal life span. I'm thinking of the time Rachel and Ceri twisted a curse to make him big. Was he human then, or just a large pixy? Did or would that extend his lifespan?? What do you think?

Also, I like Pierce. Too bad we don't get to see much of him yet. :(


message 22: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I don't know - I would assume it made him human since he didn't have the wings anymore. When Rachel twisted the curse to make herself a wolf she had side-effects (no more freckles or scars). Maybe changing Jenks had some longer effects too. Although, for Jenks, that may not be a good thing - watching your wife, kids & potentially grandkids all die of old age would be tough.


Nichole (DirrtyH) (dirtyh) Yeah, if Matalina dies, I don't think Jenks would want Rachel to extend his life and if she did it, it would be very selfish.

I agree that making him big made him human, because he was eating human food and was able to withstand the extreme temperatures, which was the whole point. I also seem to recall something about his heart rate changing? Though that could just be size related, but it seemed like he had become human.


message 24: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I totally forgot about his heart! He was worried he was dying because his heart rate was so much slower.

I don't see Jenks choosing to live longer UNLESS he could provide the same luxury for his family. I'm only about half way done with this WW,BC so there's still a lot left - but I think if Matalina is going to go it will be in this one (SO NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT CHAPTER). Maybe there will be some huge twist & Rachel will save the day again


message 25: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments I was thinking along the lines that the past curse already affected his life span. Honestly, there's no way Jenks would want to outlive Matalina and his kids. He'd never choose that intentionally; he's too much a dedicated family man. It's so sweet how he's always looking for things to bring her to make her feel better.


message 26: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments WWBC, chapter 24--

I'm feeling rather random tonight, so here's an apropos-of-nothing comment. I love so much about this series, that I almost forgot the one thing that kinda irritates me. At the risk of getting pelted with pixy dust, I'm going to say that I'm very tired of Ivy's awkward struggle with bloodlust. Why is Rachel expected to grow as a witch, and Ivy hasn't grown as a character much after she bit Rachel? When will Ivy develop past her hangups? Her scene with Skimmer in the prison shows me that she hasn't evolved much, and her declaration of swearing off blood seemed rather juvenile.


message 27: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) Sarah I totally agree with you. Ivy tried the no blood thing before & it failed, miserably. To attempt it again is/was foolish. I keep hoping Ivy will find peace with herself but I don't know if it's going to happen.

Just finished ** chapter 23 ** and I have to say I have a new hero - Rachel's mom. That lady is so is awesome! She is accepting of her daughter & knows just what Rachel needs to hear. You could feel Rachel begin to heal from all the turmoil in her life with just that one conversation in her childhood room with her mother. It's good to see someone supports Rachel 100% despite & because of everything that has happened.


message 28: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments WWBC, mid-chapter 27--

I think I judge the goodness and badness of characters in Rachel's life by just the point Shannon made. If they always make her feel awkward and bad, then they aren't helping her. If they make her feel all free and accepted, then they are just what she needs to grow as a person.

No spoilers this post, but I'm under-100 pages to go and not seeing a "main point" to this book. I don't see and end to Matalina (thank you!), no resolution to Kisten, and well, no point at all but the hunt for the banshee. I've really enjoyed the book, but am still left wondering where it's going.


message 29: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) Sarah wrote: "If they always make her feel awkward and bad, then they aren't helping her. If they make her feel all free and accepted, then they are just what she needs to grow as a person.
"


So which category would you put Ivy in?


message 30: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments Right now, I'm putting Ivy in the "bad for Rachel" category. If Ivy doesn't grow up soon, she's going to keep Rachel in stasis. Rachel will always hang back to protect Ivy. Enabling! That's what it is. If Rachel continues to protect--and IMO, coddle--Ivy, Ivy won't ever be able to move past all the harmful things that Piscary did to her psyche.


message 31: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments Huh, don't you love it? We're talking about these characters like they are real people! LOL!


message 32: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I think that's the sign of a good book/series. They ARE real in our heads. I've had several series (book & TV) that I have felt for - a real emotional connection. It's good writting at it's finest.


I would put Ivy in the bad category as well. She needs to get a handle on who she wants to be before she can help anyone else.


message 33: by Shanon (last edited Mar 02, 2009 11:38AM) (new)

Shanon (boban) Just finished...



All I have to say about Marshall is that I am really mad at him! Rachel isn't but she should be. He didn't even ask what happened that got her shunned - he just walked away. I think the thing that gets me the most is that he made her feel guilty for his hurting over HER shunning! AAARRGGHH!

I'm not sure how I feel about the resolution of Kisten's death. I think it's because the girls couldn't hunt down the killer themselves - I guess I'm into revenge....

I like Peirce - and I definately need to read the story in Holidays Are Hell. I wish I would've read it before. That will teach me to not read anthologies huh!

I am really hoping that the next book focuses on Ivy so that there can be some resolution to the awkwardness between her and Rachel. I'm getting tired of the whold blood/relationship thing going on there.


message 34: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments Just finished WWBC myself...

And that, folks, is why I wasn't sure I liked Marshal. Why was he angry at her? He knew she was white! And she doesn't feel resentful of his desertion at all. She understands? Please. I'm not THAT forgiving.

Sad that Rachel's mom had to move away, since she was becoming a solid support system. I wish Robbie could've been more supportive. Maybe we will see a healing effect on Rache's mom, and she will become a stronger support from afar.

The resolution of Kisten's death was rushed. I would've liked a little revenge, Shannon, more than the weird scene we got. Of all the things for Rachel to voluntarily use a black curse on, it was burning dead guys? Strange choice, especially after she'd just watched Edden talk Ivy out of doing something similar. I am intrigued by the way Ivy's aura can shield Rachel. Wonder what that means?

Do like that Kisten retained his soul and memories at the end, even if it made me want to cry all over again.

Can't wait for you to read Pierce's story in the anthology, Shannon. Please post here again when you do. I think it will be fun to watch Al chase someone else the way he used to chase Rachel. Especially since Pierce seems to be a match for him.

Did you not bust out laughing when Al acted all shocked that Rachel called him to talk and not to save Pierce? "But he's Rachel candy!" Too funny that even Al knows her weaknesses in men.

Trent needs to grow up. At least he sent the Pandora's thingie so Rachel could get her memories back. Probably Ceri's doing. Kinda missed her in this book.

All in all, I still really like this series! Wonder when the next one is due out?


message 35: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) Sarah wrote: " I think it will be fun to watch Al chase someone else ..."

I am totally looking forward to having more Al in future books. I think he likes Rachel - and not just because she's the future for demons. I have a feeling reading about the interactions between Al, Pierce & Rach will keep me laughing as much as Jenks. I'm expecting to see a VERY jealous Al if/when Rachel & Pierce pursue a relationship - especially if it's right in front of Al!





message 36: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments Wonder why Al was so sure Pierce would kill her?
And what was in the chrysalis?

I think Al likes Rachel, too, if for nothing else than she keeps him busy and not bored. Al is sort of the Rachel of demons, I think. He's a little renegade, a little slapdash, and not too well respected by his own kind. And he'd totally hate seeing Rachel and Pierce together!


message 37: by Sarah (new)

Sarah  | 276 comments Found a short interview blurb with Kim Harrison talking about the focus of White Witch, Black Curse. Some minor spoilers. Seems this book marks the beginning of a new story arc.

http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=c...


message 38: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) Finally finished and I loved the story. It seems I love each of these books more as the series continues. I also just read through the previous posts in this thread and I'm surprised but there were many things I felt completely different about.

First, I think Ivy is progressing, wonderfully so even. She held on long enough to not attack Rachel when she desperately needed blood. That is control. Her and Rachel worked well together, not arguing, backing each other up. I think Ivy is trusting in Rachel. She's obviously considering Rachel's offer to become a witch by some of the questions she asked towards the end of the book.

Second, I thought Kisten's story was wrapped up well. Kisten was allowed revenge and I thought that was more fitting than Rachel and Ivy getting revenge. I think his sacrifice made his final act of saving her just further proof that he did love her. And his soul showing up at the end seems just a part of setting up Rachel to save Ivy. And the final scene was grissly, which was great, and I have no pity for Denon.

Third, I did not blame Marshall. I think if he had really loved Rachel, he would have stuck with her. This way, she won't waste her time on a hopeless relationship.

I also have to state that I can not stand Rachel's brother. He really rubbed me the wrong way. I also missed some characters but I loved seeing more of Bis and Al. I'm rather tired of Trent (he needs to grow a pair) and I absolutely love Pierce! Finally, someone who matches Rachel and I am very excited about what will happen next. I am bothered that he was introduced in an anthology. I am rather sick of authors including critical information about a series storyline in an anthology. I will not be reading the short story due to annoyance and stubborness. Besides, I know what happens in the story!


message 39: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) Hey, sorry that was so long:) I just really loved this book! Spikes all sorts of emotions in me!


message 40: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) Oh, sorry, two more things, I also absolutely loved Ford. I was very happy with that storyline's end. And I love the pixie children and the new ice machine!


message 41: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) Kathryn wrote: "I am bothered that he was introduced in an anthology. I am rather sick of authors including critical information about a series storyline in an anthology..."

Absolutely! I'm not a big fan of anthologies because I'm not interested in reading short stories that belong to series' I haven't been reading. I have read a couple anthologies but end up just picking out the authors I have been following.

I'll be reading the back story on Pierce though. I loved watching the interaction between him & Rachel and would like to see more - besides, it will be a good way to pass some of the time before the next book is released.

Ivy did show more control over her bloodlust - but I don't know if that is much progression in 7 books?? I'm hoping future books will focus more on her growth.

I didn't like Rachel's brother either. He's definately in the BAD column for me too!



message 42: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) I don't know, I might change my mind about the anthology because like you said, it might be awhile until the next book comes out and I would really like to contitnue with these characters now!

And Ivy, I just felt like she didn't vamp out like n the other books. I feel like she is learning self control and now she just needs to learn to like herself, which won't happen if Rachel changes what type of Inderlander she is!

When I finally went to sleep last night, I kept thinking about this book. COuldn't get it out of my head!


message 43: by Dawn (last edited Mar 04, 2009 11:20AM) (new)

Dawn (dawnv) So I just finished the book and while there is a tone of sub-plots I still liked it. I really like how Rachel stays true to herself and even when she makes bad decisions she deals with it and keeps moving.

Anyway I am not sure if I agree or disagree about Ivy needing to mature the one thing I think I wanted was a resolution between Ivy and Rachel – this book does not have one and while I do not mind f/f relationships to me they seem like best friends who are loving and accepting of each other. Not to mention while Rachel seems to find Ivy attractive she does not seem to want her physically – outside of the vamp scare in which case anyone will do. I mean even when she sees Trent she talks about how sexy and beautiful he is not to mention how she seems to notice all of his habits. (Can you tell I am hoping for a Trent/Rachel HEA?)

I also thought that Jenks was snappish and I guess I would be too if I was watching the love of my life dying even though we all have to accept it does not mean that we have to be nice about it.

As for Marshal ugg good riddance – while I did not like the way her relationship with Marshal ended I was glad to see him go. I mean what a jerk in one moment he is like no one can tell him what to do because he is own man then a chapter or two later he is like oh sorry I am leaving because I cannot deal with community pressure. The back story on Pierce was really good and it is interesting that Rachel compares all men to him. I also love the idea that he gives Al a run for his money and can I just say I love Al! he is so crafty I love him. But I also think it is interesting that Pierce may have something to do with Newt and her craziness.
Now here is where I am confused - I did like that Kisten got revenge first but I am still not understanding the whole Rachel twisting a curse using Ivy's aura thing. I mean what does that mean and why did she burn the bodies? Why not let it be known that Kisten was not bested not even at the end?? And my only complaint is why do we have such a minor character? I mean I have been waiting like three books to find out who did it – how come it could not have been like a Newt or something.

Wow sorry this is so long :>



message 44: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) Kathryn wrote: "I am bothered that he was introduced in an anthology. I am rather sick of authors including critical information about a series storyline in an anthology..."

I am so with you I like to read the books not the short stories. Plus I typically do not like anthologies.



message 45: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) Dawn wrote: "But I also think it is interesting that Pierce may have something to do with Newt and her craziness.
..."


I am very curious what Pierce's history is as well. Al asked Rachel if she knew who Pierce was at one point. There's a history between Pierce and the Demons that I am looking forward to getting to know.





message 46: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) Dawn wrote: "why did she burn the bodies? Why not let it be known that Kisten was not bested not even at the end?? "

I am so with you on that one. Rachel burning and sealing the room is the one thing I did not understand in this book. It made no sense to me.

And I always hoped for something between Rachel and Trent too but not any longer! Pierce sounds to be much more promising!

My guess about Pierce is that he is the male version of Rachel. I might be wrong, but wouldn't that be great! She definitely wouldn't become bored and if Pierce can escape Al, who I also love:), then I do not think that Rachel will be concerned about her actions killing him.



message 47: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) I am interested in Pierce but I want to know why Al think he wants to hurt Rachel. I was thinking maybe Pierce is a demon hunter and since Rachel can birth demon children maybe that is why Al was concerned that he would kill her?

Also was anyone else disappointed we did not see what Al has been teaching her in the ever after?


message 48: by Shanon (new)

Shanon (boban) I always watching Al and Rachel interact. But I think with everything else going on in the book it would have been overkill to introduce too much more.

I also missed Ceri - she's pregnant & I would like to know how that is going. We got some bits of Trent but not much as well.


message 49: by Kathryn (new)

Kathryn (kathry) There are probably too many plot lines going on but I guess I really don't mind too much. I hope the next book focuses on Rachel, Al, and Pierce because I want to know what AL's teaching too.

But of course, Ivy and Jenks have too much going on as well. And since Pierce knew Trent's father, I bet Trent and Ceri show up more.

I agree about Pierce being a demon hunter. Since he was on that ethics and moral committie thing, I bet he helps remove Rachel's shunning, eventually. I just don't think he's going to be all hard core morally anymore, at least not by society's standards. He just seems too familiar with Al, almost accepting like Rachel is. He was enjoying tricking Al, almost playing with him.

Sorry, I like speculating about future books, even though I tend to be far off.


message 50: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) Kathryn wrote "Sorry, I like speculating about future books, even though I tend to be far off."

Oh I do the same thing especially in a series where the characters don't change.

You know with all the was happening I did not really notice Ceri missing that much.




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