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The Name of the Wind (The Kingkiller Chronicle, #1)
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KKC Theories > Folly is Cinder's sword.

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Gavin The sword, Folly, in the Waystone Inn is Cinder's sword.

Has that that been cleared yet?


Eric | 99 comments Gavin wrote: "The sword, Folly, in the Waystone Inn is Cinder's sword.

Has that that been cleared yet?"


It's been discussed but there's just not enough data, at least for me.


Ions | 210 comments ditto. there isn't a lot of information about Folly, and even less about Cinder's sword.

care to elaborate?


Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Based on the description of it, I always assumed that Kvothe had renamed his own sword based on his horrendous mistakes. Also, since the scrael are coming in the present time in the story, I expect the climax of this story to happen the same way. I don't think he has had a final meeting with the Chandrian yet.


Ions | 210 comments I have nothing to support this, but I assume Ambrose is the king and those weird spider things are of his designs.

I'm sorry I can't back any of this up, but it's just a gut feeling I get... since details about the king and those little guys are sparse

:-)


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Considering Kvothe is surprised that the Scrael got past the Stormwal, I doubt that Ambrose invented them.

If he is King he'd most likely be the King Of Vintas.


Gavin elaborate:

pg 53 - But when the light touched the sword there were no beginnings to be seen. In fact, the light the sword reflected was dull, burnished and ages old. Looking at it, Chronicler, remembered that though it was the beginning of day, it was also late autumn and growing colder.

pg 126-127 - His sword was pale and elegant. When it moved, it cut the air with a brittle sound. It reminded me of the quiet that settles on the coldest day in winter...

His eyes were like his sword, and neither one reflected the light...

As you can see, different words, but same description. The word, folly, also reminds me of Cinder.


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I actually disagree this is the same description

In fact, the light the sword reflected

vs

His eyes were like his sword, and neither one reflected the light...

Though Folly doesnt reflect light the same as glinting shiny sword, its still reflecting light. Just dully.



(outside of that though, I'll consider the possibility!)


Ions | 210 comments oh shit, I forgot about the storm wall part. ok well I'm glad I got that over with.


I still think Ambrose is the king though.


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I could go with that.

I'll give that their is plenty of possibility it isnt Ambrose, but it would be most satisfying if it were him and Kvothe f'cking killed his ass.


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Ions | 210 comments since it's vague at the moment, I imagine the dent in the concrete at the university is Kvothe killing Hem, and Amberose is king.

I'm dying to know what's actually the case.


the sword still baffles me. I don't believe its the Adem blade. I don't think its cinders either. In my mind the Adem blade is in the thrice locked chest, along with his Shaed.

I don't think his power is locked away, I think he just doesn't use it so that no one knows he is Kvothe. but, I doubt that last bit somewhat. damn I want all the books, now! LMAO


Gavin Ions wrote: "since it's vague at the moment, I imagine the dent in the concrete at the university is Kvothe killing Hem, and Amberose is king.

I'm dying to know what's actually the case.


the sword still baff..."


I like points 1, 3.5 and 4!

As for a new question though... because of this talk of Cinder, swords and the Adem... Are the Adem children of the Fae?


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I dont think the Adem are really related to the fae. They were a nomadic people before they settled in there area. They only settled there because they knew no one would want the land and they made mercenaries their trade.

The fae is like...another realm altogether. From what I gather its a whole other dimension if you can discribe it as anything.


And yah, I'm sorta dying for the next book too and I'm not sure what I think about Folly!!


Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Ions wrote: "oh shit, I forgot about the storm wall part. ok well I'm glad I got that over with.


I still think Ambrose is the king though."


But both Sim and Wil know who Ambrose's father is, and they discuss how many people would have to die before he would become king. I don't think he is the king.


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I think Ambrose is at least a possibility.

But if you count that then theirs no disputing the possibility its Sim as well.

Plus, theirs another poet king that Vashet mentions

Theirs the Barrow King which we've probably yet to meet.

And no telling if one of the Chandrian is a king.

Not to mention the possibility of any number of other kings.

I've even read a theory where Kvothe is the king he kills, which is kind of amusing to consider....LOL


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Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
(since it's vague at the moment, I imagine the dent in the concrete at the university is Kvothe killing Hem, and Amberose is king.)

I would enjoy Hemme being killed, but he's more of an obstacle, I think killing him would be over the top.

A fair few people have suggested Ambrose being King, it's logical, currently there are 12 people ahead of him, some kind of natural disaster (albeit incredibly coincidental), but one part of me rebels, it would be too convenient and lazy writing.

As Amber suggests, we don't know enough about ANY King, not one to start inferring things.


Hendo | 1 comments I was just rereading NotW and the first thing I thought when I got to the "Folly" scene was, "Is that Cinder's sword?" So I googled it and here I am a year late to the game lol Anyway, I'm surprised nobody mentioned the inscription Ben wrote in the book he gave Kvothe. "Remember your father's song. Be wary of folly." And that song as we know was "Lanre" About Lanre and the Chandrian.


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Possible.
The problem is, we can't be sure Kvothe didn't name the sword Folly because of what Abenthy wrote.
There is nothing to suggest that the sword was named Folly before Kvothe had it and vice versa really. So it's hard to make any speculation around it.

Though I have had some similar thoughts considering the pot from Trebon.

I've also considered that maybe he just used that sword to kill his king and he wants to have a reminder that what he did was wrong.


Moonshadow | 10 comments Folly might not be the sword's name. He could have just given the sword a title, as he has left that part of his life behind him, as it hasn't done him any good.


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
To title something is to give it a name...


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Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments I have always toyed with the idea that, Kvothe made Folly. He showed/has an interest in creating/crafting things. His "thrice locked chest" shows he is skilled at crafting all manner of things.


Michael Hawk (mehawk) | 66 comments Since my first reading I have always felt that Folly was Caesura remade by Kvothe as a shaper. The name may have only changed later after he did something, perhaps when he earned the name Kingkiller or something he truly regretted.


Brandon | 74 comments Folly can't be caesura. Since K had to fake his death he would have arranged that the sword be returned. If he didn't have it returned he wouldn't be "playing" dead very well. Since he is very keen on details he would have arranged for it to be returned to Ademre after his fake death.

Personally I have never considered it being Cinder 's sword, but it very well could be. I do like the idea that it's cinders


Michael Hawk (mehawk) | 66 comments "Can't be" is kind of strong since there is nothing in the narrative that supports that. He may not feel he has any reason to hide from the Adem, they do seem to take keeping secrets pretty seriously. I doubt they would be running around talking about how he can't be dead as his sword did not come back.

It seems Kvothe did not feel the need to hide from Skarpi either. And lets face it I don't think Chronicler would have gone on such a search if there were not some irregularities with Kvothe's death.

Not saying my guess is better or worse than any others, but it's not impossible based on what we know.


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I agree that "Can't Be" is a strong assertion.
But the text does assert that all Adem weapons are to be returned upon death and that it is Kvothe's responsibility to be sure his is returned. He has a thousands of years old weapon, if their was a rumor that he was killed, you don't think the Adem would come looking for a sword that has been passed down since Drossen Tor?
Because I do, I don't think they would publicize it necessarily, however it seemed pretty clear in the text, at least to me, that this what the Adem do. Their weapons are all they have as a legacy. It would be an affront to their culture not to return the sword upon death as the oral tradition and the recitation of their history would then be missing a piece.
Kvothe also, actually DID feel the need to hide from Skarpi. He made it explicitly clear that if Chronicler left, he wouldn't be at the Waystone when he made the return trip. Bast is the one who sent out the clues and hints that Kvothe was alive, he didn't know who would come or what would happen.
And I have to disagree with your characterization of Chronicler, he was already passing through the area to do some writing for the Duke. He checked out something that Skarpi heard a rumor about and is explicitly described as a rumor monger and collector of stories. He had nothing to lose in checking into the rumor and it wasn't his express reason for being in the area anyway.


Stacia (InUffishThought) | 6 comments Hi - new to the boards here. I am probably not going to explain this very well, but I thought that Folly was not the name of the sword - the sword is caesura, and the word 'folly' on the board was a reminder of Ben's "Be wary of folly" advice. To his mind, Kvothe has screwed things up pretty badly, and rushing in with his sword and willful pride was exactly the thing that he should NOT have done. Having his sword on the board with the word folly is a reminder of why he is in the Waystone in the first place, and a way of chastizing himself daily (like Amber said above)

The reason I thought that folly was not the name of the sword is that when Graham mentioned that folly was an odd name for a sword, Kote kept his face "carefully blank" and didn't agree or disagree.


Michael Hawk (mehawk) | 66 comments Stacia wrote: "Hi - new to the boards here. I am probably not going to explain this very well, but I thought that Folly was not the name of the sword - the sword is caesura, and the word 'folly' on the board was..." I hadn't thought of that, I like that perhaps hes come to the conclusion that to resort to the sword is "Folly" (Will hold on to my own beliefs until proven wrong, but I do like it)


Brandon | 74 comments Okay can't be is strong, but with his training in Ademre and the importance they put on these swords, K wouldn't dishonor what they taught him and hold onto it when he had to fake his death. Just makes sense, plus the swords aren't similar in description.

As for it being Cinder's sword, if that is the case the choice oh name is interesting. Could tie in with the theory that the Chandrian are not the "bad" guys K makes them out. He could have killed Cinder and taken his sword but later learns it was a huge mistake or Folly. So he keeps that to remind himself how far he went to ruin everything he meant to protect. Eh probably BS


Michael Hawk (mehawk) | 66 comments I hate these back and forth sessions and I am not sure why different ideas always have to be called "wrong" here, rather than just different, but there are some assumptions you are making that I just don't think are fair so I will address this one last time. I think the term "wrong" should be limited to things proven wrong by the text, not assumed. Anyhow, last pass for me on this one.

Yes, the Adem expect their swords back. They also know Kvothe better than anyone, with the possible exception of Elodin, at the University. We don't know what happened to make people think Kvothe was dead, but there must have been some questions about a body as he is still using the original. Knowing his power, his privacy, his wit and general habit of doing the unexpected, I believe a group of people who survive by reading an opponent might very well have seen this death as the feint it was. And, if they didn't, who is to say that someone did not come looking into the death of a student. Someone asking about his belongings, specifically a sword, which was the thread to get Chronicler started unraveling this.

As to Skarpi again, just because he now has reason not to trust him, does not mean Kvothe did not trust him or other people early on, believing the best of them. (This must be one of those named logical fallacies I should remember from Critical Thinking but don't)

I am definitely willing to concede Chroniclers nature, I think that was more my reading that he was going more than the usual out of his way, but I guess this story would be worth it.

I just want to say a lot of why I have this theory has to do with the descriptions of the weapons themselves. Caesura was best he had ever felt. But when you get the description of Folly (if that is the name /nod to Stacia) it is described, to me at least, as a perfect weapon, or as Rothfuss puts it "a sword in its pure form." The alchemy description seems to be what a shaper could actually do achieve this end. And the two seem to be made of the same un-marred, yet old metal.

Brandon posted again as I was ranting, so to be clear, I'm not claiming the same sword exactly, but just the same metal. The same way Kvothe states he feels entitled to rename Caesura, I think as some point he comes into the power to shape, and then re-shapes Caesura to a new form, possibly called, Folly.


Brandon | 74 comments It's possible. I just have never seen Folly as the same sword I guess, even on my first read through. Kote's current state seems to reflect that he has muted power and as a result he is no longer out adventuring or needing a sword. The Adem will return their sword if they are no longer able to fight or dead. Kote seems to be in a state where he would not draw a sword against another, and Kvothe is suppose to be dead. So I always assumed the sword was back in Adem. He could have shaped it though, to disguise it maybe? And is waiting to spring some trap as mentioned in another theory by Bill, I believe. If someone from Adem knew about this they would not search the sword out I guess. I don't know though, he admired that sword so much I can't see him altering it. He says an awesome line in the book that I will butcher but it is to the effect of "to love something despite. Knowing the flaws and loving them too, that is love."


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Stacia (InUffishThought) | 6 comments Michael wrote: "But when you get the description of Folly (if that is the name /nod to Stacia) ..."

Thanks!


Stacia (InUffishThought) | 6 comments Good discussion! He could have sent caesura back to the Adem, but I feel like they are the same sword for a couple of more reasons. First, they are both described as being made of the same dull, grey, unmarred metal - and I don't remember anything else being made of the same stuff so it's a pretty strong coincidence. Second, when Bast asks him what he was thinking when having the board made, he basically says that he is trying to avoid second guessing himself.

While he did fake his death, I doubt that the Penitant King etc would know enough about the rules for the swords of Ademre to try to find out if he did send his back, and thus if he is still alive or not. I'm sure the Adem wouldn't point it out.

As for his muted power, yes. However he does start practising the Ketan at the end of WMF. Bast seems to hope that his status is self-imposed and he can choose to go back to his old self (at least in part). It just doesn't seem like it is entirely a done deal.


Manda | 115 comments A few things.

The sword on the wall of the inn has a different handgrip than Caesura. Chronicler notices this and Kvothe affirms it is not the same sword.

Kvothe describes Caesura's blade as similar in appearance to Vashet's and at least one other in Ademre. I got the impression they were all made of the same metal and exceptionally old/important to the Adem.

I can't see Kvothe shaping Caesura into a new sword. It just seems disrespectful, like he's stealing from the Adem.

Bast is disturbed by the sword on the wall and before they hung it up, he kept it hidden under his bed.

Perhaps Kvothe took this sword from the angel he killed? I agree that Folly doesn't have to be the sword's name. It is likely a reference to Ben's warning.


Brandon | 74 comments Some of the Adem swords are ancient, thousands of years. Cinder's would have to be just as old considering the stories about the chandrian. So it is likely it is the same type of metal as caesura just with a different handle


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I agree with Manda, it would be absolutely disrespectful for Kvothe to reshape the sword. Those aren't just swords to the Adem. They're historical relics they use to pass down their history from generation to generation, that's why they want them back when you die or retire.

We really don't even know if Caesura is made of metal honestly. It was shaped at Drossen Tor.
Not smelted or forged. Shaped.
It could literally be made of anything.

I agree that most people probably are not aware of Ademic customs, but I kinda agree with Michael, they're not impossible to discover. They're are 100's, probably 1000's of ademic mercenaries in the four corners, many take employ with royalty and high status characters. Vashet makes it pretty clear she discussed a number of customs with her employer King, and that was without threat or serious request. Not to mention the possibility that information can be forced out of people, something that's definitely not beyond someone like the Maer. Kvothe doesn't make his time in Adem a secret, so it stands to reason, especially if his death was suspected a fake, that someone might be asking. Obviously Chronicler was, so that's a fair point in my opinion.


Stacia (InUffishThought) | 6 comments Manda wrote: "A few things.

The sword on the wall of the inn has a different handgrip than Caesura. Chronicler notices this and ..."


Good point, I had forgotten about that part. Kvothe says it is not "Kaysera. The poet-killer" at the time I just thought he was saying that the name the boy said was wrong, but now after reading that part again I agree with you.

I didn't get the impression that Bast was distubed by the sword itself, just that he was surprised that Kvothe hung something so important behind the bar.


Gabriel Bueno | 33 comments Stacia wrote: "Good discussion! He could have sent caesura back to the Adem, but I feel like they are the same sword for a couple of more reasons. First, they are both described as being made of the same dull, gr..."

Not only do I believe it is a different sword (as Chronicler made pretty clear), but I somehow have the impression that Denna is sealed in there.
As Manda said, Bast was disturbed by the fact that Kvothe wants to hung it up, and had it hidden from him under his bed.
Kvothe gets angry when Bast carries it carelessly and says it is a lady (or something like that). Kvothe seems to be strangely fond of it, unlike other things that remember him of his past.
I've had the impression that his love was in there since the first time I've read and I still keep it.

Maybe now it's just me hoping that Denna isn't dead, but at least it's an idea different from what I've seen here.
(I think it is an entirely unknown sword btw, not Caesura ou Cinder's)


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Okay, I didn't want to bring it up since it wasn't really my theory, but my boyfriend thinks that exact same thing and I have to admit, the argument he's presented to me at least, wasn't bad and was actually rather convincing.

I did a little research to see if such a thing has ever been used in fantasy before, read about Anomander Rakes sword, Dragnipur, (haven't read Malazan, it's on the to read) doesn't seem ridiculous and is clearly a functional story model. Not that I think it necessarily works the same, just wanted to know if the groundwork had been laid for believability. (I make up words, sorry)


Sophie (notemily) | 50 comments Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Bredon's name means "sword." Except he isn't a lady, as far as we know :P


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Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Bredon, Faen Cross-Glamourer.

These books are just chalk full of diversity.
LOL!!


Gabriel Bueno | 33 comments Amber wrote: "Okay, I didn't want to bring it up since it wasn't really my theory, but my boyfriend thinks that exact same thing and I have to admit, the argument he's presented to me at least, wasn't bad and wa..."

What arguments he's presented? I'm curious.


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Tj | 17 comments Ions wrote: "since it's vague at the moment, I imagine the dent in the concrete at the university is Kvothe killing Hem, and Amberose is king.

I'm dying to know what's actually the case.


the sword still baff..."

I think when Kvothe changed his own name to Kote he lost his power. During the last conversation with Elodin on the bridge Elodin freaked out when he thought Kvothe changed his name. When he was talking about Denna changing hers all the time.



Thomas Hodgkinson | 1 comments I should start by saying that i am pro Folly=Cinder's however, I have a different justification for the matter. My theory stems from something the Cthaeh said "Why did they leave you alive? Why, because they were sloppy, and because you were lucky, and because something scared them away". focusing only on the because they were sloppy piece i feel this is where the name Folly comes from. Kvothe was Cinder's Folly, if he had killed Kvothe that evening he would still be alive or at the very least still have his sword. of course much of this is speculation however going off of the description of Folly and the one of Cinders sword, plus all other tid-bits of information that have been put together, i feel this is ultimately a very strong theory. Still unfortunately it is just a theory and until The doors of Stone comes out we wont know for sure.


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Flouro | 3 comments Well, the sword is not Ceasura. In TWMF we have the following: "“I can’t help notice that your description of Caesura doesn’t . . .” Chronicler hesitated. “Well, it doesn’t quite seem to match the actual sword itself.” His eyes flicked to the sword behind the bar. “The hand guard isn’t what you described.”

Kvothe gave a wide grin. “Well you’re just sharp as anything, aren’t you?”

“I don’t mean to imply—” Chronicler said quickly, looking embarrassed.

Kvothe laughed a rich warm laugh. The sound of it tumbled around the room, and for a moment the inn didn’t feel empty at all. “No. You’re absolutely right.” He turned to look at the sword. “This isn’t . . . what did the boy call it this morning?” His eyes went distant for a moment, then he smiled again. “Kaysera. The poet killer.”"

So, it must be some other sword.


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Michael Hawk (mehawk) | 66 comments Well Flouro to use your logic, it never was Kaysera either, that was just another incorrect name for the blade, just as Kvothe declared the Adem's own two thousand year old name to be wrong.

WMF Ch 25 "Saicere was a fine name,...But it wasn't the perfect name. This swords name was Caesura...it was both the name and the thing itself. I can't tell you how I knew this. But I knew it."

And since the name defines the thing in his view, I still submit that he remade, and renamed Caesura into Folly. But only book three will tell us the story of Folly. Which of course means I agree with you, it is not Caesura...but I think it was :)


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Flouro | 3 comments Well, I can accept that option. I mean, it is a great idea. If Pat doesn't use it, I will when I write my book XD !
I think we will need to know what El'the really means.


Thomas Odom | 1 comments I believe a hint of the name of the sword actually comes from the performance that won Kvothe his pipes at the Eolian. I believe that the song 'The Lay of Sir Savien Trailiad' is suppose to have intentional parallels to the relationship of Kvothe and Denna. The last line of the song says, " I cried for Sir Savien and Aloine, for love lost and found and lost again, at cruel fate and man's folly."


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Eric Roethe | 4 comments I couldn't say anything with certainty, but I don't think its Cinder's sword. If I were betting, I'd also doubt it is the one he received from the Adem, reshaped or not.

Personally, I find the Adem, and their swords, quite interesting. I picture them as Viking Samurai. I have no idea if PR saw it, or if its just an interesting coincidence, but I watched a documentary about a specific group of viking swords forged from steal with a purity that wasn't duplicated for 1000 years. This is the basis for my best theory. I picture Folly is made of something similar. I for see K finding something in the Archives stating that the Chandrian, can only be killed by a specific steel. K forges/shapes a special sword for that very purpose. That's my best guess, for what its worth. I guess time will tell.


Slick | 54 comments I think he just renamed his sword in some sort of black humor.
Im eager to see how Pat ends this series, book 3 is suposed to be shorter than book 2 but he as so much to do?

The Chandrian are still around for one thing, the Skrael, the, war, killing of the king, kill an angel, be kicked out the University, once the Sithe find out about the Cthaeh they will come for him.

Is it definitely a Trilogy?


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Alan (Alantroll) | 11 comments I remember it is said clearly in the book that Caesura is eventually returned to the Adem, and you can't "modify" anything of an Adem sword not even rename it, as they are sacred for them. Kvothe can only add his story to the ones before him over more than a thousand years and I feel it will be a short story, considering that the first thing he does with it is slaughtering a fake edema ruh's troupe. That's not very much 'Lethani' I guess and Kvothe knows he shouldn't use a sacred Adem sword for the wrong purposes, out of respect for the Adem. I think that Kvothe will "turn to the dark side" at some point and when he realises of that he will return Caesura back to Ademre.

Folly is a different sword for sure and I can't wait to read its story.


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