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The Archives > Kvothe: His Rings and Names

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message 1: by Lik-hang (last edited Oct 25, 2012 01:30AM) (new)

Lik-hang Chan (zzchanli) | 7 comments Just a matter of curiosity rather than anything else because the information provided in WMF provide little room but for pure speculation.

I recall this poem initiated by Aaron and completed by Kote in one of the many interludes.

"On his first hand he wore rings of stone,
Iron, amber, wood and bone.
There were rings unseen on his second hand.
One was blood in a flowing band.
One of air all whisper thin,
And the ring of ice had a flaw within.
Full faintly shone the ring of flame,
and the final ring was without name."

From reading through Elodin's naming classes a ring is bestowed upon the Namer after mastery over the *object* is achieved. In the case of WMF, Fela was seen to master the name of stone and thereby received a ring of stone.

That leads me to my first point of order; (1) What does this nameless ring signify, and how did Kvothe obtain mastery over blood?

Also WTF specifically pointed out that the hand on which the rings were placed had special significance.

“Left hand [for “speaking” the name]. The right hand means something else entirely. None of you are anywhere near ready for that.” (WMF, 317)

Now counting the number of rings reveals a number greater than 5 meaning that there is possibility that Kvothe had rings on both hands. I wonder what this all means...


message 2: by Rachel (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Perhaps the other hand is for Shaping (which was the other great art)?


message 3: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I was thinking the Without Name ring might be shaping.

But you have a good point Rachel.

I didnt remember that part where Elodin said the other hand was for some other sort they werent ready for yet.

Maybe mastery over blood is something like blood bending? (You know from Avatar Last Airbender)

Or maybe he's a crazy killer.


message 4: by Rachel (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Ah, yes blood bending. I have an awesome picture of my daughter as Katara for Halloween about 4 years ago. Once she started bending blood, she got much cooler for me. But I have a special place in my heart for Toph. I mean, metal bending. Come on. That girl is bad ass.

But back on topic, that is sort of what I was envisioning with the blood thing too.


message 5: by Eric (new)

Eric | 99 comments I assumed the ring of blood was his link with the Edema Rue. They're represented by a closed circle (a ring) and they're his blood.

Could be more literal, though.

The wood and bone rings could easily be those given to him by Meluan and Stapes. Even the iron ring could represent his time in Vintas. The only one on his first hand that doesn't make sense is the ring of amber.

I have considered one hand meaning naming and one meaning shaping, but we don't have much evidence of that. And I have such an aversion to the idea of shaping that I don't want to associate it with Kvothe as a protagonist. But that is a childish notion that I should probably reevaluate.


message 6: by Ions (new)

Ions | 210 comments could the nameless ring represent felurian? he is was the first mortal to survive his time spent with her. and he called her name when they first met.


message 7: by Rachel (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Could be Felurian, but I don't think so. The ring doesn't signify that you said the name, the ring signifies mastery over something. When Fela created her ring of stone, she had called the name of stone intentionally (not by accident like Kvothe with the Wind and Felurian), and was able to do it because she had gained the skill and knowledge to do so. I don't think Kvothe ever had the opportunity to gain that level of knowledge and skill over Felurian.


message 8: by Ions (new)

Ions | 210 comments ah! well never mind then, lol


message 9: by Rachel (last edited Oct 26, 2012 02:47PM) (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Besides, what would a Felurian ring be made of? Not sure I want to know the answer to that question. "And on this finger you can see my ring made of Felurian hoohah." :X

LOL


message 10: by Ions (new)

Ions | 210 comments I don't know what pre-coffee me was thinking.

but I wouldn't skoff at a ring being made out of an idea, or memory, or even a promise. but yes, now that I'm awake it sounds like one of the more far-fetched ideas I've come across on these boards, lol


message 11: by Rachel (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments I agree, it is fantasy, so you really can't scoff at those things.


message 12: by Ions (new)

Ions | 210 comments Auri gifted Kvothe a wooden ring on their meeting just after he called the wind for the first time.

I only noticed it because of this topic. make of this what you will
:-)


message 13: by Rachel (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments And I think Meulan Lackless gave him one too.


message 14: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Iron, amber, wood and bone.

Wood - He has both the Lackless ring and Auri's.
Bone - The Maers manservant, the name escapes me at the moment.
Amber - Hmm.
Iron - Maybe over mastery of Iron we've yet to see but these rings seem mundane.

Elodin did say that the left hand was for something else entirely that noone was ready for. At first, I thought it was a joke about marriage but I think it refers to shaping as opposed to naming.

The ring of blood, I think refers to his power to name a person. For instance, he spoke the name of Felurian, perhaps he'll learn to hear other peoples names.


message 15: by Lik-hang (new)

Lik-hang Chan (zzchanli) | 7 comments Amber ring in WMF was mentioned to give power over demons


message 16: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Maers Manservent = Stapes

Iron rings should also give him some semblance of power over "Demons"

So having both might be cool if you had to go off to Fae a lot.


message 17: by Nutria (new)

Nutria | 3 comments I've been lurking for a while but thought I'd share something I just found and see if people have talked about it or not. This is my second time through the books and enjoy the speculation. This has to do with the Kvothe/Kote name issue.

In Chapter 67, "A Matter of Hands", Kilven is speaking to Kvothe after the Fisherie burns and uses an idiom to emphasize bad luck. Here is the passage:
___________________________________________
"You seem in a good mood, Master Kilvin,” I said cautiously, wondering what painkiller he’d been given at the Medica.

“I am,” he said cheerfully “Do you know the saying ‘Chan Vaen edan Kote’?”

I tried to puzzle it out. “Seven years ... I don’t know Kote.”

“ ‘Expect disaster every seven years,’ ” he said. “It is an old saying, and true enough. This has been two years overdue.” He gestured to the wreckage of his shop with a bandaged hand. “And now that it has come, it proves a mild disaster. My lamps were undamaged. No one was killed. Of all the small injuries, mine were the worst, as it should be.”
_________________________________________________

Has this been mentioned before and if so what thread can I find it in. I tried searching the threads and couldn't find anything on the Kote=disaster point.

Any suggestions?


message 18: by Nutria (new)

Nutria | 3 comments Nevermind - Sorry found a bunch of postings and will peruse those. Move along, nothing to see here.


message 19: by Ions (new)

Ions | 210 comments I'm on my third listen and didn't catch that little bit. thanks for pointing it out!


message 20: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
LOL - yep, a lot of people think that Kote translates into Disaster.

Which seems pretty likely to me.

Isnt nice when something makes sense for five seconds LOL?


message 21: by Rachel (new)

Rachel (RachelSessum) | 113 comments Based on what Kilven said, I always assumed that Kote meant disaster. And since he renamed his sword "Folly", I think that is in keeping. He said in the books that he started the war, so it makes sense.


message 22: by Rula (new)

Rula | 3 comments Interesting point no one seems to have mentioned is Kvothes apparent supernatural strength. He stopped bast cold in his tracks just by grabbing his wrist, in the start when Chronicler and Bast first meet. This could probably be accomplished a few ways. He might have done some sort of binding, he might have power over demons as has been suggested above? Maybe something to do with the bone/blood ring? Just random thoughts..


message 23: by Eric (new)

Eric | 99 comments Rula wrote: "Interesting point no one seems to have mentioned is Kvothes apparent supernatural strength. He stopped bast cold in his tracks just by grabbing his wrist, in the start when Chronicler and Bast firs..."

Yeah, the section is highlighted in my Kindle. But I didn't really know what to think of it. The idea that he could manhandle one of the Fae doesn't seem particularly likely.


message 24: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I disagree. Kvothe is an accomplished artificer and conducting yourself in such an environment is extremely laborious.

I was just reading last night over the part where Kilvin is examining Kvothe's Bloodless Device and Kvothe personally notes how ridiculously stong Kilvin is. Being able to pull his stirrup crossbow easily into place and load it.

I actually personally own one of these crossbows...I love weapons...and its seriously outrageously hard for me to load with a bolt....I'm not joking about that crap either, its like a two person freakin' job in my world, but I'm not particularly strong either. However, Kvothe suggests that loading this weapon himself has been rather painstaking.

Anyway. I agree Kvothe is strong. I think his knowledge and practice of the Ketan plus his constant presence in the Artificery are perfect reasons however as to why he'd be stronger than the majority of people.

Coupled with the fact that in most fantasy lore related to fae, especially D&D, something Pat has noted is an inspiration for his novels, fae arent actually particularly strong. I mean, their are those who are stronger, but most fae are more cunning and intellegent, vs strong. IN fact in the game the highest intellegence a human can have is 18 (for a game stat) vs a Fae who can gain Int stats far higher even past 20 (thats really f'ing good if you dont know about RPG stats) Fae are also really far more tricky than strong. They use their dexterity, intellegence, and charisma to overcome their foes usually in Role-Playing. I cant imagine its much different in Pat's novels. The fairly inocuous fae, such as Bast and Felurian probably arent overly strong. More likely, imo, they are dangerously smart or powerful by means of "magical" ability.


message 25: by Allen (new)

Allen Tsai | 71 comments Doesn't Bast maul those two brigands? Or was that left to our interpretation? I seemed to have the impression that Bast was physically strong as well. Maybe that's just his name, bahahaha


message 26: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
From what I remember thats left up to our interpretation.
I'm not saying Bast doesnt have magical capabilities, I'm just saying I dont think he's particularly strong as far as physical strength.
Who knows what kind of weird crap he can do. We've already witnessed the power Felurian could muster and that was pretty awesome.


message 27: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
It was left to interpretation although strongly implied.

I agree, the fae are called the fairer folk in other literature, not just elves...


message 28: by Andrzej (new)

Andrzej | 14 comments It's hard to say anything about rings which Kvothe was supposed to wear. We all know that lot's of stories about Kvothe were made by himself , we know that stories have a tendency to get bigger with time , and above all we know that poems have to have a rhyme , so for example ring of amber could be add to that poem only becouse of a rhyme.

But if that's not the case , I have two theories :
- amber could refer to mastery over thunder ( amber is quite well-known of its electrostatic properties );
- first hand is for mastery over matter , things that don't change over time , when second hand is for mastery over phenomenons like wind , cold ( ice) , fire . I have no idea what kind of mastery would ring of blood represent , but I think that blood ring or ring without name have to refer to kvothes mastery over living things .


message 29: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
The thunder (or rather, lightning) idea is an interesting one.

The two different hands thing doesn't seem likely to me. Elodin told everyone to pick a basic name to learn, like fire, water or wind.

A general idea amongst us lot is that the right hand is for naming and the left hand is for shaping.


message 30: by Meenam (new)

Meenam | 12 comments A few thoughts I had after reading everyone's posts.

The amber ring: Kvothe mentions that while he was listening in on stories in Tarbian, at the end of WMF just before he runs into Denna during her asthma attack, that "apparently, I had a ring of amber which gave me mastery over demons" or something close to that. I'm guessing that story gave rise to that ring.

As for Bast not being strong, he slammed his fist on a table hard enough to splinter the table. That implies a fair amount of strength. I'm thinking his ability to stop Bast from Falcon Punching Chronicler into the next town has more to do with his training with the Adem. During his little skirmish with Shehyn, Kvothe tries to throw her only to find he could not budge her (which seems odd to me that a healthy 16 y/o boy can't lift a small old woman). I don't claim to know anything about martial arts and what is or isn't possible, but it sounds to me like knowledge of the Ketan allows for some seemingly super human abilities (at first glance anyway).

Lastly, the blood ring. Personally, I'm thinking this ring comes from his working of what Shehyn called "blood magic" that he performed on the bandits. The story likly was spread around how he defeated all those people, and "how" he defetead them got distorted over time. Not surprising considering it took place in Vintas where people are naturally supersticious. But that's just my guess.


message 31: by Meenam (new)

Meenam | 12 comments for those unfamiliar with the Falcon Punch, I highly suggest checking out this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyoEX...
Makes for a good visual.


message 32: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
As for Bast not being strong, he slammed his fist on a table hard enough to splinter the table. That implies a fair amount of strength.

I'm not saying the Bast is some weakling, sorry if I came off like that. You know how shit can be on the internet.

I just dont think he is supernaturally strong. Splintering a table by punching it, certainly isnt supernatural. I've literally seen a drunkard do that in real life...plus, we have absolutely no idea the actual quality of the table or the wood used to build it.

Your point about the Amber ring though is interesting, I really didnt remember that and I think its completely plausible that some of the rhyme is actually incorrect. Since pretty much all the other ones seem to fit that mold.


message 33: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Meenam wrote: "As for Bast not being strong, he slammed his fist on a table hard enough to splinter the table. That implies a fair amount of strength. I'm thinking his ability to stop Bast from Falcon Punching Chronicler into the next town has more to do with his training with the Adem. During his little skirmish with Shehyn, Kvothe tries to throw her only to find he could not budge her (which seems odd to me that a healthy 16 y/o boy can't lift a small old woman). I don't claim to know anything about martial arts and what is or isn't possible, but it sounds to me like knowledge of the Ketan allows for some seemingly super human abilities (at first glance anyway)."

After, y'know, a long time, I came to the conclusion that he didn't splinter the table. Kvothe introduces him to Chronicler as a glamourer, which we know to be true on account'a his hooves. He notes, when he gives Chronicler the holly crown, that he doesn't have much grammarie. Reading his fit with that in mind, the exploding crow routine seems like illusion. And if that is, why not the table, the ink and the beer? At the end of it everything's fine. Bast's hands are alright and there's no mess.

That's not to say Bast isn't quite strong. That's established the evening before when he shoulders Chronicler. Then Kvothe grabs him across the bar and immobilizes him, leaving a ring of bruises.

The martial arts are somewhat unrealistic. But it's not unusual for some smallish old master to easily make a fool of a sixteen year old boy. Throw me. Hit me. Why are you breathing hard? You've done nothing.


message 34: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
I lol'd at Falcon punch.

Bast being weak *does* make sense. Felurian said that the Fae walk among humans in many cities but they fear the time they will be trapped in our world without their powers. So makes sense that Bast loses his powers outside the fae realm.


message 35: by Andrzej (new)

Andrzej | 14 comments thistlepong , I also noticed that martial arts are unrealstic. This whole Adem/martial arts thing is weird , uncool and I dislike it very much. It just doesn't fit to so otherwise well written book.

And about Kvothe stopping Bast. He didn't use strenght he used some Adem technique. I'm sure of it . Patrick is a fun of Aikido and i think that Adem martial arts resemble a little bit Aikido.

And probably Aikido is source of Patrick confusion about Martial Arts and fighting in general.


message 36: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Actually I read something the other day about Pat studying all kinds of different martial arts. (I cant remember how many, but I know its in the double digits)

I always likened Adem to asia actually and thought of the Lethani, the Martial arts, and especially the Ketan as something like Tai Chi.

But Akido could fit too - just never thought about it. I try not to think about Akido too much because I hate Steven Segal.

Anyway - I liked the Adem part. Thought it was very original and something different from what I usually read in fantasy. If I had to choose any part I got bored during WMF I'd have to say it'd be the part with Felurian. Not sure why really - but that part never holds my interest all that well.


message 37: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
I agree, Felurian bit was interesting for one chapter, she's a sex demon... then it just dragged on. Pat can sometimes annoy me with his writing about woman.

I liked the Adem parts, I didn't think the martial art parts were unrealistic and I've studied a couple. What made you think they were unrealistic?


message 38: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Oh, as for the idea of Amber being the demon summoning, we all remember that part in the story but it doesn't seem right to me. The ring poem seems less legendary and a bit more factual... maybe not completely, but someone said the blood would be his blood magic, who would know about that? They just thought he was Taborlin the great calling down lightning...


message 39: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Oh, as for the idea of Amber being the demon summoning

when I first read that I was really confused because I thought you were talking about me...LOL. Gosh...stupid rock name.

Yah, Felurian was okay. She tells him a few cool things and he gets sweet cloak. The rest was just really drawn out for me, I kept waiting and wanting to get on with the story and go back to the 4C's LOL. I thought the best part about Fae was The Ctheah and its such a small part.


message 40: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
I'm pretty sure it was strength that held Bast back, and that Bast's casual slinging of Devan suggests that he, and by extension Kvothe, is surprisingly strong. There's no "casually reach over a bar and stop a pissed off fairy" technique. YMMV.

Let me say that the martial arts are fine, mostly because they're smerped and nonspecific. A reader can get by on a few kung fu movies or even a little experience. It's written convincingly. I enjoyed it.

But it's not realistic. I don't so much have a problem with that. I trained for years in one art and I'd claim experience in maybe four. However, I've been part of discussions that involved MMA fighters and trainers. A few of the basic premises of Ademre and the Letantha Ketan don't hold up under the scrutiny of gear heads.

Amber wrote: "Actually I read something the other day about Pat studying all kinds of different martial arts. (I cant remember how many, but I know its in the double digits)"

I've read a lot, but I don't remember that. Can you provide a source? I've known masters who wouldn't claim double digits. I do remember Akido in a few interviews, though.


message 41: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Oh sure...lemme go find it. It was on his reddit AMA so shouldnt be too difficult.




http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comme...


Okay, not double digits - excuse me...it was 6

thats still kind of a lot though...


message 42: by Daniel (new)

Daniel Marcos (danielms) | 24 comments What if find ridiculous about The Fae part, is the fact that he is a virgin, and 17 years old, and she is thousands of years old, and a freaking sex demon, she's so good at it, that she actually kills people by having intercourse with them... But Kvothe still manages to impress her in bed (Or wherever they did it) because he is that perfect.


message 43: by thistlepong, Master Namer (new)

thistlepong | 340 comments Mod
Thanks, Amber. Makes more sense in context. "Two Karate. Judo. Tai Chi Chuan. Tai Quon Do. Fencing." I'm pretty sure I didn't expand the comments the first time through.


message 44: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new)

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
LOL @ Daniel.

I have to agree. It's sort of silly he isn't killed when they first do it. Maybe Felurian isn't all she's cracked up to be.

God...I could really take this so many rude places....must...resist....GAH!


message 45: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
I thought the death was the repeated dosage of the good lovin'... He's not even 17, more like 15 then so... personally it seems Pats masculine side is coming in and he reckons he was ace as a young 'un LOL


message 46: by Michael (last edited Dec 20, 2012 04:52PM) (new)

Michael Hawk (mehawk) | 66 comments I think the strengh is like the shattering wine bottle, and the perfect step. They are all bits of the real Kovote breaking through whatever has turned him into Kote.

As for Bast, my gut tells me hes strong. He was going to fight through a binding of iron along with the events others have mentioned. I got the impression that was not so much some sort of magical resistance, but more about sheer physical strength and Kvote clearly feels its suicide for a mortal to pick a fight with one of the Fae.

Anywho, whole book left I don't see why everyone thinks we should be able to name all the rings when we likely have not met them all yet.


message 47: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Michael wrote: "Anywho, whole book left I don't see why everyone thinks we should be able to name all the rings when we likely have not met them all yet."

Yeah, I agree but we're just speculating. Kvothe has just got mastery over wind, if you can call it that. Who even knows if he learns another name!


message 48: by Ions (new)

Ions | 210 comments I always interpreted his failures as active efforts on his behalf not to reveal his true nature. I don't buy the idea that his power is lost or locked away, just that he is reluctant to expose it.
the laughing at the thieves in the tavern to me seemed like an inside joke "I could kill you right now, but what would the town think, seriously, you're already dead, you just don't realize it"


message 49: by Thomas (new)

Thomas Bott | 1 comments Ions wrote: "I always interpreted his failures as active efforts on his behalf not to reveal his true nature.

I have a similar but slightly different opinion. I don't think his power has been taken away from him, but I believe it might have been "locked away" by him himself.

Early on there is an explanation about the difference between seeming, and being, and the way we all tell a story in our own minds. A conversation between Bast and chronicler if I am not mistake.

I think Kote has been seeming as an innkeeper so long he's been weakened by it.
This is somewhat supported by his fight with two soldiers near the end of WMF, he defeats one soldier in the blink of an eye with a couple of well aimed strikes and a kekomi style kick, but the other one crushes him. After the fight he says "I forgot who I was for a second there." suggesting that in the forgetting he regained his ketan based fighting skills.



However I think there is a difference between that and his sympathy, because bast is determind no one question him about his missing sympathy, and in the moment when the descriptions make him seem like himself and he tries to open the thrice locked chest he still fails to unlock the third unseen lock. That might be more than a sympathy lock, but it suggests some powers are beyond his reach even near the end of WMF.



As to stopping bast dead when he grabbed him, I think there is more going on there than pure martial strength. The martial arts is perhaps a bit exaggerated but not so completely exaggerated. It's described in flowery language and confused somewhat by the inclusion of the lethani, but I think the bigger issue than the martial arts being "super human" is the fact it seems that guards and protectors in the world outside the Adem have little to no training or even experience in fighting from the way they are written which is unrealistic.
But the grabbing and stopping Basts movement seems out of place as far as the martial goes, the way he talks about martial fighting etc seems different.
The stopping of Bast and the ring of bruises suddenly flowering on his arm after being grabbed it says something else to me. I think it might have something to do with the rings we don't yet understand.


message 50: by Chris, Master Artificer (new)

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
The Bast thing really intrigues me. One theory that comes to mind completely on the spur of the moment is that, perhaps when the Fae designate themselves a teacher, there is some sort of magic in the bond they place between them. So if Kvothe were to tell Bast 'No', he would not be able to do it. It could explain him stopping Bast.

Or perhaps he found the name of his muscles and strengthened them beyond human limits. Who knows with K!

The Sympathy loss seems legit to me. K seems to have really tried to ignite him. Unless it's a REALLY elaborate ploy to make Bast believe it and push him into doing something drastic.


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