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Karen Marie Moning
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message 1: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
For the discussion of the Fever/Highlander series (or anything else by KMM).


message 2: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
I'm so excited about Iced! I love Ryodan and can't wait for more details about him.


message 3: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments I really excited for Iced too--I'm looking forward to more Christian.


message 4: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments What's our policy for spoilers on this thread? Are we hiding everything?

Just in case: (view spoiler)

Possible spoiler for Highlander series, though each book is a stand alone (view spoiler)

I will say this for the Highlander series: the books do get better. They aren't really linked, so if you try the first and don't like it, I'd recommend skipping to the third or fourth.


message 5: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Personally I wasn't going to put the spoiler tag unless it was from ICED. But we'll see what the MODs say ;)


message 6: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
I think I agree with Zeenat. The Fever books have been out for a while, and ultimately, this isn't a KMM group, so use spoilers for Iced for a few weeks, but I wouldn't bother about Fever or Highlander.

So if anyone reading this hasn't read the Fever series already, you have been warned!! Here be spoilers!


message 7: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Her books come out pretty far apart, too. Shadowfever came out January of 2011 . . . and Iced is coming out 21 month's later!


message 8: by Michielle (new)

Michielle | 13 comments I read the Highlander series after the Fever series. But I think it is a must to at least read Adam's book, sorry I can't remember which one that is atm, maybe Immortal Highlander, and Into the Dreaming. Those 2 give some insight into the Fever series.


message 9: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments I definitely think the later Highlander books are worth reading. They keep getting better. I was actually eager to find out what would happen next in the last book, Kiss of the Highlander (Highlander, #4) by Karen Marie Moning

I think that the gap between Shadowfever and Iced was because KMM is essentially starting a brand new storyline. It would have taken her some time to find Dani's "voice" in a way that was less overwhelming than the Fever books. I mean, if I had to read an entire novel written from Fever Dani's POV I'd go insane.


message 10: by Maggie (new)

Maggie (lacr1mation) The Fever series is possibly my favorite Fae books EVAR!!! <3 <3 Dani is one of my favorite characters. What a fecking smart ass! Crossing my fingers I'll be able to read Iced when it comes out.
I read some of the Highlander series. It's very very different from Fever. It's extremely formulaic. & the descriptors in the sex scenes kinda make me wanna barf. What I did enjoy about them was the Scottish history etc. I could not stand (view spoiler)


message 11: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Yeah but her gap between book 4 and 5 was long too. 17 months. I think though shadowfever was long 17 billion books crammed together like fury's kiss lol.


message 12: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments @Maggie That really bothers me about the Highlander series, too. They're all virgins who are suddenly pregnant, possibly single mothers, and they're thrilled!


message 13: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
This is what KMM said in her forum when asked why her heroines are all virgings.

First, Claudia made some excellent points and when I first began writing romance, the readership very much preferred inexperienced heroines.

Second, sex matters. BlueCoyote, I grew up in a podunk town, too, with less than desirable choices, crammed full of small-town gossips. There was no way I was getting naked physically or emtionally there. Also, I had a mother who said "what did he do to deserve intimacy from you? is he that special?" and I love her for the lesson, the confidence that when I did choose to have sex, it would be special.

In a world where "sex is just sex", where every time I flip TV channels and see more than I really wanted to see while eating dinner or hanging out with my young nieces, I recall Neitzsche's call for a drastic re-evaluation of values, and figure I can do my part by not devaluing the relationships I choose to write about with multiple, casual partners. I think the human race is in trouble. I think male and female roles have become so hard to define and carve out in modern society that men and women are having an increasingly hard time making a real, lasting connection with each other. The biological imperatives that shaped our genders are no longer imperative. So who are we, and what matters? There are so many people out there, so many choices at the sex buffet, and I see so many people choosing to gorge unthinkingly while popping antidepressants and wondering why they can't find somebody to love. My advice? Try not sleeping with them on the first date. Grr...

There I am, before coffee again and uncensored....LOL.

Do they have to be virgins? No. But sex will always matter to my heroines. I'm working on the heros. Ironically, the readership seems to prefer their men with a great deal of experience. Is this a double standard we enforce on them? That a man who's a virgin isn't...quite...a desirable man?

Discuss?



message 14: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments I think that was an interesting response. There's definitely a double standard as far as men and women go. I don't think the women necessarily had to be virgins, but I can understand not wanting them to sleep around. But, simultaneously, if the women are picky about their partners and the men aren't, that's implying that men don't care as much or that personal relationships aren't as important to them. I don't know, the fact that all the women are virgins is kind of unappealing to me, especially because it's rather unrealistic.


message 15: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
It's the double standard that really annoys me. It's OK for the men to be experienced (or complete sluts!) but the women shouldn't be. Even in books where the heroine hasn't slept around much, she's had two or maybe three partners at most. It's like the author has decided this is an acceptable compromise between virgin and ho. Yet it's OK for the guy to have had multiple partners and no-one's judging him. I find this to be extremely sexist.

I can concede that historical fiction may have different rules as women weren't quite so available in those days! But it's a bit crappy when a story's set in the modern era with a blushing virgin. It doesn't pass the laugh test for me. (I can forgive Cassie being a virgin, since the geis was a major plot element in the books. She wasn't one just for the sake of it. Dory, at least, seems to have had a few guys over the centuries. And more power to her!!)


message 16: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 03:51AM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Lannister wrote: "Even in books where the heroine hasn't slept around much, she's had two or maybe three partners at most. It's like the author has decided this is an acceptable compromise between virgin and ho."

But don't forget that they were always bad relationships with mediocre sex at best. That way the hero can be the one to show her true pleasure. *rolls eyes*

Also, even if the heroine is a virgin/less experienced, the moment they meet the hero they are turned into a "ho" because with him they jump into the sack after three days.

Oh, how I wish one of the main male characters turns out to be a chainsaw killer and murders the heroine just to show her how stupid it is to trust a (possessive) stranger!


message 17: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "But don't forget that they were always bad relationships with mediocre sex at best. That way the hero can be the one to show her true pleasure. *rolls eyes*"

Yeah, that's so true. No-one ever had great sex before they met the hero who, coincidentally, always has an above average-sized penis. How does the heroine know what's a big or small dick if she hasn't seen any before? Hmmm, maybe she sits around watching porn all day. Why does no-one talk about THAT in books!

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Also, even if the heroine is a virgin/less experienced, the moment they meet the hero they are turned into a "ho" because with him they jump into the sack after three days."

Yeah, it's a bit hypocritical. They've managed to be 'good girls' all their lives, until this one guy causes them to instantly rip their clothes off. Yeah, sure.

Oh, how I wish one of the main male characters turns out to be a chainsaw killer and murders the heroine just to show her how stupid it is to trust a (possessive) stranger!

LMFAO!!!!! OMG that would be beyond awesome! :D Or maybe a story about a vamp who's chased a female all book, only to drain her dry on the last page. Oops! The story finishes ... He threw her desiccated corpse to the floor and left. The End. Man, I need to write a PNR! I can almost hear the howls of outrage from readers already! :D


message 18: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 06:44AM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Lannister wrote: "How does the heroine know what's a big or small dick if she hasn't seen any before? Hmmm, maybe she sits around watching porn all day. Why does no-one talk about THAT in books!"

Exactly! And then the hero pounds his huge cock - which goes all the way up to his chin and which the heroine cannot encompass with her tiny hand because it's so big - ALL THE WAY IN and she just comes like that. Because the clitoris is just there as decoration and completely unnecessary! ARGH!!!!

Lannister wrote: "Man, I need to write a PNR! I can almost hear the howls of outrage from readers already! :D"

If I were good at writing, I'd either do a parody of UF/PNR books or write a serious book with exactly that ending. Just to annoy the UF/PNR fangirls. That would be so much fun!


message 19: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 06:42AM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
This reminds me... Dani will lose her virginity in Iced. Any ideas on who the lucky guy will be? LOL


message 20: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "And then the hero pounds his huge cock - which goes all the way up to his chin and which the heroine cannot encompass with her tiny hand because it's so big - ALL THE WAY IN and she just comes like that. Because the clitoris is just there as decoration and completely unnecessary! ARGH!!!!"

LOL! Why have I never met one of these 'Instant Orgasm' guys?!! I must be doing it wrong. I need to read more PNR to figure out where I'm going wrong!! ;)

If I were good at writing, I'd either do a parody of UF/PNR books or write a serious book with exactly that ending. Just to annoy the UF/PNR fangirls. That would be so much fun!

Maybe Duane will write us a story! :D


message 21: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "This reminds me... Dani will lose her virginity in Iced. Any ideas on who the lucky guy will be? LOL"

I thought KMM said she wasn't going to lose her virginity in the first book? But there will be sex. She's gonna lose it to Dancer . . .


message 22: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 07:52AM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Lannister wrote: "LOL! Why have I never met one of these 'Instant Orgasm' guys?!! I must be doing it wrong. I need to read more PNR to figure out where I'm going wrong!! ;)"

But aren't you at the source of it, Lannister? I mean... Highlanders?!?! ;-)

Zeenat wrote: "I thought KMM said she wasn't going to lose her virginity in the first book? But there will be sex. She's gonna lose it to Dancer . . ."

Oh, I'm sure the virginity thing will happen in the last book. I was just curious who you think it will be before we read Iced.


message 23: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments I have so many issues with the sex part in most books . . . Romance, PNR, or UF. I'll have to talk to my husband, maybe I'm doing it wrong :-P

Dude but seriously, it's stupid. I know it gives people bad ideas--especially those who are not experienced. That makes me even more upset when it comes to YA . . . Young girls (or even not so young girls) expect this, that or the other, and guess what? That's not real life.

I think I wrote a blog about romance before--how I don't think romances are not really romantic. They are just a different type of "fantasy". They make me more mad than anything nowerdays.

I can rant and rave about this for hours . . . .


message 24: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Oh, and I am not a fan of KMM's attitude . . . but whatever . . .


message 25: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 08:21AM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Zeenat wrote: "They are just a different type of "fantasy". They make me more mad than anything nowerdays."

That's certainly true and when I say in discusssions I need more realism, I often get told that it is fiction and only for entertainment. Sure, but if it's taken too far, I cannot take it seriously. I also have to understand the characters' behavior, no matter if it's a paranormal being or not. Same with the sex... But enough people seem to like it.


message 26: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Zeenat wrote: "They are just a different type of "fantasy". They make me more mad than anything nowerdays."

That's certainly true and when I say in discusssions I need more realism, I often get to..."


Without realism it's just alien . . . there has to be some reality aspect to it. That's one of my biggest thresholds for UF. If you take out the fantasy elements, how REAL are the characters and story lines? If they are "real" then I usually love the books. If they are not, then I don't usually like them.

Believability!


message 27: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments I don't like how there's a double standard between men and women, or how blatantly unrealistic romance novels tend to be. I need at least PNR, I can't read straight romance. I get KMM's position on casual sex. I mean, it's not even about being vulnerable around another person. You have no idea if that person is carrying any STI's. Hell, what if you get pregnant? So I get not wanting to sleep around, but I wish the wisdom would be extended to men as well.


message 28: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "But aren't you at the source of it, Lannister? I mean... Highlanders?!?! ;-)"

LOL, sadly I'm not in the Highlands. Clearly, that's where I've gone wrong in life! *plans to move to the Isle of Skye*

Zeenat wrote: "I have so many issues with the sex part in most books . . . Romance, PNR, or UF."

Do you think it's idiot authors or idiot readers? By that I mean are authors just writing to readers' expectations, and therefore the readers are driving the market for unrealistic sex scenes? Some people probably love this kind of stuff because they see it as a fantasy, and who wants a pot-bellied small dick in their fantasy? Personally, I think they go too far into fantasy territory so that it becomes completely un-lifelike. I'd think the best scenes are the ones that have an element of realism that you can relate to your own life (like where you could picture yourself in the scene). Unlike the blushing virgins, near fainting at the size of a large penis, that get written about. I can't relate to that in the least.


message 29: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Claire wrote: "You have no idea if that person is carrying any STI's. Hell, what if you get pregnant? So I get not wanting to sleep around, but I wish the wisdom would be extended to men as well."

This is another big issue as well. That many characters don't use or even think about using a condom. Even before they know that the paranormal being - conveniently - can smell/knows if she is fertile and cannot get or transmit human diseases.

Also, like you all said... The double standard is annoying!


message 30: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments I think it's incumbent upon both authors and readers to change the genre. Authors write to what they think readers want to see, and enough readers buy the books anyway to enforce that belief.


message 31: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 08:42AM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Lannister wrote: "Do you think it's idiot authors or idiot readers?"

No offense to hardcore PNR/UF fans but it's stupid readers. Oh, the discussions I've had about all kinds of topics (sex, sappy males, children, average heroine/gorgeous male, virgins)... The authors give them what they want.

Imagine Curran and Kate break up at the end of the KD series, even if there are good reasons. Readers would freak out. Or the virgin heroine really not liking her first time with the hero, maybe not having an orgasm... Oh, the horror!


message 32: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "This is another big issue as well. That many characters don't use or even think about using a condom."

This is the fantasy element coming in to play again. I guess authors have decided that pausing to slip on a condom isn't romantic and will spoil the scene, even though many people could empathise with that small gesture.

Claire wrote: "I don't like how there's a double standard between men and women, or how blatantly unrealistic romance novels tend to be. I need at least PNR, I can't read straight romance. I get KMM's position on..."

For me, it all comes back to this basic hypocrisy that's existed for centuries: if the guys screws around, he's a big stud, but if the girl does, she's a whore. This infuriates me. Let people be judged by the same standard! So when an author writes about an experienced guy and an innocent woman, I feel they are subconsciously reinforcing this stereotype, that this is the way it should be. That this is 'good' and 'right'. I honestly couldn't care who people sleep or don't sleep with, but it should be a level playing field for both sexes.


message 33: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Lannister wrote: "Do you think it's idiot authors or idiot readers? By that I mean are authors just writing to readers' expectations, and therefore the readers are driving the market for unrealistic sex scenes? Some people probably love this kind of stuff because they see it as a fantasy, and who wants a pot-bellied small dick in their fantasy? Personally, I think they go too far into fantasy territory so that it becomes completely un-lifelike. I'd think the best scenes are the ones that have an element of realism that you can relate to your own life (like where you could picture yourself in the scene). Unlike the blushing virgins, near fainting at the size of a large penis, that get written about. I can't relate to that in the least. "

Chicken or the egg situation. Authors write what the audience wants, and the audience wants what the authors write. Society reflects art and art reflects society.

Claire wrote: "I get KMM's position on casual sex. I mean, it's not even about being vulnerable around another person. You have no idea if that person is carrying any STI's. Hell, what if you get pregnant? So I get not wanting to sleep around, but I wish the wisdom would be extended to men as well. "

I do agree that casual sex like "riley jensen" is a bit troublesome rofl. How many books do we see characters whipping out the condoms lol? Not many. I think safe and "healthy" sex is a good goal to show.

But healthy sex doesn't mean it has to be "special". KMM's attitude feels a bit "high and moral". I think in literature variety is important. Some characters will have tons casual sex (healthily and unhealthily), some will be virginal, and most will be something in between. I like authors who perpetuate a range in their characters, and that includes their sex life and attitudes towards sex.


message 34: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments It's true that variety is important. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have casual sex, but I'm willing to bet most of them use condoms! That's one of my issues in the Highlander series- the way KMM romanticizes the Middle Ages. No, they weren't completely ignorant people, but life was definitely very hard. And disease-ridden.


message 35: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Do they use condoms in the Highlander series?


message 36: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Hey in the Hollows we got small penises ;) LOL Jenks even goes “Hey, dude, I’m sorry about that.”

I like how Cassie's virginity was handled. She had sex with Tomas . . . and it was nice and whatever, but it was hardly "special".


message 37: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Iced teaser.

She squints at me suspiciously. “Dude, what are you? Unseelie or human? What happened to you?”

“Mac happened to me.” She flinches when I say it, and I wonder why. I blame Jericho Barrons, too. If I survive what I’m turning into, I’ll kill them both. Hate ripples through me, dense and black and suffocating.



message 38: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Yes, yes, yes! I was so mad when he was basically forgotten/ignored in the end. Oh, how I wish he'd kill Mac.


message 39: by Zeenat (new)

Zeenat (zeekwon) | 6414 comments Noooooooooooooooooo . . . I don't want him to be turned into a bad guy!


message 40: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (last edited Oct 25, 2012 01:24PM) (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
I don't think it'll stay that way.

He wants to kill Mac. Dani thinks Mac wants to kill her. I wonder if he'll try to convince Dani to kill her first. This might get interesting.


message 41: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments @Sarah no, they don't conveniently because they tend to be in a century when they weren't invented, but not always.

That's a distinct possibility, but she won't kill off Mac.


message 42: by Maggie (new)

Maggie (lacr1mation) Wow. I'm behind.
PNR is incredibly formulaic. Which is why I love/hate it. I get that nice cozy feeling of knowing what is going to happen but, @ the same time it's like really?! Again?!
Dani's gonna loose her virginity? Idk how I feel about this. I mean if KMM describes it in the book doesn't that make us all pedophiles??!
I disliked Mac in the 1st 2 & 1/2 books. The beginning of Dreamfever kills me! I cry every time I read it. I think Mac's progression as a (person?) character is really well written. I love how she goes all bipolar. I really really love some of the quotes & philosophy through out the Fever series. All of the Fae philosophy blows my mind. Thinking in only change vs stasis? Weiiiiiird!! & Sarah's boy Ryodan has some fantastic quotes about good & evil. & of course everything Barrons says EVER!!


message 43: by Maggie (new)

Maggie (lacr1mation) Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ wrote: "Yes, yes, yes! I was so mad when he was basically forgotten/ignored in the end. Oh, how I wish he'd kill Mac."

He? Christian?


message 44: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
Maggie, I think there's some speculation that Dani will lose her virginity in the later books, when she's a little older, but I don't know for sure. Age of consent in the UK is 16, so she can do the deed here legally in two years time!

I find the idea of an ancient, immortal being and a 16 year old a bit icky though. But someone of a similar age or slightly older would be OK.

I take it you'll be reading Iced when it's out??


message 45: by Maggie (new)

Maggie (lacr1mation) I super hope to!!! still working on fk. :)


message 46: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
Well you need to get a move on, missus!! Babies keeping you busy?


message 47: by Maggie (new)

Maggie (lacr1mation) Hell yeah! lol. I think considering that I have twins & have been able to read 3 & 1/2 books in the 2 months they've been here, I should get some kinda bookworm award. :p


message 48: by Lannister, Lady 'Popcorn' Marlowe (new)

Lannister (lannisteruk) | 11249 comments Mod
LMAO! Yeah, it must be difficult, so well done for even managing 3.5 books! (Just be glad there isn't a new GRRM book out or you'd be climbing the walls! Still, the pace he writes at, your kids will probably be starting school before the next book is out.)


message 49: by Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥ , Mircea's Moderatrix (new)

Sarah ♥ Vutch forever ♥  (mylheage) | 5743 comments Mod
Claire wrote: "@Sarah no, they don't conveniently because they tend to be in a century when they weren't invented, but not always."

Ah, I always thought the Highlanders are set in modern times.

Maggie wrote: "Dani's gonna loose her virginity? Idk how I feel about this. I mean if KMM describes it in the book doesn't that make us all pedophiles??!"

KMM said Dani will be 17 at the end of the Dani books and that she will lose her virginity at some point.

I agree with Lannister... If it's with someone closer to her age (when she is like 16/17), it's okay. But Dani and an ancient being (Ryo!!!)... I'd hate that and think it's ewwwww.

Maggie wrote: "He? Christian?"

Yes, I can understand him. I mean, at the end of the last book nobody really cared about him. Poor guy!


message 50: by Claire (new)

Claire (Claire1) | 4511 comments @Sarah A big fantasy element in the books is time travel. So the romances almost always feature a modern woman with an ancient highlander.


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